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Yes I've coma across this before with SBRR. The problem usually arises because originally you get a demand for the full amount and while you think/know you are entitled to the reduction you still have to pay the full rate while it is sorted out. In my view this is the Councils problem as they should realise they may have jumped the gun. If you have now overpaid your rates you can do one of two things - let it roll to next year and get it knocked off or claim it back now, to do this you will have to put your request in writing and a refund may take a few weeks.

 

As for the Bailiff you will need to wait until you receive a breakdown of their fees before deciding what steps you can take.

 

PT

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Hi again,i have now got the paperwork from the bailiffs Phoenix Commercial collections also got an email from the council with the amount which is diffrent from the telephone call that was made this is what the council have sent:

 

Thank you for your email regarding the business rates. I am sorry for the delay in replying.

 

In reply to your queries:

 

1. The Liability Order originally obtained on 2 August 2010 was £730.00

2. The account is fully paid, and due to a direct payment received on 8 December 2010 the account is in credit by £146.60. A refund cheque will be received within 2 weeks.

3 The Liability Order was issued to the bailiff on 24 September 2010, for the amount of £630.00.

4. Payments received as follows: 18 August 2010 - £100.00, 8 December 2010 - £150.00 & 10 December 2010 - £282.37 (payment received via bailiff).

 

This is what the bailiffs have sent:

 

Total £802.37

Paid £802.37

Debt 282.37

Total fees 520.00

Visit fee 1 , 24.50

Visit fee 2 , 18.00

Payment by debit card 1.00

Attendance/van 444.50

Levy fee 32.00

 

 

We write to you with regards to your letter received of which all contents have been noted,

please find enclosed a letter detailing the payments received and the fees incurred for each account.

The Bailiffs which dealt with you account were xxxxxxx and xxxxxxx.

 

could you advise me on my next move as i dont understand what this all means everything seems to be wrong thank you

Edited by IdaInFife
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So basically the council say they owe you £146.60 and the bailiffs say you owe them £520. What they're saying is you've paid your debt to the council (as the council confirmed), but you still owe them £520 in bailiff costs Visit 1+2+debit card+van+levy=£520.00

 

Beofre you rush to pay these check the lgality of them. Visits 1&2 fine; Debit card payment - I'm unsure. I didn't think they were allowed to charge for processing the payment by card, but am not sure; Levy fee - if they levied then this is fair enough, but did they?

Attendance / van fee is a ridiculous figure and should be challenged. Did they ever come to remove goods or actually remove goods in a van. I would guess not the latter and maybe not the former? If you could let us know that would be helpful. The going rate round here for a van attendance is £210.00

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2 threads merged and duplicate post removed - Hallowitch, i also removed your post just for tidy up :-)

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Did they leave a notice of visit - they should. Do you know if there was anyone in the house on those dates? Can you prove if there was? The charges are legal as long as they came. Ask for the Screenshot of your account with them (they will not want to give it to you). This should include who visited, the time of the visit and a description of your house (they'll have problems with this if they didn't attend!)

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hi tingy i am sorry to say this has been paid and no they never took any goods from the shop i never saw a van and the 1st bailiff called the second one who i locked out of the shop he was just passing so he said but he came in when the 1st one called the police so no they never took a thing only my money.

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I live in a flat with a security door he would have to come before 12 other wise you have to use the buzzer and i would be home until 10 every morning and home by 6-6.30 sometimes later i didnt get a letter or anything from this company.

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In that case you need to dispute the van attendance fee. I'm going through the same thing here trying to get back payments already made to bailiffs. They are slippery creatures, but still have to work within the law or pay the penalty for it. Ask them to justify the van fee or you will initiate litigation proceedings. If they end up in court with a CCJ against them they could well be refused a CC License and so would no longer be able to trade, so it is a powerful threat you're making. If they ignore you sned the pre-action letter (I can supply you with this if necessary), then if they still fail to respond take them and the council to court. Copy the council in on everything you send to the bailiffs as they are vicariously liable for the conduct and charges of their appointed bailiffs. IF it gets that far, come back for advice!

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Here you go, didn't take long! There's anothr one I've seen somewhere as well which may help you. I'll have a poke around and see what I can dig up!

 

To:

Acme bailifflink3.gif Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were certificatedlink3.gif at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject access requestlink3.gif under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

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Thanks to whoever wrote this - I saved it onto my computer, so it's not my work, but should be helpful: NOTE IT MAY NEED SOME REWORDING TO MAKE IT FIT YOUR SITUATION - there's the next few stages here for you!

This letter usually recovers unlawful bailiffclip_image001.gif's fees hole-in-one.

The Bailiff Company

Their Address 1

Their Address 2

Their Address 3

Postcode

 

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME + REF]: Your fees.

 

I write following visits by your bailiff however there appears to an irregularity with your fees and I am writing to ask you to provide me the following within seven (7) days:

 

1) The name of the court that issued the certificate for the bailiff in charge.

