Wills/Estates

[johnhowell]

If the estate is worth more than £7000 (I think) then it has to go through Probate. If you have concerns over the actions of an executor/excutrix then contact the Probate Office as they would have to have interviewed them before Granting Probate.

 

Good luck,

John

[nessa100]

Thanks for all your replies. Will study properly tomorrow when I am less tired and can digest everything properly.

[nessa100]

Right, have had a look at your replies and I will now try to respond to the points raised. We are not looking at a large estate here - the bungalow plus whatever cash she squirreled away over the years (Phil's Dad only ever had pocket money and she got stuck to the rest). Although the place next door sold recently for £150K, it is unlikely theirs would be worth that as it's run down, and because she won't allow people into her domain, the central heating system died completely several years ago. We tried very hard to convince his Dad to apply for the grant which would enable replacement, but his Dad said she'd not complete the forms to claim, nor would she allow anybody in to do the work. The bungalow was actually purchased by Phil's Grandad and they paid him for it on an interest free loan. We assume when it was completed the deeds were transferred but whether this would have just been to his Dad or jointly we don't know, although suspect the former as ma-in-law was never their cup of tea either. We can find nothing on the land registry, but all this went on prior to such things being recorded, and in fact it may be the deeds were simply handed over when the loan was complete, and it's still in the Grandfather's name - which would be a laugh as his estate went eventually to Phil's Aunt. To be quite honest, it would amuse us no end if it turned out she was living in a property owned by the dreaded sister-in-law!

So we are not talking a large estate, certainly well under the £300K IHT mark. As for her being removed due to mental capacity - well whilst I could fill a book on things she has done or said which beggar belief (when her own daughter was murdered her response was that she probably deserved it), it is only family (and mainly our little unit) who see her antics. She has been as she is as long as I have known my husband, and he reckons she has always been like it. She simply doesn't interact with anybody else, doesn't go to the doctor, dentist or optician, preferring to get glasses from a car boot sale. When Phil's dad was first taken ill 3 years ago she insisted she'd "treat" him, until he finally collapsed in the August, and was taken to hospital to be finally diagnosed with stomach cancer. When he did go in it was by ambulance, and she didn't want us to know anything (we live 160 miles away incidentally). My brother is a paramedic, and although he didn't attend, she felt those who did would tell him and he'd tell me. Apart from the obvious factor that they wouldn't have known he knew the patient, even if he attended himself he couldn't have told us. However, her bee in the bonnet led her to ring my Mum who she hadn't spoken to since we got married to get her to stop my brother letting us know. Obviously, my Mum told me because as she said she could not have lived with herself if Phil's Dad had died then, and she knew he was in hospital but hadn't let us know.

All we really want to do is see the will. If every last thing was left to her, then so be it. If she doesn't ensure the appropriate people are told, well be it on her own head if somebody eventually collars her. However, if Phil's dad left anything whatsoever to Phil as a memento, he is entitled to have it (or if she has disposed of it so he can't, the equivalent monetry value of it -not that this is what he'd want though).

I just find it astounding that somebody dies, and there is no obvious attempt by any government bodies to insist that probate IS applied for, and that a copy of the will is sent to them to form part of public records. Surely they have an interest to make sure any tax which could be due is paid, and without a copy of the will shouldn't Phil's Dad be declared intestate, and have his estate subject to distribution according to any rules there?

[honeybee13]

Hello again. I've just re-read your initial post and you seem to be saying that a will existed but you couldn't get hold of a copy. That's not the same as being intestate, which I believe is dying without leaving a valid will. Have I missed something?

 

My best, HB

[PriorityOne]

Mental illness in the elderly is very difficult to define sometimes.... but your post raises a number of concerns. My own Mum had very little interraction with people and on reflection, I can see why that was now. It's far easier to live an insular life than risking people seeing what you don't want them to see about yourself and ask questions.

