Unpaid Council Tax - Bankrupcy, Charging Order or Committal to Prison - Please Help

[dgrg]

Hello there, first post and i am hoping someone can help me here.

 

History:

 

My Wife and I received a letter in August for a liability order against us for unpaid council tax, total outstanding £1789 (eek!). We were pushed into a payment plan that although we could afford one of at the time £289 per month we have since come to the realisation that it is just too much for us to pay each month. so far we have made payments totalling £539 of this debt and I have electronic receipt numbers noted.

 

Today we received a letter with a big red heading stating

"Bankrupcy, Charging Order or Committal to Prison"

 

I write to you that if I do not hear from you within the next 7 days , I will be forced to return the liability order to the council with a report to indicate that you have failed to respond to my requests for payment

(note: other than my payments through the automated service we have had no written communication from Bailiffs since 9th August or any other telephone comms since 10th August).

The council will contact you to inform you of their next course of action which may be one of the following:

 

-Apply to the court to have you committed to prision

-if you are a homeowner, apply to the court for a charging order to be registered against your property ad ask the court to auction your home -

we live in a rented house

-

commence court proceedings to have you declared bankrupt and have your assets, including your home, handed to the official receiver.

 

Any of the above actions will add further, substantial costs to your bill.

 

Yours faithfully

 

We are very distressed and worried about this, and wondered if anyone here can help us on how we should proceed. How do we now communicate with the Bailiffs and/or council. we were told we had to pay all by January, i was hoping my annual bonus would come through in Jan and help us clear it by then but have since found out that my company will not be paying until March 2011 so no longer have that cushion to fall against. I am unable to borrow the money as my o/d is always near the limit, credit card virtually to the limit as well, a familiar story I'm sure.

 

Many thanks for anyone reading, and if you can offer any help it would so very much appreciated.

[night-watchman]

big red letters always grab peoples attention hence using them. I doubt any of that will happen, it's just scare tactics. commital to prison is an extreme these days, Selling your home (even if you did own it) would be a good belly laugh in court for such a small amount. not sure how you could be made bankrupt for £1000

You have come to the right place there are many here who know much more than me, so keep checking back and ensure you keep your status up to date so people here can answer quickly.

Good luck and breathe a little easier now ...... you are in good hands.

[ploddertom]

Night-watchman is correct in that it is more threat than action. It appears as if the Bailiff has nearly given up on you and is ready to pass it back to the Council. Yes they can go for a Committal Hearing but as you can prove you are paying you will not be seen as "wilfully refusing to pay". In the meantime you must continue with your payments - I assume you are paying the Council direct via their website, as long as you pay a regular amount on a regular basis - £10 per week as an example - there will not be much more that can be done.

 

PT

[night-watchman]

Maybe we should all send big red letters to our respective bailiffs.

 

Commital to Prison: Reason Fraud.

 

Sorry anger and stress have subdued to being pedantic

[dgrg]

Thank you everyone, we havent been paying the council but have been making monthly payments via the bailiff's automated service. I will be making another at the end of this week which will be last of the 7 day response time we have been given. I know this won't be the response they want from us, we just would like to know how best to approach this without having them visit us, My wife will be living at home on her days off in fear of a knock on the door.

[seanamarts]

Dont make any more payments to the bailiffs.. pay online via your councils payment system using their website, this is your best course of action.

[ploddertom]

Thank you everyone, we havent been paying the council but have been making monthly payments via the bailiff's automated service. I will be making another at the end of this week which will be last of the 7 day response time we have been given. I know this won't be the response they want from us, we just would like to know how best to approach this without having them visit us, My wife will be living at home on her days off in fear of a knock on the door.

 

Sounds to me as if they are using the old "not paid in time excuse" - whereby you pay and it then takes forever to reach your account and as far as they are concerned you have failed to pay. If it were me I would pay the Council direct instead as the monies you have paid the Bailiff should more than cover their fees but would ask for a breakdown anyway - you never know they may have overcharged you, not that that happens very often of course.

 

PT

[tomtubby]

Thank you everyone, we havent been paying the council but have been making monthly payments via the bailiff's automated service. I will be making another at the end of this week which will be last of the 7 day response time we have been given. I know this won't be the response they want from us, we just would like to know how best to approach this without having them visit us, My wife will be living at home on her days off in fear of a knock on the door.

 

Can you please confirm the following:

 

What was the amount of the Liability Order?

 

Did the bailiff gain entry into your home?

 

Has a levy been made on your goods/car?

 

Have you signed any documents with the bailiff/company?

[dgrg]

Can you please confirm the following:

 

What was the amount of the Liability Order?

 

Did the bailiff gain entry into your home?

 

Has a levy been made on your goods/car?

 

Have you signed any documents with the bailiff/company?