 

2) Written itemised Breakdownclip_image001.gif of a) your fees, and b) the original debt.

 

3) The name and address of the organisation that instructed you

 

4) a) Truthfully confirm in writing your fees are lawful and comply with legislation or, b) refund me the unlawful fees plus reasonable compensation for being cheated by your bailiff with his fees by midday the seventh day from the date of this letter.

 

A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an arrestable offence under the Fraud Act 2006. Section 2 of the Act specifically describes a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss therefore, if no satisfactory refund is made to me by 12.00 midday seven (7) days from the date of this letter I will automatically file a complaint to police under the 2006 Fraud Act and the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. If you have charged VAT on unlawful fees then you may be reported for VAT fraud and your documents will be given in evidence.

 

Case law requires I recover unlawful bailiffs fees from your client that instructed you. If you fail to make the required refund within seven days I will automatically proceed by filing the claim at court.

 

This is a letter before actionclip_image001.gif and is not a request to access any personal dataclip_image001.gif as defined under the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

This letter is delivered by Royal Mail and deem it good service upon you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It now is your responsibility and in your best interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

YOUR NAME

Copied to: The Mayor and Burgesses of [NAME OF COUNCIL]

If you don't get a refund in seven days then download a Form N1 from the HMCS website. The Defendants are addressed as:

 

THE MAYOR AND BURGESSES OF [NAME OF COUNCIL]

 

AND

 

[NAME OF BAILIFF COMPANY] 2nd DEFENDANT

 

Brief Details of the Claim - enter - Reclaiming unlawful bailiff's fees.

 

Particulars of claim:

I received a bailiff acting for the defendant collecting unpaid council tax. The bailiff dishonestly charged me [£AMOUNT] bailiffs fees contrary to the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 which prescribes £24.50 and reasonable costs for transporting a debtors goods in a van. The bailiff did not move any goods in a van and I did not sign any documents for the bailiff. I have been defrauded by the bailiff who is cheating with his fees and I asked for a refund but it was the bailiff’s choice to keep the money. On 20 April 2007, Lord Lucas in the House of Lords asked HM Government (inter-alia) "whether it would be right for the police to claim that such an action is a civil and not a criminal matter"? Baroness Scotland of Asthal, The Minister of State, Home Office replied: (inter-alia) "A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006". Reasonable costs have been defined by District Judge Advent on the 9th & 24th September 2008 presiding over Case No 8CL51015 Anthony Culligan (Claimant) v 1. Jason Simkin & 2. Marstons (Defendants). The court ruled that "because the bailiff produces no evidence as to how the charge had been arrived then he unable to show that it is reasonable". I claim the sum of [£AMOUNT] and interestclip_image001.gif under Section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year from the date the unlawful fees were paid at a daily rate of 0.00022% per day plus costs allowed by the court.

If you are on a low income then complete an EX160 fee exemption form.

 

File the Form N1 at you local county courtclip_image001.gif. The claim will be defended (with the same old bailiff's ramblings) and the court will send you an allocation questionnaire. Keep all documents and receipts given to you by the bailiff and await the hearing date. Do not be bullied by bailiffs or the council's barrister in the waiting area outside court. You want ALL your money back and you must ask the Judge for it. When the judge has awarded judgment always ask the judge for your "costs of today at the prescribed amount", he'll award you an extra 60-quid on top of your costs.

The Chief Constable

Name of Police Authority

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Reporting a crime committed under the Fraud Act 2006

 

I enclose a document given to me by a man saying he is a bailiff firm [and threatened to commit breaking and entering and take property unless I pay him £AMOUNT]. He charged fees £AMOUNT when the law prescribes a fee of £24.50.

 

The bailiff commits an offence under the 2006 Fraud Act. Lord Lucas sitting at the House of Lords on 20 April 2007 when he asked HM Government whether it would be right for the police to claim that such an action is a civil and not a criminal matter. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal) replied with, inter-alia (quote) A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006 (unquote).

 

Section 1 means by which this offence can be committed is set out in Section 2, on fraud by false representation. This section applies where a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss. It is also possible that, where a bailiff repeatedly charges for work that has not been done, this conduct will amount to fraudulent trading either under Section 9 of the 2006 Act or under the provisions on fraudulent trading in company legislation.

 

The law can provide reasonable costs in respect of bailiffs transporting goods in a van (attending to remove fee) however no goods have been levied and no document has been signed by me. District Judge Advent on the 9th & 24th September 2008 presiding over Case 8CL51015 Anthony Culligan (Claimant) v 1. Jason Simkin & 2. Marstons (Defendants). The court ruled that (quote) because the bailiff produces no evidence as to how the charge had been arrived then he unable to show that it is reasonable (unquote).

