Need Advise re a pup I sold

[Angry mum]

Don't want to post full details here, but if anybody knows the law or knows of anybody able to help me out regarding a pup I've sold please pm me.

 

Can't post full details on here in case person threatening reads.

 

Thanks.

[IdaInFife]

Its dependant if you are a licensed breeder or not

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1999/11/contents#pb2-l1g8

[Angry mum]

No, I'm just a private seller, hobby breeder, not licensed.

[IdaInFife]

without really knowing what the problem is can't really say

 

if it is due to 'poor' caring etc prior to sale then they can make complaint to rspca

 

also if it was for something like reimbursement of monies etc can go via courts etc

 

not something you can really answer without specifics i am afraid

[Angry mum]

Thanks anyway, have spoken to Trading Standards now, hopefully we have it sorted.

 

Definitely not to do with poor care prior to sale, pup was in perfect health/condition when he left and I have a vets report to prove it.

[Angry mum]

Just an update, pup owner has now decided she's taking this to a small claims court. Pup was sold in perfect health, new owner said at some stage she would like to use the dog at stud, pup left with endorsements saying he couldn't be used for breeding until he had clear eye test certificates, both mum and dad of pup were DNA tested clear for pra and FN - the two tests that are required by the KC, both clear, which ensures pup is clear too, both parents KC/BVA eye tested clear for pra and Glaucoma.

 

Pup went for eye test in November, only to find he had a condition called Entropian, something that cannot be tested for, a condition neither parent suffers from and which neither my vet or new owners vet picked up on and pup hasn't had a problem with it's eyes, he is now 1 year old. Owner has now decided he is not fit for the purpose he was sold.....he was sold as a pet at pet price.........but she is stating he was sold as a stud dog...........she chose him at 3 weeks of age, so not really sure how she knew he would be of a standard to be a stud dog. I have offered to take the dog back, but each time I write she responds demanding a full refund of cost of pup £700, cost of injections £38 and cost of operation £721 and not returning the dog. 3 times I have offered to take him back, get the op done myself, then find him a pet home and refund her any monies I get from the resale of the dog, but each time her letters come back demanding the nearly £1500.

 

At the start of this month, I received a small claims form from the courts, I have put my defence in, but not sure what happens next I have sought legal advise and am getting some great help from a doglaw solicitor, but still worrying none the less.

 

Any help offered really appreciated.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Angry mum

[hightail]

I only breed cats and things can be different with dogs but I have never known a claim like this succeed in court with cats and I've helped with a fair few. If you are only a hobby breeder and this was therefore a private sale then the general rule is that the only thing you are responsible for is proper description of what you are selling. You can't claim it's a pedigree when it isn't for example. All other parts of SOGA don't apply to private sales. That said, there was presumably a contract and we'd need to see that and the particulars of claim to advise properly.

[IdaInFife]

well i did come to advise that was gonna get hightail to have look but here already

[Angry mum]

Yes I did give a contract which stated I would only lift endorsements once the dog had clear eye certificates, which we both signed and my full contract, details below of which we both also signed:

 

 

Between

and

of

 

Whereby it is agreed as follows: That the Vendor will sell and the Purchaser(s) will buy the Puppy detailed below at the price of £

 

Puppy Name: Date Of Birth:

 

1. This puppy is believed to be in good health. Regular worming has been undertaken. . However, you are strongly advised to take him/her to your own Veterinary Surgeon, to be given a general health check within four days of purchase. This check, and any tests or examinations associated with it, must be at your expense.

2. If your Vet finds any problem, (excluding accidental injury) which, in his/her opinion, renders the puppy unfit for sale, I will on production of a Veterinary report to this effect, take the puppy back & a full refund of the purchase price will be given. This is on condition that the puppy is returned within five days of the date of purchase and he/she is in the same state of health as he/she was sold.

3. The purchaser(s) understands that whilst every care is take to breed sound healthy puppies free from hereditary defects, mating two dogs that are themselves clinically free of hereditary disease does not guarantee that the offspring will themselves be problem free. It is suggested that the purchaser(s) contact their veterinary surgeon for advice on hereditary problems found in the breed.

4. You, the purchaser(s), confirm that you have satisfied yourself/consulted your Vet about this breed and any possible diseases, genetic or otherwise, to which it is prone. You accept that if such a disease develops later in life, after a satisfactory preliminary examination by your Vet, I cannot be held responsible.

5. The purchaser(s) acknowledges that he/she has inspected the puppy and that he/she agrees to buy the puppy solely as a result of that inspection and on the basis of the terms of this agreement (which shall constitute all the terms of sale and purchase) and not in reliance upon any representation whether written or oral or implied made by or on behalf of the vendor.

6. The purchaser(s) agrees to take good care of the dog, to provide quality nutrition, shelter and medical care including vaccinations as recommend by their Vet and to ensure the physical and emotional wellbeing of the dog at all times.

