Sale of Goods enquiry

[sparkeyrjp]

This is also in garage services forum , not sure which is appropiate

 

I ordered a reconditioned engine from a supplier , quoting vehicle reg/make / model/engine size

The engine supplied whilst being similar , was not the correct engine, differing in one or two water inlets etc

The supplied engine was supposed to be complete with all bits and bobs , ready to install without having to remove ancillaries from existing engine , what I received was a bare engine , requiring a lot of work prior to fitting. not what I wanted !

Promised documentation was also absent ,

Best part , paid with credit card

So , I am intending to reject the engine quoting SOG Act , give the supplier opportunity to get it right , and if not done claim via credit card supplier

1/ What is the correct amendment of Sale of Goods Act to quote ?

2/ In the first instance , how long should I give the supplier to respond / deal with complaint ?

4/ How do I get the credit card supplier involved if required ?

Cheers

[buzby]

Despite quoting the relevant make model, there are often variations within builds that require the VIN to be quoted to ensure the correct match. If this was not done, then the onus remains with the supplier to subbly the correct replacement. 'Bits and Bobs' are a grey area, some suppliers will provide them as standard whilst others treat them as accessories. Were you providing your existing engine as a 'swap'? If so, it would be reasonable to retain the parts you needed. A SOGA complaint may not be the solution you think it to be, as it may well be fit for purpose simply that your recipient vehicle needs something different.

 

Since your aim is to get the vehicle back on the road, the quickest option is to get them to provide you with the correct engine you require, as only then will you be in a position to assert a stronger position.

[perplexity]

If what you want is a proper replacement the relevant part of the SOGA is Part 5a The time to give would be a "reasonable" time.

 

It confuses the issue to refer to the rejection of goods because there is also the right to reject goods and thereby repudiate the contract. Credit card companies publish their own arrangements which probably vary from one to the other. Presuming that a telephone number is available I would call to ask.

 

8-)

[sparkeyrjp]

Thank you for replies ,

Busby , It was my understanding , , quoting the vehicle reg allows the supplier to access a data base giving the exact details of the vehicle under question , may be not ??

The engine was to have been supplied complete as an outright purchase , and not as an exchange. the seller even joking the existing engine or its parts may still have some value on ebay etc

Perplexity thanks for link

I have now emailed the company concerned , and in simple terms , asked them to fix the problem by sending me the correct engine and as described or a refund .

TBC

[buzby]

Unfortunately, the VRM is hit and miss, as some suppliers use 'best match' to fit a VRM to the probable model of part required. Unfortunately is is ONLY the VIN that provides the actual part required. Some suppliers link the VRM to the VIN, others do not, preferring to supply the first hit, and then only looking at alternatives if the customer complains the part does not match.

 

IME, most take the easy option, but it is haphazard at best - the VIN, matched to the part number is the only safe way to proceed, always assuming there has been no after-market or subsequent modification that could invalidate the manufactrer's record too!

[heliosuk]

Even what Buzby says is open to mis interpretation. Unfortunately the current systems used aftermarket are generalised and don't take into account subtle changes that are introduced as the result of updates that manufactuers have introduced. Braking systems are a favourite of this.

 

I think there might be a bit of confussion here as to what is advertised and what you think you were buying and this problem goes back certainley for more than my 30 + years in the industry.

 

Essentially, unless in the know like me, the general consumer thinks that when buying a full engine they get all the parts such as alternator etc included and it's one out and one in.

 

There are two types of recon that you buy in relation to engines. A full and a short.A short consists of block, pistons and oil pump. A full is a short plus a complete cylinder head and upper and lower covers. What you seem to have bought is a full outright without realising that if it was an exchange then there would be parts that needed transferring over such as manifolds and FEAD parts ( front end accessory driven parts). in some cases this can be the waterpump as well.

 

An exchange would require you to send back the bare full engine for reconditioning less the ancillary bits which is probably the same as supplied to you at the moment.

 

I don't think you have any recourse on the supplier at the moment as what has been described is how the system works in the industry. At this moment in time it seems to be an interpretation of what you believe to be a full engine and what the industry standard actually is which frequently means a tweak to the ancillary components.

[sparkeyrjp]

Even what Buzby says is open to mis interpretation. Unfortunately the current systems used aftermarket are generalised and don't take into account subtle changes that are introduced as the result of updates that manufactuers have introduced. Braking systems are a favourite of this.

 

I think there might be a bit of confussion here as to what is advertised and what you think you were buying and this problem goes back certainley for more than my 30 + years in the industry.

