Should the bailiff pass my debt back to the council (tax)?

[majickal]

Hi. I have a cuoncil tax debt in 2 parts, one of which was passed to Ross and Roberts bailiffs. I wrote letters to the both the council and the bailiffs ouitlining my intentions to pay £12.50 per week to the council and asked the council to take the debt back from the bailiff as I think I fall into the category of a "vulnerable" person. I live alone, am disabled and in receipt of benefits due to being chronically sick. I received letters this morning, one from the council and one from the bailiff. The council said they are happy for me to pay them £7 per week, but the amount which was passed to the baillif must be paid to Ross and Roberts at £5 per week. They are unwilling to take back te debt as they say i have ignored chances to pay since may of this year. Can anyone pass on any advice on the "vulnerable" person issue? They seem to have ignored it. I have/will carry on paying £12.50 to the council on a weekly basis, but am unsure as to what I should tell the bailiff...

 

Any help is appreciated!

 

Thanks.

[MARTIN3030]

Can you give some more details about the account thats with the bailiff ?

When was the liability order issued ?

Were the Council at that point aware of your circumstances ?

How much is the arrears ?

Have you had a breakdown of the account ?

What charges have been added by the bailiffs?

Have they visited you ? or is this a first letter ?

[Tingy]

Do you receive any community care services? (See below)

 

Hi. I have a cuoncil tax debt in 2 parts, one of which was passed to Ross and Roberts bailiffs. I wrote letters to the both the council and the bailiffs ouitlining my intentions to pay £12.50 per week to the council and asked the council to take the debt back from the bailiff as I think I fall into the category of a "vulnerable" person. I live alone, am disabled and in receipt of benefits due to being chronically sick. I received letters this morning, one from the council and one from the bailiff. The council said they are happy for me to pay them £7 per week, but the amount which was passed to the baillif must be paid to Ross and Roberts at £5 per week. They are unwilling to take back te debt as they say i have ignored chances to pay since may of this year. Can anyone pass on any advice on the "vulnerable" person issue? They seem to have ignored it. I have/will carry on paying £12.50 to the council on a weekly basis, but am unsure as to what I should tell the bailiff...

 

Any help is appreciated!

 

Thanks.

Definition of 'Vulnerable Adult'

 

The term 'vulnerable adult' refers to any person aged 18 years and over who is in community care or may be in need of community care services by reason of mental or other disability, age or illness and who is or may be unable to take care of himself or herself, or unable to protect himself or herself against significant harm or serious exploitation'.

This also includes those adults at risk owing to their caring role or family responsibilities.

 

 

If you receive community care you clearly qualify, if not, you don't appear to. However, you're absolutely correct to keep paying everything direct to the council. Has this been to court? If not it is worth writing to the Head of Council Tax (ideally backed up by your local counsellor) outlining the situation and reminding that they, as a council, are vicariously liable with the bailiffs for their conduct. "Play" on your vulnerability (don't take that wrong - I mean make your illness sound as bad as possible) and say you are suffering because of the stress caused by the possibility of bailiffs visiting your home. Remind them they have agreed the majority of the repayment plan with you and you don't understand why, especially considering your vulnerability, they are refusing to take the debt back from the bailiffs when it is clearly within their power to do so. Finish by telling them you believe them to be in breach of the MALG guidelines by not complying with your request and so unless you hear from them, in writing, within 10 days that they have recalled the debt, you will be taking further action.

[ploddertom]

Can you please explain why it has been "split in two". Have you confirmed with the Council how many Liability Orders there are, how much each is for, how much is still outstanding on each and the dates they were passed to the Bailiffs? Have you also checked to see why the Council have not applied for an Attachment to Benefits which will take a maximum of £3-25 per week?

 

PT

[Tingy]

Can you please explain why it has been "split in two". Have you confirmed with the Council how many Liability Orders there are, how much each is for, how much is still outstanding on each and the dates they were passed to the Bailiffs? Have you also checked to see why the Council have not applied for an Attachment to Benefits which will take a maximum of £3-25 per week?

 

PT

I agree PT this puzzled me as well, but the council will have appointed bailiffs just to get their money and as I'm sure you know tend to be nasty with Council Tax (and they lie!) Attachment to Benefits would just slow down the process for them. Stupid move by the council, but then if they make their bed.......

[ploddertom]

I agree PT this puzzled me as well, but the council will have appointed bailiffs just to get their money - this may be so but does not excuse their behaviour as a complaint to the LGO will go against them - and as I'm sure you know tend to be nasty with Council Tax (and they lie!) Attachment to Benefits would just slow down the process for them - it will of course depend upon what Benefits the OP receives but again does not excuse their behaviour. Stupid move by the council, but then if they make their bed.......

