HSBC- Newmans/Arrow Global

[dx100uk]

dont like this

 

esp the rolling into one of the loan into the O/D.

 

you can use the cca on an O/D.

 

i'll find the letter

 

what letters have you on this merging of the two, seems strange

 

dx

[payback68]

dont like this

 

esp the rolling into one of the loan into the O/D.

 

you can use the cca on an O/D.

 

i'll find the letter

 

what letters have you on this merging of the two, seems strange

 

dx

 

FOS are of the same opinion as you dx! I had a detailed discussion with them on Monday, whereupon i stated that Arrow have sent their final response and they are adamant that the debt is an overdraft, however, they are not aware that the original debt started with a bank loan like i have stated. I said to FOS do you think i should send the proof off to Arrow to prove my point?, they said NO they have supplied their final response, just send all details through to us and we will deal with it, as eventually if i don't log a formal complaint against Arrow they will just sell the debt on again!. Which is what i have done. FOS also supplied me with HSBC's compliance departments details via a phone number, which i rang, the woman i spoke to was less than useless and stated that they do not deal with First Direct complaints as they are a separate entity to HSBC. I asked her so why are you named as being the creditor and have FV-1 acting on your behalf? to which she replied we have no clue who FV-1 are they are not on our database, although she gave me the details of First Directs compliance dept. so i called them for details. Now they went into more detail as to why i wanted to complain, so i gave them a brief account of the situation and asked them if in their opinion it would benefit me by cancelling a bank loan agreement and transferring the balance to my current account?. She said oh right, is that what the complaint is?, i said your damn skippy it is, also how can you default an account twice on the same day with different sums owed?. To be honest it was a pointless exercise as she was just a call centre ex burger flipper.

 

Anyway lets see what happens, FOS have merged my complaint against Arrow with the new complaint against First Direct. I have made the point that if this loan account wasn't closed the PPI would have paid it off in full and i would not have had to put up with 10 years of grief from these idiot DCA's passing my info from pillar to post.

 

I'll update the thread when i have more info...

 

Regards

 

PB68.

[payback68]

Hi Folks,

 

First Direct have provided their Final Response and to be honest although they do have information regarding this Account being a Loan to start with, the information they have provided benefits them only! i.e there is no mention of TWO default notices supplied on the same date for different amounts of money owed (which FOS have proof of), they have also stated that their actions to amalgamate the Loan Account with the Current Account was to benefit me, however, i beg to differ considering the fact the Account had PPI( missold) and this Loan would have been paid off in full by their own insurers upon receipt of the evidence of my illness. They have also supplied details of the PPI which basically states that "Without Prejudice" they are pending the outcome of a court ruling from August 2010 before they can deal with it!

 

I am of the opinion here as i am dealing with numerous different companies, they are attempting to bully me which FOS are aware of. I am going to base my complaint on the fact they have only supplied documents which only benefits them, as they have also stated that they would like to resolve this matter without FOS being involved in no uncertain terms.

 

I feel that the original Agreement that i had with this Bank has been " Amended" to benefit themselves and this is what i will be stating in my final letter of complaint to FOS!.

 

The following makes interesting reading also, regarding what Arrow have stated, that overdrafts are not covered under CCA1974. (S.17-20)

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2005/473.html

 

DX can you post that letter about overdrafts as i want to ensure i have as much info as possible before i send the info i have into FOS.

 

Regards

 

PB68.

[dx100uk]

TRy this>>>>>>

 

 

dx

 

not my work

 

Ok here we go..for DML

Thankyou for your letter of xxxx.

I am most concerned that you have stated in your response that "overdraft accounts are not covered by the CCA".

It is common knowledge and clearly established in law and Statute that overdrafts ARE most definitely covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I feel that your statement ( which is of a templated nature and therefore presumably sent out to others as a standard reply) is grossly misleading and intended to influence a transactional decision,

as defined as an Unfair practice in The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (sections 5 / 6).

I will therefore be taking my concerns on this matter to the Office of Fair Trading / Trading Standards and would remind you that contravention of relevant sections of CPUTR is a criminal offence.

For your reference, in case you continue to maintain that overdrafts are not covered by the CCA, their exemption from Section 74 (1) (b) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 was revoked on 1st February 1990.

To quote Coutts vs Sebasteyn:

"The Determination (which is signed by the Director of Fair Trading) is made under section 74(3) of the Act. I set it out in full:

"1. Under the powers conferred upon me by Sections 74(3) and (3A) and 133 of the Consumer Credit 1974, I, the Director General, being satisfied that it would not be against the public interest to do so, hereby revoke with effect from 1st February 1990 the Determination made by me in respect of Section 74(1)(b) and dated 3 November 1983 and now determine that with effect from 1st February 1990 Section 74(1)(b) shall apply to every debtor-creditor agreement enabling the debtor to overdraw on a current account, under which the creditor is a bank.

 

2. This Determination is made subject to the following conditions:-

 

(a) that the creditor shall have informed my Office in writing of his general intention to enter into agreements to which the Determination will apply;

(b) that where there is an agreement between a creditor and a debtor for the granting of credit in the form of an advance on a current account, the debtor shall be informed at the time or before the agreement is concluded:

- of the credit limit, if any,

- of the annual rate of interest and the charges applicable from the time the agreement is concluded and the conditions under which these may be amended,

of the procedure for terminating the agreement;

and this information shall be confirmed in writing.

© that where a debtor overdraws his current account with the tacit agreement of the creditor and that account remains overdrawn for more than 3 months, the creditor must inform the debtor in writing not later than 7 days after the end of that 3 month period of the annual rate of interest and charges applicable.