 

Hi there thanks for all the responses everyone, is there any reason why i should pay the council and not the bailiffs, as i can't help thinking that thye will come down very heavy handedly if i don't pay them anymore, my wife will be petrified if they turn up and as much as i can tell her to be strong i have a feeling she will be scared into doing what they say.

 

so far.....

 

First liability order was £1789 - (will get confirmation from council for this weds)

No entry to home yet

No Levy on goods/car yet

We have not signed any documents either

 

thanks again everyone

Edited November 24, 2010 by dgrg
additional info

[ploddertom]

They will turn up regardless unfortunately - unless you can pay in full beforehand.

 

PT

[dgrg]

Hi there

 

the Council are refusing to help at all, my wife went in the offices this morning and was flatly told not to speak to them as the matter is out of their hands. Flustered and upset she left without asking how much the original order was for, what the balance was, or what charges had been applied.

 

Could anyone advise on how we should proceed? who do we write to? and what shuold we say?

 

I'm concious that we need to communicate by Friday to Rundles, and would need to sned something registered out tomorrow..

 

Thanks everyone

[ploddertom]

Regardless the Council are bang out of order. No doubt your OH only got as far as the front office - they have a script they are not allowed to deviate from. I would go over their heads and start higher up - an email to the Chief Executive perhaps, saying those downstairs are refusing to advise on what you owe etc. They will refuse to take it back and say you have to deal with the Bailiff - they can take it back but choose not to. As has been said previously you can bypass the Bailiff and pay direct to the Council via their website or automated phone line. There is a very good chance your Council has actually contracted their back office services out to a private company - possibly Equita who also own a Bailiff company called Equita - this would explain the reception your OH met.

 

Sorting this is not an easy thing, there is nothing that says you have to deal with or speak to the Bailiff. You can totally ignore them and just pay the Council direct instead. Have a good read of some of the other threads here to get a feel of things.

 

PT

[dgrg]

This is great thanks PT, OH just called the council and they gave her all the details, they know how much we have been paying, but what is odd is that our liability was for £1439 but rundles were chasing £1789...£350 more...hmmm! Lady at council also said we were silly not to be contacting Rundles

 

is it worth me writing to rundles asking for a breakdown of their costs as the council couldnt tell my OH what they were. This should give us a 14 day period where they can't contact us is that correct?

 

thanks everyone for the help, I've been trying to read up as much as possible but I have a long working/travelling day, all my evenings have been spent on this fantastic site trying to find out more & more

[ploddertom]

This is great thanks PT, OH just called the council and they gave her all the details, they know how much we have been paying, but what is odd is that our liability was for £1439 but rundles were chasing £1789...£350 more...hmmm! Lady at council also said we were silly not to be contacting Rundles - agreed, see letter below

 

is it worth me writing to rundles asking for a breakdown of their costs as the council couldnt tell my OH what they were. This should give us a 14 day period where they can't contact us is that correct? Unfortunately not but it will make them think

 

thanks everyone for the help, I've been trying to read up as much as possible but I have a long working/travelling day, all my evenings have been spent on this fantastic site trying to find out more & more

 

Send this off to the Bailiffs for a breakdown - use and adapt as you see fit, send by email then a copy in the post using Signed For.

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were

certificated

at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a

Subject access request

under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

PT

[seanamarts]

You need to write to the bailiff company and ask for a breakdown of their charges, so far all you should owe is their visit fees, even if they havnt visited they will say they have, it is possible they have been and levied on a car and added charges for that, but if you have had no notice to stipulate that they have made a levy then they cannot make a charge for this.

I would start paying on line to the council as much as you can afford, you then cannot be accused of not paying. I would also get a letter out to the chief executive as a formal complaint that the bailiff has made excessive charges and have not stipulated what these are. Keep all doors and windows locked and dont answer the door to these numpties until you get some answers.

It is pointless phoning them as they will just spout out lies, always best to write or email.

[dgrg]

Thanks so much guys, do i mention in my letter that until i receive full breakdown of costs that i will be copying the chief exec and in the meantime will be making payment to the council direct through the website? or is that just a waste of ink?

[ploddertom]

Thanks so much guys, do i mention in my letter that until i receive full breakdown of costs that i will be copying the chief exec and in the meantime will be making payment to the council direct through the website? or is that just a waste of ink?

 

No need to tell them what you are doing, the letter is for a breakdown of their charges - period.

 

PT

[dgrg]

I have drafted two letters, one to the bailiff and one to the council, am i on the right track here? what I'm aiming for is the council to take back the debt

 

 

Bailiff:

 

Dear Mr xxxxx

 

With reference to you recent communication on the above account, We were surprised to hear that you have sent requests for payment as our last correspondence from you was dated 9th August and we have been making paymets via the automated service. To get a better understanding of the account can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges applied.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were certifiied at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject Access Request and I understand that under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10 and that You are obliged to provide this information.