 

This sounds in particular like a Council who has hived off their back office workings to a private company where the sole intention is to derive profits first. The OP pobably needs to involve their local Councillor ASAP.

 

PT

[majickal]

Thanks for the replies... i'll try and fill in the blanks without being too long winded! I had my first council tax bill when i became too ill to work last year. my sick pay ended and i could not afford to pay it for a couple of months. around Christmas time, a court order was made for me to pay around £8 per week to cover it. My statutory sick pay then ended so i put in a claim for incapacity benefit. this took a few difficult months to come through, and at the same time i was appealling a "declined" decision for DLA... Also at the same time i was hit with the new years council tax bill, which i mistakenly assumed included the court order amount. (still with me here!) Because of the constantly fluctuating amounts of all my benefits due to delays/recalculations, i was constantly receiving revised council tax bills and installment plans all through this year (around once a month) as my council tax benefit amounts were changing all the time (as my eligibility and and amounts of other benefits kept changing). Foolishly, i didn't pay any council tax, instead waiting for benefits to all be calculated properly so i knew exctly how much it was i actully owed. My DLA tribunal finally happened in september this year (one year after the original claim) and finally all my benefits were properly calculated and i received a final amount for council tax, but in two separate amounts in two letters; One for the original court order (447.75) and one for the new year (£190 ish). i saw no mention of bailiffs and had received no communication from any bailiff, so i added the 2 amounts together and paid £50 odd to bring the whole amount down to £600. I drafted a letter to council offering to pay them £12.50 a week, and before i could post it the next morning i had a bailiff knock on the door. I did not answer, as i never answer to strangers, but his hand delivered letter demanded £511.08 immediately. I printed off the generic letter from the sticky and ammended it accordingly. I sent a copy by recorded post to the bailiff and one to the council with a covering letter explaining that payment had commenced and will continue weekly to the council. I re-read the 2 letters i had from the council outlining my 2 total amounts, and at the bottom of the larger amount letter, it says (almost as a sideline!) "Passed for bailiff action". I received a response today from both council and bailiff, and the bailiff amount has dropped the the actual amount i owe the council plus £24.50 ( i assume for the first visit fee).

The only issue i have really, is that the bailiff has no facility to pay by standing order. I can pay weekly by phone, for which there is a surcharge, or by postal order, which puts me out of pocket and makes it easy for them to claim they never received a payment and take further action... I'm going to continue paying £12.50 weekly to the council, but the bailiff wants £5.00 per week, and if they don't have the first installment by 29th november, they say they'll add £60 cxharge and come round to seize goods. I know that they cant, as they have not gained entry and wont, but am I doing the right thing?

 

If you've read this far, thankyou for your patience

[majickal]

Sorry, forgot to say, i cant have it taken from my benefit as it's incapacity benefit. apparently you have to be on income support/jsa/esa

[seanamarts]

I am appalled at the way the council have treated you. I seriously suggest you get in contact with your local councillor and get them to intervene on your behalf. You clearly are vulnerable and if they are excepting payment for part of the liability order then there is no reason why they cannot except all of it... bloody minded is all I can think right now...

[majickal]

Thanks for the reply. I wrote an email to the council re-iterating that i will not be making any payments to the bailiff, and pressing the vulnerable person issue. I recently had a housing needs assessment done by the councils adult care team, for re-housing purposes, which clearly outlines my vulnerabilities/disabilities. I mentioned this report in the email and offered that they could see it if they needed to. I dont think i'll write to the bailiff again though as they dont seem to have actually read the letter i sent them. I wrote to them clearly stating my intentions to pay all money to the council and none to them. They replied saying that they agreed to my offer of £5 per week!! uh-huh...

 

I've never had any contact with any local councillors though.. Being a non-voter, I wouldn't even know who to contact, or whether they would even offer any help! I have found a list of town councillors, but i'm unsure of which one I should contact if the need arises. They seem to be mostly lib-dem, but i dont really involve myself too much in the politics of the "big 3".

 

Any suggestions are gladly received

 

[seanamarts]

You dont have to be political minded to get in contact with your local councillor, they are there to help with all council related matters including bailiffs. If you dont want to call them why not send them an email. Have you a social worker or care worker from the adult care team, it may be wise to have a chat with one of those who may help.