 

In my Mum's case, it was very sad... she had experienced a lot of loss and bereavement in her life (including my Dad) and I think it tipped her over the edge at some point. I wish I could have supported her more but I was far too young to know. Had we (sister, brother and I) realised, then we would have done more but unfortunately, we believed her to be eccentric at best for years. It was only when things deteriorated that I was honest with myself and accepted that I needed to get her to a GP; which I managed to but through trickery. I spoke to the GP and explained my concerns and he suggested I booked a health check for her because she would accept that and go along.

 

I doubt you could do the same with your Mum-in-law at this point though, as she sounds very cantankerous. My Mum was like that too; came out with very inappropriate comments at times and thought everyone was against her, talking about her, etc. It went on throiughout my life and I found it very painful to be thought of like that.... It's still with me now, if I'm honest. My mum would have seen us on the streets rather than help financially, had thousands upon thousands stashed away (through inheritances), two unmortgaged properties and lied about the lot. She pleaded poverty for years and I believed her and helped her but when the truth came out, I felt sick at the way I'd been used. You could argue that it was her money and she could do with it how she pleased.... and I agree with that but up to a point. However, I sank to an all-time low and was homeless with my young daughter for 3 months for reasons I won't go into here or we'll be here forever.... yet she wouldn't help me. I still struggle with that fact nearly 17 years on....

 

After her Will came out, I was on there but only because my step-father disagreed with the Will before that one; cutting us all out. I inherited a lot of money from my mum when she passed but it sat in the bank for months untouched, despite the need to pay things off and get straight. My sister and brother viewed it differently and blew all of theirs; sensibly I might add, but blew it anyway. The effect these things can have on a person is very odd at times....

 

Apologies for the long post..... it just seemed relevant to what you're going through.

 

[nessa100]

No you haven't missed anything. There is a will which was drawn up using a will writing company, who, in simple terms, do just that. They are not solicitors, they simply help people to prepare a will which clearly interprets the clients wishes, and they provide witness signatures to that will. A fee is paid and their job is effectively done. They may keep a copy on their computers but I assume will only provide a copy to the executor (if asked), not to just anybody who turns up with a copy death certificate.

We know Phil's Dad had his own copy, but bearing in mind what I have said, she has it and will clearly not provide us with a copy, or more probably, she has destroyed it, in her quest to ensure nobody knows what is in it other than her.

She knows there is a will, we know there is a will, but how does whoever would declare a person intestate know there's a will, if nobody follows up on an estate when the death is registered?

I know it is hard to comprehend, but this is a woman who would totally disregard what people may tell her concerning her duties as executor, because it would conflict with her belief that her business is her own, and as she would see it, everything that belonged to her husband would be hers regardless of any minor bequests he may have made.

[PriorityOne]

They may keep a copy on their computers but I assume will only provide a copy to the executor (if asked), not to just anybody who turns up with a copy death certificate.

 

They should have a copy..... yes. If you know who they are, ring up and ask how you can get a copy; what they need to see, etc. They may tell you that you need a solicitor though.

[nessa100]

Thanks also for your comments PriorityOne. I have known my husband for 36 years and throughout that time we have tried to understand what exactly is wrong with her. She does have some sort of persecution complex, but why this is so defeats us. Former friends (of Phil's dad) and the extended family have had nothing to do with them for years, and that suits her. I stopped my daughter going to see her Grandmother when she gained a little puppy fat when she was 9 or 10, because Ma-in-law would come right out and tell her she was fat, without considering how self conscious she was about it anyway and how devastated she'd be. I liked Phil's Dad very much, but I gave up tolerating her insults - just didn't need her pointing out the many flaws I know I have. My family wouldn't do it to Phil, why should I have to put up with it?

If all this s**t was just levelled at outsiders, perhaps I could excuse it, but she doesn't trust her own son either. In the days she bothered to send our kids a little something for birthdays/Christmas she always posted cash, and when Phil said it wasn't the safest thing to do, she told him she wasn't going to send a cheque, as he'd have access to her bank details.