 

We require this information in writing within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

xxxxxxxxxxxxx　

　

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------　

　

To the Council

 

Re: xxxxxxxxxx

 

I understand xxxxxxxxx Council has appointed Rundle & Co to recover my Council Tax Liability arrears for 2010. We recently received a letter from Rundle & Co stating that we had failed to respond to their requests for payment yet since initial contact we have received no additional correspondence and have so far paid £xxx against the account. we understand some Bailiff fees will apply but believe there are some discrepancies, Civic Office staff informed us today that the original liability order was for £xxxx, yet Rundle & Co’s initial requested was full Payment of £xxxx.

 

Rundle and Co have also stated in their latest correspondence that should we fail to contact them then they will return the liability order and the Council may consider applying to have us committed to prison, apply a charging order, or declare us bankrupt. This is most distressing as we are not at any point refusing to pay this debt.

 

 

To this effect I have today written to Rundle & Co requesting an itemised statement of account (please see enclosed copy) that clearly shows what charges have been added and what they are for, Civic Offices confirm our balance as being £xxxx, yet I have checked with Rundle & Co website claims the debt as £xxxx indicating another disconnect between our payments and the balances between Civic office and Rundle & Co balance.

 

Due to the discrepancies on the account I propose we make our payments direct to Hertsmere Borough Council offices and wish to continue to do so until the account is clear. Due to our circumstances we are unable to pay this in one payment, however I advocate a payment schedule of 5 months at £xxx p/m being paid direct to the Council Offices starting on 26/11/2010 until 31/03/2011 followed by 9 months at £xx from April as we move into the 2011 council tax year be paid on the 31st of each month to cover the principle. I understand this may seem a long time but this is a realistic offer that is affordable to us and will allow me to pay future bills issued for Council Tax without them falling into arrears. A greater amount would cause me real and actual By and large hardship. We will provide a full breakdown of income and expenditure to this effect should you require and our personal preference is payment by Standing Order.

 

It should be noted again that we are not at any point refusing to pay this debt but only asking for a fair payment period considering my circumstances.

 

I hope the above meets your approval and I look forward to your timely reply by letter.

 

Yours faithfully,

Edited November 25, 2010 by dgrg
change of date

[seanamarts]

its a good letter.

[dgrg]

I wrote all letters and posted them out to which I received the following replies: The charges from Bailiff came back as follows

Debt £1529 (debt +liability order)

1st Visit £24.50

2nd Visit £18,00

Levy fee £67.00

Attendanec/Van £150.00

Card payment £1.00

Card payment £1.00

Card payment £1.00

outstanding amount £1250

The council weren’t as cooperative as I’d hoped and dismissed my payment proposal, they confirmed that of my £542 paid to Rundle £420 has gone against my council account. which means rundles have kept back £122 to date, my balance at the council was £1109. they also stated that I must only deal with Bailiff’s direct as i had been given plenty of oppurtunity etc. etc.

After sending out the letters I made one payment direct to the council of £150, so that balance should now hopefully be £959. In between being able to respond to the Bailiff with my payment proposal that i offered the council the Bailiff arrived weds in a van saying they had come to collect. My OH didn’t open the door but spoke through the letterbox and told him we had made a payment, he said there was no record and he would be coming back in 48hrs to collect goods and he WILL collect, the car and basically everything else we have, and if our goods aren’t to the value of the debt they will add further charges, auction fees and all sorts.

To top it off the o/s balance now apparently stands at £1467.26 (hand scribbled on their 'attendance notice to clear goods' letter through the door) so they have added another £217 of charges without detailing them. I think all they have is my car registration as it was parked on the drive but gave no other documents, only their standard 'attendance notice the clearance of goods. Our second sonce this started.

I spoke to bailiff on the phone explaining that I understand he is doing his job etc and also that we aren’t flatly refusing to pay but merely looking for a viable solution within our means. I was told he has to collect no matter what and if I call the office they will only direct me back to him for arrangement, then he said he would give us until 6th Jan because it’s Christmas… imagine how touched I was! But he will be back on 6th Jan if whether he hears from me or not (will be interesting to see if they try another £217 worth of charges!)

I really don't want to pay these people any more money as the will only net payments against the outrageous charges. Could anyone best advise how we should proceed?

1, If say I can pay a chunk of around £500 by 6th Jan, which is looking very likely

2. Or if for some miraculous reason I can raise £959 and pay council that direct through website

any help is massively appreciated, our 2 year old now puts her fingers to her lips and says shhh when there is a knock on the door, it's a heart sinking reminder of the situation we are in and why we're making every effort to clear it and move on from this.

[Tingy]

Who is the council? Who did you send the letter to when you wrote to them?

[Tingy]

Sorry - just answered 1st question.