[Tingy]

The councillors will be helpful. If you've got a list, contact one near you and tell them the problem. Explain you're not sure if you're through to the right one, but would be grateful if s/he could guide you to the correct person. In your position it would seem as though the guidelines for qualifying as a vulnerable person posted above don't count as you're in the process of being assessed so you may or may not be. I think the very fact you're being assessed makes you vulnerable enough to get some help with this. Give one of them a ring and take it from there.

[seanamarts]

The OP is vulnerable, full stop.

[Tingy]

The OP is vulnerable, full stop.

 

I agree in theory, hence my advice, but you look up the definition of a vulnerable person and you'll find the OP is not a clear cut case. If you know of a law that states he is classed as a "vulnerable person" please post it as it would help enormously, otherwise we have to go with what we've got (see my post #3). I don't think anyone on this site would disagree that they are vulnerable, but in the eyes of the law they may not be, hence my advice.

[seanamarts]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/446/regulation/2/made

Definition of vulnerable adult

 

2.—(1) In these Regulations “vulnerable adult” means a person aged 18 or over who is receiving services of a type listed in paragraph (2) below and in consequence of a condition of a type listed in paragraph (3) below has a disability of a type listed in paragraph (4) below.

 

(2) The services are—

 

(a)accommodation and nursing or personal care in a care home;

 

(b)personal care or nursing or support to live independently in his own home; The OP is in receipt of DLA

©any services provided by an independent hospital, independent clinic, independent medical agency or National Health Service body;

 

(d)social care services; or

 

(e)any services provided in an establishment catering for a person with learning difficulties.

 

(3) The conditions are—

 

(a)a learning or physical disability;

 

(b)a physical or mental illness, chronic or otherwise, including an addiction to alcohol or drugs; or

 

(c)a reduction in physical or mental capacity.

 

(4) The disabilities are—

 

(a)a dependency upon others in the performance of, or a requirement for assistance in the performance of, basic physical functions;

 

(b)severe impairment in the ability to communicate with others; or

 

©impairment in a person’s ability to protect himself from assault, abuse or neglect.

(5) In this regulation “care home”, “independent clinic”, “independent hospital”, “independent medical agency” and “National Health Service body” have the same meanings as in the Care Standards Act 2000(1

[Tingy]

Thanks seanamarts - a very useful reference which I'll look up as mine was also from a government site and I'd tried to be careful. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. As said already, I think we're all agreed he's vulnerable anyway and needs help, that's the main thing!

[majickal]

Hi all, i hope you're well. Just an update on my situation and a quick question...

I have made all payments directly to wiltshire council and i am now fully paid up . However, after speaking with the council, I understand that Ross and Roberts' fees are still outstanding as the council didn't include bailiff fees in their charges. Which is fine. Ross and Roberts have made 2 seperate visits to my home, and no levy has been made. As far as i'm concerned, all that is now payable by me is £42.50, payable to the bailiff for the 2 visits. What i'd like to know is what should be the course of action? I am inclined to call Ross and Roberts, inform them that the liability order is settled and ask how much is owed to them and, if £42.50 or less, make the payment and consider it all done and dusted. I'm just a bit wary, as i dont know how long it's going to take for the council to inform the bailiff of the settlement. If i call the bailiff and they still have outstanding amounts on their records, i dont want them making a last ditch attempt to levy and coming to my house creating a scene... I've never spoken to them on the phone, but i understand they can be quite nasty, and i dont want to poke a hornet's nest.

[tomtubby]

Simply send a letter to Ross & Roberts and advise them that you have made payment of the Liability Order in full to Wiltshire Council and that they have advised you to pay the bailiff fees direct to their company.

 

 

.

 

Dear Sirs,

Reference Number:

I am writing with regards to the above account.

As you will be aware from previous correspondence, I am classed as "vulnerable" according to the National Standards for Enforcement Agents. I am disabled and live alone and I am in receipt of Incapacity Benefit.

I wish to inform you that I have now paid the full amount of the Liability Order directly to Wiltshire Council. They have advised me that the matter of the bailiff fees must be addressed separately with your company.

As you will be aware, a bailiff from your firm made an initial visit to my home last November. A levy was not made on my goods. Accordingly, I am advised that the statutory fee scale provides that you can apply a charge of £24.50 to my account for "attending to levy" (where no levy was made). If a further 2nd such visit has been made, please provide evidence.

In the meantime, I am enclosing a cheque for £24.50 and unless you can provide evidence of a further visit, I consider that this payment clears my account with your company.

Yours sincerely

Mr Jo Blogs.

[majickal]

Thanks for that, and to everyone for their input.