When Phil's dad died (and they were still talking) she seemed to think that we should up sticks and return to Essex, presumably so Phil could be on tap to do all the things his Dad had done, provide a taxi service, and generally run errands. When everything blew up Phil said that he simply could not stand the stress of being at her beck and call for the next 20 years just to inherit their bungalow, which in any event is already going downhill, and she'd probably not leave to him anyway. She'd consider she had truly won if she left it to the cats home - one of the reasons I'd dearly love to establish who does own it. It may not really be hers to give!!!!

[honeybee13]

Hello again. I just picked up on what you said yesterday about this errr, lady, not carrying out her duty as executor. I think that could be a good avenue to pursue. I don't know how you'd go about it, will have a google later if I have time.

 

My best, HB

[PriorityOne]

Thanks also for your comments PriorityOne. I have known my husband for 36 years and throughout that time we have tried to understand what exactly is wrong with her. She does have some sort of persecution complex, but why this is so defeats us. Former friends (of Phil's dad) and the extended family have had nothing to do with them for years, and that suits her. I stopped my daughter going to see her Grandmother when she gained a little puppy fat when she was 9 or 10, because Ma-in-law would come right out and tell her she was fat, without considering how self conscious she was about it anyway and how devastated she'd be. I liked Phil's Dad very much, but I gave up tolerating her insults - just didn't need her pointing out the many flaws I know I have. My family wouldn't do it to Phil, why should I have to put up with it?

If all this s**t was just levelled at outsiders, perhaps I could excuse it, but she doesn't trust her own son either. In the days she bothered to send our kids a little something for birthdays/Christmas she always posted cash, and when Phil said it wasn't the safest thing to do, she told him she wasn't going to send a cheque, as he'd have access to her bank details.

When Phil's dad died (and they were still talking) she seemed to think that we should up sticks and return to Essex, presumably so Phil could be on tap to do all the things his Dad had done, provide a taxi service, and generally run errands. When everything blew up Phil said that he simply could not stand the stress of being at her beck and call for the next 20 years just to inherit their bungalow, which in any event is already going downhill, and she'd probably not leave to him anyway. She'd consider she had truly won if she left it to the cats home - one of the reasons I'd dearly love to establish who does own it. It may not really be hers to give!!!!

 

You deserve a medal for living with this for 36 years, to be honest..... and a lot of what you say re. her behaviour is familiar territory to me.

 

If the house belonged to your father-in-law only, then chances are that she's now entitled to it but it's important to check this out because it may not be the case. It could be, for example, that he Willed her the right to live there until she passes away herself but that the property will never be hers during her lifetime. This situation existed in my own family some years ago with a different relative. If the house is jointly owned and the Will doesn't state otherwise however, then the property should pass to her automatically because they were a married couple.

 

Many people see money and property as a power trip. My Mum was one of those people unfortunately..... and this lady sounds the same. It also sounds as if she's been mentally ill for some time, which has probably gone undiagnosed. Psychological illness only becomes a problem when a person finds it a problem or, when those around them have growing concerns. My Mum went for years without being diagnosed because of the insular life she tried to lead but when she was finally seen by her GP and later by a specialist, we were told that she'd had depression for years. At that point however, she was also showing signs of early Alzheimer's as well. When you scratch below the surface, it's often very sad and when you grow up with a parent who has it, then you know no different.

 

While you're lving alongside that person however, it's often like walking on eggshells!! If your mother-in-law doesn't want you to know stuff, then you'll have one helluva job finding out, so you'll need to go through different avenues to find the information you need. I can remember going through Mum's bungalow with a fine tooth come one day when she was at day-care to find the house Deeds because she refused to safeguard them at the bank and had hidden them from my step-father.... and he was joint owner. I finally found them stuffed underneath the seat of one of the chairs in her bedroom.... just as her transport pulled up at the gate!! He was then able to deposit them at the bank himself.