3. In this Determination the terms 'creditor' and 'debtor' shall have the meanings assigned to them respectively by Section 189 of [the CONSUMER CREDIT Act]. The term 'bank' includes the Bank of England and banks within the meaning of the Bankers' Books Evidence Act 1879 as amended."

It is therefore clear that in order to enforce a current account overdraft in court, the claimant has to demonstrate that they have adhered to the above stipulations.

In response to your threat of legal action, I have requested proof from you that the required documentation was supplied at the time the account was opened, or if a tacit agreement, within 3 months + 7 days of commencement, which whilst not necessarily a signed agreement should be at the very least a letter detailing the credit limit, APR and applicable charges, amendment conditions, termination procedure etc.

You have failed to comply with my legitimate request and therefore until/unless you do so this account is in dispute.

I would therefore respectfully suggest that you either refer this account back to your client or put it on hold pending completion of your statutory obligations.

yours faithfully

 

Might at worst buy you more time, at best send them scuttling back under the nearest rock.

Lets see what they say to that..but I would definitely report them for that statement re CCA..we can work on that later if you wish.

 

Elsa x

[payback68]

Hi dx, thanks for posting the info, i have already sent in all the info i have and have also quoted Couttes in my response!. Havind said that, it maybe beneficial to send the above letter to Arrow as they are adamant that overdrafts are not covered by CCA1974, if for no other reason, but to just educate them. I am of the opinion that FOS are pretty much fed up with these banks take advantage of people according to what the newspapers say, so we will see what happens.

 

I will update the thread when i have more info and to be honest i am not holding my breath as to whether FOS rule in my favour or theirs!.

 

Regards

 

PB68.

[dx100uk]

you need to get this ppi reclaimed as well

 

dx

[payback68]

Hi folks

just a quick update here. FOS do not deem Arrows response to my complaint is adequate and they have written to them on my behalf, they have 3 weeks to comply.

 

First Direct annoyed me with their letter attempting to give me advice about setting up a payment plan with Arrow, so i basically replied to them stating my grievances and asked them to explain why they closed ranks on me and terminated every agreement i had with them and binned the PPI on the Loan. I also stated that their actions contributed to my illness back in 2000 and furthermore i have worked out from Bank Statements that within a 2 year period they charged me ( unfairly) £1168.

 

They replied today and basically stated " regrettably we can't reply to your letter as it wasn't signed and we require a sample signature". they can Foxtrot Oscar.

 

My reply to their letter will be, SEND YOUR FINAL RESPONSE! and i will be seeking Legal redress if need be via the courts for your total incompetence and the way you have conducted yourselves when my accounts were active.

 

Will update the thread when i have more info guys:wink:

 

Regards

 

PB68.

[payback68]

Hi Folks,

 

Received a letter from Arrow after sending the amended letter to them that dx kindly posted by Elsa and they seem to have changed their tune slightly. Although they do state that they are not prepared to supply any paperwork whatsoever via correspondence and although they admit the debt is unenforceable the OFT guidelines allows them to still pursue me for the amount owed. They have also stated that they are aware of me making continued payments on the account to this day.

 

What planet are they on? i cancelled all payments months ago!.

 

First Direct will not comply whatsoever and keep on stating " we require a specimen signature" and return my letters.

 

I will update the thread when i have more info as finally i have all the evidence and have resubmitted the complaint to FOS.

 

Regards

 

PB68.

[payback68]

Hi Folks.

 

Well this situation is becoming beyond a joke!

 

FOS have all the information about the various companies involved which amounts to about 20 2 page letters i have written as well as copies of all correspondence the various DCA's have sent me.

 

Newman's have come out of the woodwork and basically sent me two identical letters stating "Change of Ownership" of this debt, apparently Transcom now manage the debt but Arrow still own it, god this is getting more ridiculous by the day. They have also showed their severly diminished prowess and under educated office staffs capabilities by placing my D.O.B in the middle of my postcode!. It's like dealing with pre-school infants. One letter has no details whatsoever on it i.e Account number etc. (template) but the other has the Account number.

 

They will be forwarded to FOS first thing Tuesday to be added to my dispute.

 

Will update the thread hopefully within the next 3 weeks as thats what FOS have told me regarding their adjudicators decision.

 

Regards

 

PB68.

[payback68]

Hi folks,

 

Just a quick update although nothing of great importance!.

 

FOS's Adjudicator called me wanting to discuss the matter further regarding my complaint and stated that he wouldn't be surprised if First Direct/HSBC supplied a letter detailing the limitation act as the debt is so old, however they haven't supplied one as yet. I stated that the account was only sold last year because i kicked up a fuss and the limitation act states that they should have details of the debt for a period of six years after the account was closed with them. Anyway he said he will discuss this further with one of his colleagues. He also gave me his direct line number if i need to contact him.

 

I also stated that this is a typical ploy by the bank i.e you have an account with them, possibly a loan and credit card too, then when you lose your job through redundancy or ill health they merge every account you have into your current account thus giving you an unauthorised overdraft which is subject to interest charges and fee's, then they instruct their in-house DCA (FV-1/Metropolitan Collections) to demand payment and claim Part v exemption.

 

Will update the thread when i have more info .

 

Regards

 

PB68.

[payback68]

Well guys had a response today from FOS!.

 

HSBC are prepared to offer me a refund of the PPI premiums of £370.21 as full and final settlement to this dispute, which includes interest also.

 

FOS are not prepared to consider any form of action against the several DCA's involved as they have no regulatory or supervisory powers over them, so it looks like this shower will get away with all the pathetic letters they have sent me proving their inadaquescies.

 

I have to let them know wether i am prepared to accept this offer within 14 days otherwise they will close the file!. Not quite sure what to do here really as in my opinion alls they are offering is what they rightfully owe me anyway.

 

Could do with a few opinions on this, fellow caggers.

 

Regards

 

PB68.