7. If at any time the purchaser(s) can no longer retain possession of this dog, the vendor is to be notified and given FIRST OPTION of resuming full ownership of the aforementioned dog. Any monies owing to the purchaser(s) following the return of the aforementioned dog will be refunded to the purchaser(s) following the re-sale of the aforementioned dog. The amount refunded would take into consideration the costs incurred by the breeder in caring for the dog and locating an approved and suitable new home. The dog must be returned with his/her Kennel Club Registration papers, microchip registration form and any medical records.

8. The purchaser(s) agrees that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES that the dog will be placed in a rescue home or similar establishment.

9. The purchaser(s) acknowledge receipt of a Kennel Club Registration form, and a copy of the aforementioned dogs Pedigree.

10. The purchaser(s) understands that the dog has been registered with the Kennel Club and that the registration has been endorsed with "Not eligible for the issue of an export pedigree" and "Progeny not eligible for registration", in accordance with Kennel Club Regulations for imposing endorsements Under no circumstances will this dog be used for cross breeding of any sort. As it is your intentions to hopefully use the dog at stud at a later date once he has clear eye test certificates, the endorsements will only be lifted once I have received copies of the clear eye test certificates.

 

By the signature below, the Purchaser(s) confirm that they/we understand the terms of this agreement and accept them as written.

 

 

SIGNED by the above mentioned

Vendor..............................................................

 

 

SIGNED by the above mentioned

 

Purchaser(s): ..............................................................

Date……………………………………………………………………..

[hightail]

OK. What do the particulars of claim say? I'm sure nobody will mind if you would prefer to pm me in the first instance and then I'd put my thoughts up as general points on the thread.

[Angry mum]

Have sent you a long pm......thanks

[janmal2000]

what happend with this?

[Angry mum]

Still on going, she is taking me to small claims court - I've nothing to hide, have taken legal advise and they agree that she is being greedy and hopefully the judge will see it that way too.

 

She applied for her moneyclaim online, it has now been referred to my local county court, 2 weeks ago I returned the allocation questionnaire, all papers have been received back and I have to wait to hear back from the district judge........anything up to 4 months!!

[janmal2000]

the court system is horrendous, you have my sympathies. i have to take someone to court for damage to my car that happened April 2010, the final hearing has recently been set for June 2011!!! i know my case has more complex issues than yours but it still took until Dec to get anywhere with it.

 

when i breed i too put in a contract stating pretty much what you said, no-one can predict the future and as such you can only state 'at this time'. i always though this was sufficient cover to cases such as this so im going to keep watching with interest.

someone tried to buy a male pup off me a few years ago and i just didnt get the right vibes, they stated pet home etc, i took a cheque deposit off them, but never banked it, something was saying ther was something wrong. after a few more emails and telephone chats it turned out they were going to start breeding, had just bought a bitch before coming to me (didnt tell me prior or for ages), then ended up slipping they had other dogs they breed. i cancelled sale, they threatened take me to court for cancelling the sale!

some people are not all there, and do try things on just for money etc. so good luck to you. glad you have had legal advice, please keep posting updates on here and if any issues arrive then maybe we can help you. the judges do tend to be very fair and balanced, esp if you get a switched-on one, its just very nerve-wracking and intimidating. you never know, she may even drop the case.

one thing to remember, if it goes all the way and awarded in your favour - you may be able to charge costs against her for your time spent defending the case!! (depends which method the claim gets processed through)

[hightail]

I suspect this is one of those where the OP was meant to cave in and pay up in fear and trembling when the envelope from Northampton landed on the doormat. It's too easy for someone to start the whole thing off in a fit of temper where they wouldn't dream of doing so if they had to pop into a court to pick up the forms. I'm fast coming to the conclusion that MCOL is the nearest thing we have to a tax on stupidity.

[Minkiesmum]

It sounds to me like you did everything right regarding the pup's sale AND have been more than fair in offering to have him back......I'd say she's being grasping and hopefully won't get anywhere and the judge will consider it a timewasting exercise.

Do let us know how it goes !!

 

Lynda~

[Angry mum]

Thank you for all the kind advise, will let you know how it goes, like I said I'm a hobby breeder of PET cocker spaniels, but do all relevant health tests required of the breed to ensure I breed healthy pups, sadly the problem that arose with this pup is something that neither parent suffers from or can be tested for, both parents held clear current eye test certificates when the litter was born, so not really sure how I was supposed to know that something would crop up 10 months down the line. Even the owner didn't know there was a problem until she took him to the KC/BVA clinic for eye testing.

 

Keep everything crossed for us, will let you know any updates.

[jackieandwayne]

I'm confused about this etropian thing - when I had guinea pigs, I had to check the new born's eyes to ensure they did not have ingrowing eyelashes, a common problem, which can lead to ulcers. My vet taught me how to do this, and to deal with them, and I'm sure he said "etropian". It was some years ago mind you.

 

But anyway this person is a greedy dishonest whatnot, and you are a completely honest and decent hobby breeder. I'm pretty sure you will win, however, fingers crossed you get a genuine old tweedie of a judge, who loves dogs, and then there will be no problem! I believe it all depends on what the judge had for breakfast as to how he or she interprets the law on any given day!