 

Anyway..... do you have a contact number for the Will-writing people? if not, do you know the name of the company, so you could get the number?

 

[nessa100]

Yes she has been a trial to say the least. We accept she is mentally ill but there is absolutely no way we'd ever get her to the doctors. She talks about the house being bugged, and do you know, I wish I COULD install a camera to record her antics. When my husband called to take her to the hospital to be with his Dad, she first asked if he'd been followed (?). When he got inside he found she had 3 radios on, which would be bad enough, but none were tuned to a radio station, they were just all emitting that high pitched screech. Apparently, that ensures those who are bugging her can't hear her conversation! Phil's Dad may (possibly) have still been with us today if when he was first ill she had allowed him to visit the doctor. Well, he's a man I hear you say, why couldn't he just do what he wanted - several months of her in a strop that's why? Phil's Dad also had cataracts so as he could barely see, he was very reliant her (which she liked as he'd do as he was told), but after his initial cancer operation Phil kept on at him about getting his eyes sorted and his Dad showed an interest. Phil persisted with the topic (despite her standing behind his Dad making throat slitting signs at Phil), and he did get his eyes done. Although the cancer got him in the end, he had 18 months of being able to see and enjoy the world again, something she would have been happy to deny him.

Now I can tell you all of this, and believe me some of it you couldn't make up, but it's only us who see it. Yes she'll go out shopping and probably most who meet her see her as an ordinary old lady, but she avoids contact with anybody who might realise she's not right. So, all health professionals (including vets) are not to be contacted, and she'd rather live in a hovel that claim what she is entitled to, as filling in forms may also give away her mental state - goodness knows what she will do about the census next month!

I have got to the point where I couldn't give a damn about her (although years ago did try to understand what made her as she was), but she is still Phil's Mum and I hate the grief she causes him. It's stress with her in our lives, and also stress without her.

Which is why I would just like to see that will so we can put it to bed. I just cannot understand how it can be that no official bodies seem to pursue the estate when somebody's death is registered. Yes I can accept that if there was nothing there they are not interested, but what if they lived in a £300K home with stacks of cash in the bank (or under the bed knowing her)? Wouldn't Mr Taxman like to know?

[PriorityOne]

The symptoms you describe are a lot more than depression. It sounds like paranoid schizophrenia, to be honest and if so, you really, really do need to voice your concerns with her GP so she can be assessed properly. She doesn't need to know that you're doing this and the GP won't tell you anything either because of data protection BUT, it's important that this behaviour is addressed; for all of you. The GP can come to the house to see her, if necessary.... and then things can be taken from there.

 

If she is classed as paranoid schizophrenic or otherwise, then she's certainly in no fit state to be executor of a Will.... but don't go into the surgery with that agenda, or they may misunderstand your motives.

 

[uaruman]

At the risk of repeating myself, ONCE AGAIN, the duties of an Executor are clearly defined. They are NOT an option, they are MANDATORY. Their duty is to the Estate full stop.

This doesn't include theatrics. engaging in a proverbial hissy fit or any other such nonsense. It's the LAW !!!!!!!

[PriorityOne]

At the risk of repeating myself, ONCE AGAIN, the duties of an Executor are clearly defined. They are NOT an option, they are MANDATORY. Their duty is to the Estate full stop.

This doesn't include theatrics. engaging in a proverbial hissy fit or any other such nonsense. It's the LAW !!!!!!!

 

The duties of the Executor may be clearly defined but this is not the issue. The issue is seeing a copy of the Will that this lady is meant to be Executor of because at the moment, there's no way of knowing whether she's fulfilling her legal obligations or not....

 

If you have any other suggestions as to how OP should deal with this, then please share..... but please don't come across as if everyone else is thick apart from you. Proving someone's mental incapacity is difficult if there haven't been any documented reports in relation to behaviour like this in the past.... so where I accept that a solicitor probably does need to be involved at some point soon, involvement from the GP is going to be essential to support the argument; as well as the lady herself.