 

Essentially, unless in the know like me, the general consumer thinks that when buying a full engine they get all the parts such as alternator etc included and it's one out and one in.

 

There are two types of recon that you buy in relation to engines. A full and a short.A short consists of block, pistons and oil pump. A full is a short plus a complete cylinder head and upper and lower covers. What you seem to have bought is a full outright without realising that if it was an exchange then there would be parts that needed transferring over such as manifolds and FEAD parts ( front end accessory driven parts). in some cases this can be the waterpump as well.

 

An exchange would require you to send back the bare full engine for reconditioning less the ancillary bits which is probably the same as supplied to you at the moment.

 

I don't think you have any recourse on the supplier at the moment as what has been described is how the system works in the industry. At this moment in time it seems to be an interpretation of what you believe to be a full engine and what the industry standard actually is which frequently means a tweak to the ancillary components.

 

 

A bit more clarification,

I am not being naive about this , I used to prepare and rally my own car so am used to the terminology regarding full and short engines .

Because of this I spoke 3 times to the supplier and on each occasion was at pains to point out I only wanted an engine ready to fit , ie complete with all ancillary components fitted , even in one call listing , injector pump, injectors , starter motor, alternator, thermostats, CAM BELT ( the most important to me ,as I made an expensive mistake once before , getting the crankshaft / cam shaft positioning wrong on another diesel engine ) , to each item the supplier confirmed it was fitted ,and SAID I was getting an engine to fit straight away.

Apart from this , there is STILL the issue of the incorrect engine being supplied , I have since done some extra research and found , that the engine supplied was a version superseded some 2 years prior to my vehicle build date .

I have just received a voice mail message , saying in effect tough luck , not interested , this will get a measured reply asking for a written rejection of my complaint .

The person did say in the voice mail that the engines were only prepared to order, so are non returnable , amazing this , 48 hrs from order ,strip down reconditioning ,and BENCH TESTING , to delivery some 200 miles from supplier

[perplexity]

.... so are non returnable , amazing this , ...

 

Not quite so amazing in view of section 34 of the SOGA:

 

Buyer not bound to return rejected goods.

 

Unless otherwise agreed, where goods are delivered to the buyer, and he refuses to accept them, having the right to do so, he is not bound to return them to the seller, but it is sufficient if he intimates to the seller that he refuses to accept them.

 

8-)

[heliosuk]

How much modification is needed to bring it into current spec exactly. This is not an unusual occurance these days provided the changes are backward compatible i.e. current parts will fit old and are interchangeable. If this is the case then you could be heading for a lot of grief if the supplier can show this is the case and the base engine is no different.

 

Easiest thing to do is raise a dispute with the card co who will reverse the transaction and put it into a holding account. You can't touch it and neither can they but it does get some sort of reaction and the card co makes the decision.

[sparkeyrjp]

I may have been confused by the year changes on the engines , but I have now been able to access the vehicle manufacturer online parts / maintenance database and using my vin number the illustration clearly shows a view of the engine block , showing in particular the area adjacent to the oil filter , on the engine supplied there is a water inlet for the cooling system , this is absent from the engine fitted to my vehicle and the engine block shown on the data base , so the cooling system may be completely different , I would not be able to tell until the engine on my vehicle is completely removed ,

So as stated before , the engine supplied is incorrect

 

From the seller , silence .So considering next move

　

[heliosuk]

What is the engine and car it is to be fitted to? My worry is that you could leave yourself open. The issue is that whilst I think you are correct from what you say you could hit trouble pursuing this if the change over of parts is relatively easy. So for example, are the mounting points of the parts on the block you mention in the same position. What you describe is possibly oil cooler linked and many manufactuers move this position around which mean they are backward and potentially forward compatible. In some cases, when buying from a manufactuer as a recon unit you have to change items over to get it to the right spec. This has been the case for a number of years. Essentially, changes to cooling inlets and outlets on the actual block are highly unlikely as it just cost too much so adaptor plates are made. Is the base engine and head the same without the ancillaries?

Where you could go with this is to throw it into dispute which will take months to sort out or work towards a solution. If indeed the engines are built to order as you describe (LOL) and it is potentially compatible then perhaps go for correcting the problems at a reasonable rate????

[sparkeyrjp]

The engine is for a citroen Berlingo van 2005 1.9D always clearly quoted when discussing purchase

A SIMILAR engine (DW 8 ) is used , in Peugeot Vans , many Citroen cars , Peugeot cars ,Mini Metro , Nissan diesel cars etc so there many variants of the same basic engine,

 

So getting it right would surely be something the supplier would NEED to be careful about , they got it wrong , so why should It be at my risk and loss

Edited December 8, 2010 by sparkeyrjp
edit text

[2Grumpy]

They should be the experts and if there was more information needed they should have requested it.