 

So, you defend yourself and make a stand, then the next time it happens you'll be more confident. Don;t worry about Court, they are only people like you and I. This is an emotive subject so i shall say to you now, whatever is said to you, whatever the old whatnot says, stay calm, do not get upset, and you will walk this, and she will look exactly what she is. Good luck.

[Angry mum]

Thank you!

 

The whole litter was checked over by my vet before they left and all declared fit and healthy, I have a copy of the vets report here to submit to the courts when documented evidence is asked for, even the now owners vet checked them over after they left and no problems found.

[Angry mum]

Well the court date has come through, 4th April at ******* County Court, I've now to write out my statement, send a copy and all documents to both other party and the courts, no later than 2 weeks before the case is due to be heard.

 

I'll send it off to the courts on Monday, but she can wait a bit longer! she had to pay £70 for her online claim, but now it's gone on to be a hearing she's got to pay another £100, which I can't see her being happy about, plus she's now going to have to send me any evidence of her claim which so far she's not done, just expected me to pay her the £1490. I've also agreed to Mediation, I contacted them on Friday, they have noted that I am prepared to try and sort this without the courts getting involved, but like they said BOTH parties have to be willing.

 

If she doesn't pay by the 20th February, then the case will get struck off and won't go any further, but I think because of her greed she will continue to see how much she can get out of me.

[hightail]

It's very easy to start the process with MCOL and I'm sure many people don't think past that initial claim. I'm sure you are right that the claimant won't be at all happy with the costs and the work involved putting together whatever evidence they think they have - tough. She thought it was worth the initial payment to try and frighten you into paying her. Only time will tell if she really thinks it's worth going further.

[janmal2000]

ok, leave the return of papers to as late as possible, i agree with that as its less time they have them to dispute what you say.

the fact you have agreed to mediation (and so far she hasnt/doesnt) will work in your favour. what are you going to do if she does agree?

put in your statement the date you date contacted the mediation service.

lay everything out in time-line in your statement what happened and include a copy of your contract of sale, which she signed.

refer to the wording in it 'at this time the pup was sold as healthy etc', any terms and conditions of return, and any future health covered. put in your medical evidence showing both parents were clear and you did the best you could to ensure pups were not born with hereditary conditions, but again at the time of sale, none were present.

print a good report of this condition off the web which will show that it doesnt present itself until xxxx age, and you were unable to predict the future.

are you able to get a report from your vet to also state this and to act as a character reference for you?

what about any of the other pups? are they all clear or do they have this condition - if clear then you can use these statistics showing x % minority.

also, any new owner references about you would never hurt to be added!

bombard the court with irrefutable evidence that you did everything in your power to ensure these pups were born healthy and would never have sold an unhealthy pup- which the pup was totally healthy when sold- and it was beyond your control that unfortunatly this little one has an eye condition that was impossible to predict at time of sale and not before xxx months.

also put in what you have done to resolve this complaint and why you feel that her demands are unreasonable.

 

if it does end up in the court, dont panic, its more daunting the more you think of it, but try keep calm, and we will help you through it as much as possible. if you post your contract, defence on here we can read through and guide you if needed

[Surfer01]

It reads as i she is now considering backing off. You prepared yourself well for such an eventuality. As breeders, we have only once come across this type of scenario.and also filed a defence. In the end we gave them a partial refund and took back the pup which is not 12 years old and still with us.

[Angry mum]

Ok, latest update, she's agreed to mediation........I'm going to offer the same again, refund on pup as long as I get him back, or I will offer to pay for the operation once I've had proof of her claim (so far have had nothing) and I want to pay the vet directly, not to her. Mediation is Monday at 11am, so watch this space.

 

I'm having doubts she actually has a vets report to back her claim.

[jackieandwayne]

Don;t be offering to pay for operations. If she keeps the pup, that's her responsiblity. However, stick to your guns about refunding her and having the pup back with you; and then you can let him have his op - but if she wants to keep the dog, then why should you pay out for something you don't own and could not foresee?

 

I know you'll come back and say "pup welfare comes first" and therein lies your argument, doesn't it, as to who is best placed to have the pup. She prefers to have a court battle over it whilst you would prefer (I reckon) just to let the poor boy have an op and be done with it all, and get on with being a pet to someone who deserves him.

 

Sorry if I come over harsh - I am distraught. My friend and I went to visit a young woman this morning with one of those lovely little staffie pups - about 6 months old. She wonders why she has problems - she keeps it locked in a shed, with no toys and no company during the day. I hope it rips her throat out, I really do. But before we let it get to that stage, I'm just about to report her to our local RSPCA guy. We'll go back this evening and try and persuade her to hand the little one over to us so we can rehab and rehome. I really, really had to bite my tongue this morning. If my Taz would accept a pup in the house, I might just consider keeping this little one myself. We'll see.