[nessa100]

Getting her assessed is not an option. Apart from the issue of us living 160 miles away, she'd probably not open the door to the doctor, and in any event she'd probably come across as perfectly able. My son was with his Dad over the final couple of days, and at 24 he takes little notice of family issues generally. However, when he returned here he did say he never wanted to see her again, as he couldn't believe that she could emit so much bile while her husband lay dying. He also said that when a nurse or doctor appeared to check his Grandad over she was all sweetness and light and the suggestion was that they were talking about happy times. As soon as said doctor or nurse disappeared her face would screw up and she'd be swearing about somebody else - for Doctors & Nurses & when they'd gone. As they say the last thing to go is the hearing, I think it is so sad that he had to listen to her ranting on as he died.

I will try the will writing people to see if under any circumstances they will let us have a copy. We had just hoped that somebody would have insisted she apply for probate and submit the will to the public records, so we could ensure she was fulfilling her duties, but it seems not. Yes I suppose we could get all heavy handed and call in a solicitor, but it seems wrong to make waves if, as she said, it's now all hers, as all we'd be doing is enhancing her hatred towards us, and incurring an expense.

It would also perhaps be even more hurtful to my husband to find his Dad didn't consider him at all in his will (or she didn't let him).

[PriorityOne]

I will try the will writing people to see if under any circumstances they will let us have a copy. We had just hoped that somebody would have insisted she apply for probate and submit the will to the public records, Seems to me that there's no-one around to do this.... so we could ensure she was fulfilling her duties, but it seems not. Yes I suppose we could get all heavy handed and call in a solicitor, If you can't get a copy of the Will, then you will need to, yes. but it seems wrong to make waves if, as she said, it's now all hers, as all we'd be doing is enhancing her hatred towards us, and incurring an expense.

It would also perhaps be even more hurtful to my husband to find his Dad didn't consider him at all in his will (or she didn't let him).

 

At the moment, you don't know it's all hers; you only know what she wants you to know. If she hates you now, then she'll hate you whatever you do..... the issue about wether your hubby is or is not in his late father's Will is a bridge you'll need to cross at a later date but if it proves to be the case, I hope that he'll bear in mind that his late father might have made his decisions in a desire to keep the peace with his wife.

 

[uaruman]

PriorityOne Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm interesting comment. Perhaps you would like to explain CLEARLY how she would achieve this? She has no rights to see her Medical Notes and her GP has a duty of Confidentiality. Tell me how you would do it please. I don't assume people are thick, just simple old curiousity. I await, with suspended breath, for your reply ( I won't use the word baited in case you feel its a freudian slip on my part).

 

I find your personal comments about my assumptions (which are basically your assumptions, not mine, about my presumed assumptions) rather childish and totally incorrect.

Edited February 23, 2011 by uaruman
clarity

[PriorityOne]

PriorityOne Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm interesting comment. Perhaps you would like to explain CLEARLY how she would achieve this? She has no rights to see her Medical Notes and her GP has a duty of Confidentiality. Tell me how you would do it please. I don't assume people are thick, just simple old curiousity. I await, with suspended breath, for your reply ( I won't use the word baited in case you feel its a freudian slip on my part).

 

She would make an appt. to see her mother-in-law's GP, express her concerns and request that the GP makes a home visit. It's not a data protection issue. It's not a request to see medical notes. It is what it is. I know because I've done it myself re. my own mother.

I find your personal comments about my assumptions (which are basically your assumptions, not mine, about my presumed assumptions) rather childish and totally incorrect.

 

Well, you probably would.

[uaruman]

Case closed then eh? And I notice that you have still not answered my question. Prey tell me how you would achieve this utopian scenario (in this particular case), especially as she might not even answer the door, or God forbid, even let him in?

Edited February 23, 2011 by uaruman
clarity

[PriorityOne]

Case closed then eh? And I notice that you have still not answered my question. Prey tell me how you would achieve this utopian scenario?