 

Any offence committed under the 2006 Fraud Act is an arrestable offence under Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Please assign a crime reference number and I request the crime is investigated professionally and objectively and I am happy to help you in your enquiries and stand as a prosecution witness at trial.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

 

YOUR NAME

Enc: copy of bailiff document giving contact details

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sorry these are the dates that they said they came i never saw them on either date

dates 1st visit 04/10/10 2nd visit 25/10/10

 

And what dates do they list for:

1- Levy Fee

2 Attendance/Van Fee

3 - Your payment(s)

 

PT

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Hi Ploddertom,the dates they have are 6/12/2010 levy fee £32.00 6/12/2010 attendance/van £444.50 my payment to them was 802.37 the extra £1.00 was for debit card fees.

would they have had a court summons if they had come to take away my goods?this i don't understand as he never had any paper work not even a letter from the council all he said was that he didn't have to carry any only his work sheet.

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thank you Tingy the first letter that you supplied was the one i sent they sent me back dates and fees etc the only thing that they didn't supply was the court the issued the certificate they just gave me the web site to check .shall i send them the second letter that you posted?as i do want my money back as every time i look at this statement i feel so stupid that i gave my money away.

scruffpot

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It won't do any harm. As regards your post to PT they have to be able to produce the necessary paperwork, otherwise you have no dealings with him - if you think about it, it could be me knocking at your door claiming to be a bailiff (and I'm VERY scary (not)) so they should have documentation with them.

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It won't do any harm. As regards your post to PT they have to be able to produce the necessary paperwork, otherwise you have no dealings with him - if you think about it, it could be me knocking at your door claiming to be a bailiff (and I'm VERY scary (not)) so they should have documentation with them.

 

You have to request to see the authorisation they have from the Council to collect - it's not automatic for them to produce it. They should however produce their ID as a Bailiff - usually just the Company one, they should also carry their Certification ID and again this should be produced upon request. Unfortunately if you don't know at the time there is no requirement on them to offer.

 

PT

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I know this already may have been asked of you but I can't seem to see it anywhere - might be the time of year and fluid intake or I need a new pair of specs. Did they leave you a Notice of Seizure? Had you paid them prior to a levy being made? They have levied and made an ATR Fee at the same time which is not allowed so the way I see it is that you are owed back a minimum of the £444-50 ATR Fee + the Card Transaction Fee of £1-00. Dependent on your answer to the above you may also be entitled to the Levy Fee back as well.

 

Moving on to other things I am having difficulties in getting the sums to add up from the Council. They say the original LO was £730 & payments including that paid to the Bailiff total £532-37, that to me still leaves £197-63outstanding. Then the Council say you are in credit by £146-60, as you may see nothing seems to balance or have I missed something? I remember you saying your account had been reassessed, if so then you should have been issued with a new NNDR statement/bill - has this happened?

 

PT

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Hi ploddertom,I never got anything from the bailiffs no letter saying they were going to call not at home or at the shop,so no i did not have a notice of seizure and as for a levy would his be a letter or something that i would have signed because i never signed anything or had a letter for a levy infact i dont know what it is but if i had one i am sure i would have known. yes i did get a letter regarding a discount of rate as i am a small business but the letter is in the shop so i cant tell you the exact amount that i pay but i will go and get the letter and let you know,i know it was less that £300.00 .

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Hi ploddertom,I never got anything from the bailiffs no letter saying they were going to call not at home or at the shop,- that's normal practice, the first you usually know is when they knock or deliver a hand posted notice - so no i did not have a notice of seizure and as for a levy would his be a letter or something that i would have signed - Notice of Seizure/Levy Form is the same thing, it's a double sided form that on one side lists the goods seized and on the other lists the charges - because i never signed anything - you may have been asked to sign as the Bailiff can then charge a Walking Possession Fee, but it doesn't have to be signed by yourself to be lawful - or had a letter for a levy infact i dont know what it is but if i had one i am sure i would have known. yes i did get a letter regarding a discount of rate as i am a small business but the letter is in the shop so i cant tell you the exact amount that i pay but i will go and get the letter and let you know,i know it was less that £300.00 .

 

It would be interesting to see the dates on your other form you have from the Council, did you apply for the reduction yourself or was it granted automatically. Regulation 14 (3) of The Non-Domestic Rating (Collection and Enforcement) (Local Lists) Regulations 1989 states:

"(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with."

- please note that the term authority does not necessarily mean the Council.

 

PT

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Hi ploddertom I am going to get all the paper work this afternoon and will post all the dates that i have i am sorry for the delay in my reply .the whole thing is so confusing i cant even get my head around this .

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Ploddertom Happy new year

I have received a rebate from the council of £146.60 over payment

The dates i paid the council rates are

10 Aug 2010 £100.00

8th Dec 2010 £150.00

8th dec 2010 £282.37 via bailiffs

I hope this is what you asked for as i don't have anymore dates if not shall i call the council i did ask them to send me details of payments.

thank you

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