 

They definitely didn't deliver what was ordered if it was not ready to fit

[sparkeyrjp]

I have tried the reasonable approach , tried the "you have 14 days " approach, had a number of ill tempered (from the seller )telephone conversations ,including a threat of a County Court claim for the cost of the exchange unit not returned , remember this was sold as an outright purchase , so now they have a County Court action sitting on THEIR desks , TBC

[Nev Met]

"The person did say in the voice mail that the engines were only prepared to order, so are non returnable , amazing this , 48 hrs from order ,strip down reconditioning ,and BENCH TESTING , to delivery some 200 miles from supplier"

 

I'm guessing this was said so that they can bypass the consumer protection of the Distance Selling Regs??????

[sparkeyrjp]

Kept quiet on this as I did not want to prejudice any outcome ,

So this morning I had my day in court , and………….

They did not bother to turn up , so after a short hearing , I received judgement in my favour ,

So I expect to saga now to start trying to get the amount awarded to me by the court off the defendant ( don’t hold out much hope !)and suppose the next stage will be a warrant of execution.

In the meantime if you ever come a company called Mycarpart ……

Think twice , they are …. Err …….. , can mislead customers

[perplexity]

( don’t hold out much hope !)

 

Oh dear.

 

Did you make no attempt, before the event, to see if the defendant had the money to spare?

 

The one thing never to do with a legal action, is speculate.

[sparkeyrjp]

A qk question on above , the proceedings were started using MCOL but finalised in court ,will the judgement appear on the online case document so I can continue the action if required ? If not when would the 14 days given by the Judge for settlement of the action commence ?

Orrrr ….. Would I receive a copy of the judgement in the post , all new to me

[sparkeyrjp]

A qk question on above , the proceedings were started using MCOL but finalised in court ,will the judgement appear on the online case document so I can continue the action if required ? If not when would the 14 days given by the Judge for settlement of the action commence ?

Orrrr ….. Would I receive a copy of the judgement in the post , all new to me

 

Thanks for the replies to this , been really helpful ….not !

[sparkeyrjp]

Last word on this ,I received a copy of the judgement as did the defendant I presume ,no response from them

Sent letter to defendant , indicating I would be seeking warrant of execution , knowing full well it would be money down the drain , as the business is carried out as a receiving web address , and orders are passed to another business , BUT the money paid for goods ordered is taken by the Named web company . That is where I had them , no warrant of execution , instead , I went to my credit card company and requested a charge back , this was agreed , and as well as the money paid for the engine , they have also added on the court fees in the judgement , and that is what I will receive back .

So never give up !

[sparkeyrjp]

So, this has reared its ugly head again , the Defendant has now asked the court to set aside the judgement, claiming they failed to receive a change of date for the original hearing , it was pulled forward 2 weeks . it has taken them almost 4 months to request the set aside .

Even though they presumably

1/ they would have turned up on the original date and found the case had been heard , and did not set into motion a action to have the judgement set aside

2/ would have received notification of the judgement , and did not set into motion a action to have the judgement set aside

3/ were written to by me , indicating I intended to seek a warrant of execution , and did not set into motion a action to have the judgement set aside

4/ were emailed by me to tell them I was disposing of the engine , and did not set into motion a action to have the judgement set aside

No, what triggered them into action was hearing from their bank was , I HAD MY MONEY BACK and ignoring me and the court had failed

[sparkeyrjp]

12 December , County Court , and they fail to appear to support their application for a set aside , The Judge rules the application has failed , due to

 

a/ the application was out of time

b/ they did not show up to support the application

 

The sage continues ?

[sparkeyrjp]

The full story is in this thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?286064-Sale-of-Goods-enquiry

A simple sum up with question

I make a purchase last November and find the goods not to be as described

I take a supplier to county court and get a judgement in my favour

With the help of my credit card company I obtain a refund and recover my costs

3 to 4 months later the defendant enters a plea to have the judgement set aside .

The application is refused and the judgement is upheld

Can the defendant use any other means to prolong this?

I asked the Judge , but he was a bit evasive in his answer Yes but no but !!!

[honeybee13]

Does this need a new thread just above the old one?

[sparkeyrjp]

Does this need a new thread just above the old one?

 

By reducing to a few lines ,and the lack of input to the longer thread I hope for more help than the above