 

I would e-mail the CEO

 

[email protected]

 

with the following:

 

Dear Mr Graham,

 

Your Ref: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

I am writing to you as my final hope of reaching a resolution to a serious issue with your council. In August we received a Liability Order against us for unpaid council tax. While we do not dispute that debt, we have been trying ever since to repay the debt by affordable installments. The account was passed to Rundle and Co bailiffs for enforcement and I believe you to be vicariously liable for the actions and charges of Rundle and Co.

 

Several times we have approached the frontline desk to try to ascertain details pertaining to the above debt, only to be told the council are no longer able to deal with it as it has been passed to bailiffs. We have made regular payments to Rundle and Co, only a small percentage of which has been passed on to yourselves, and some ot the fees being charged are unquestionably illegal - I have written proof from the bailiffs they are claiming these fees.

 

We are becoming increasingly anxious as we seem to have hit an impass. The bailiffs demand a full payment, your staff refuse any payment and we want to pay as much as we can afford on a regular basis to settle the issue once and for all.

 

All future payments will now be made direct to the council in order that the debt is reduced by as much as it can be as quickly as possible, and we would appreciate it in the meantime if you could ensure the council recalls the debt from the bailiffs. Perhaps I could also ask that you launch a full investigation into their behaviour and charges as some are quite clearly illegal. Their refusal to give any substantial information only heightens my suspicions that they are not acting entirely within the law and thus, through the vicarious liability, potentially causing you serious problems, possibly leading to criminal proceedings against your council. To date they have not posted anything through my door to say they have levied on any goods whatsoever.

 

My desire is to settle this debt. Please ensure it is recalled from the bailiffs as the effect this is having on my health and that of my wife is serious. At least knowing it was back with you and we were safe from the bullish and illicit tactics of the bailiffs would give a little peace of mind. I assure you we would not renege on our repayment schedule and are prepared to pay £xxx per week/month towards the settlement of this debt. (ENSURE THIS IS SUSTAINABLE AND AFFORDABLE, ESPECIALLY IF IT MEANS GOING BEYOND APRIL WHEN YOU WILL HAVE A FURTHER CT BILL).

 

I thank you in advance for your intervention in this matter and look forward to confirmation that you have recalled the debt from Rundle and Co. Meanwhile our first payment will be paid direct to the council on dd/mm/yyyy.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

 

Name

Edited December 19, 2010 by Tingy

[ploddertom]

"Debt £1529 (debt +liability order) - is this the sum confirmed by the Council

1st Visit £24.50 - seems Ok but see below

2nd Visit £18,00 - seems Ok but see below

levy fee £67.00 - see below

Attendanec/Van £150.00 - see below

Card payment £1.00 - not allowed

Card payment £1.00 - not allowed

Card payment £1.00 - not allowed

outstanding amount £1250" - is this the sum confirmed by the Council

 

From Above

Levy Fee - did you receive a Notice of Seizure, if so what goods have they levied on. Also on what date was this done, was it the same date as either 1st or 2nd Visit?

Attendance Fee - when was this charged, was it at the same time the Levy Fee was charged?

 

PT

[hallowitch]

Debt £1529 (debt +liability order)

1st Visit £24.50

2nd Visit £18,00

levy fee £67.00

Attendance/Van £150.00

do you have the dates the fees were added

 

Card payment £1.00

Card payment £1.00

Card payment £1.00

 

there is no payment fee in legislation therefore it should not have been charged

don't be surprised if you find a notice of seizure of goods and inventory listing your car pushed through your door very shortly (it wouldn't be the first time)

dated the day levy fee was charged

[dgrg]

Fristly Tingy, thank you so much for that letter it is massively appreciated and really helps clarify in my mind what I want to say but coulnd't find the right way to convey.

 

hallowitch,ploddertom here are the dated charges

 

Aug 7 - 1st Visit £24.50

Aug 8 - 2nd Visit £18,00

Aug 31 - levy fee £67.00

Aug 31 - Attendance/Van £150.00

Last confirmed balance with Council was £1109.36 (we paid £150 direct online around that time so unsure if this was included), Council acknowledge in their letter refusing my proposal that rundle have so far charged £262 for their 'work' on my case and that in each payment i have made to rundle that a portion is retained by the bailiff.

 

We have never received a listed inventory of goods that they have levied on, allthough i suspect if now asked for my car will be on it. We have only ever received what looks to be a standard letter 'ATTENDANCE NOTICE THE COLLECTION OF GOODS'. The total balance due is hand written and the 2nd one we were given weds 15th when they attended the balance magically jumped £217 from the confirmed balance on th detailled charges letter. Coincidentally £217 being the same value as their charges on the visit 31 Aug (Van/Levy).

In my letter to the council i guess it's worth highlighting this.

 

Thanks everyone for your help