 

WTF are you on about now?

[uaruman]

Read my reply in its correct context. Just want to know how you would achieve all this. Nothing more, nothing less. Your answer in this instance is far too simplistic. (with the usual platitude thrown in) I can only assume that WTF is street level nonsense for what is a quite serious site.

Edited February 23, 2011 by uaruman
clarity

[PriorityOne]

Read my reply in its correct context. Just want to know how you would achieve all this. Nothing more, nothing less. Your answer in this instance is far too simplistic. (with the usual platitude thrown in)

 

Are you asking how I got my own mother assessed?

[PriorityOne]

A double edit? At least you knew what WTF meant...

Edited February 23, 2011 by PriorityOne
typo

[PriorityOne]

I'm not sure if this is what you're after, but here goes....

 

I had growing concerns re. my mother for some time but they came to a head when she drove the wrong way round a roundabout (with me in the car) one day and nearly caused a pile-up. This was the worst example of her mind deteriorating that I'd witnessed personally, although she'd always been an eccentric character.

 

I made an appt. with her GP (as already stated) and voiced my concerns shortly after this incident. You are correct in your assumption that they thought I was there for info. but I made it clear that I was not there for info. and that I needed to have an assessment carried out for reasons I was about to explain. Her GP than arranged to make a home visit. There was also an occasion when I managed to get her to the surgery for a "health-check"; being the only way she would agree to see the GP.... but I cannot remember if this was prior to the home visit or after it.

 

As far as I can remember, the GP then arranged for an assessment by the Mental Health Team (Geriatric).... This went on for quite a while. After/during the assessment, she would have been considered mentally incapable of writing a Will (I was told this by Social Services, so the same logic should apply to someone who's Executor, like in this thread) but fortunately, she'd made one beforehand. Mum changed her Will constantly depending upon who she favoured at the time and no-one was sure she even had one but we assumed that she had because she'd banged on about it on and off for years.... including changing it several times, yet it was a closed subject.

 

Several months after being assessed by the Mental Health Team, she was finally diagnosed with Altzheimer's.... which led to further deterioration for a further 6 years until she passed away.

 

I was not intimating that assessing anyone is/was easy. It was an incredibly stressful experience that's been summed up in a few paragraphs. At the time, I felt that something needed doing because she was still driving and refused to give up the keys.... The alternative was to leave her to worsen until she became a danger to herself, which followed not long after my initial visit to her GP.

Edited February 23, 2011 by PriorityOne

[uaruman]

A double edit? Just to simplify things for you. Anything to help PriorityOne. These people do not have six years to play with unfortunately. Their first visit should be to their local Probate Office to see if the Will has been lodged there. They also need to state clearly their concerns there and then.

Make sure their visit is logged, get the name of the person who dealt with them, and then make an appointment with a Solicitor

 

If the Will is not lodged there then (assuming that there is a Will) Probate has not been applied for. The term Probate is a grey area, and I notice in the various comments on this particular article, various multiples and figures being banded around. You need a concise definition from your Probate Office in relation to figures (cash) and chatels (goods). Do not assume anything.

 

If the Will is not lodged there, and it has either been destroyed or is being deliberately withheld, the situation then enters the Criminal Law area. Be under no doubt, Probate Law, and the dispensing of the Will is a serious area of Family Law. There is a strict pathway with this situation and there is little point in putting the tail before the proverbial Horse.

 

Do the first thing I have suggested, then at least you know in which direction to go. You will find the Probate staff friendly and more than willing to help. This was my experience, and whilst it is only a suggestion, its the first step on your long (and slightly insane as in my case) path

 

Note; by Grey area I do not mean the actual term Probate, but at which point given the value of the Estate, Probate must be applied for.

(you will also note the lack of lol's and the term wtf in this reply)

Edited February 23, 2011 by uaruman
to assist PriorityOne