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Out of court Settlement with Nine Regions Ltd T/A Log Book Loans (WON!)


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Hang on I have found a case, which is very useful in my view. Citation is Seal v Claridge (1881) 7 QBD 5. This case is available as a full judgment (I have the copy and can supply to 'credible' persons on request). The judgment goes into some detail as to the purpose of a witness (or attesting person) for a BOS. Talks about having an interest in the outcome etc.

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Dear tgsh2006

I would be interested in receiving a copy of this.

Several of the points you have offered I have mentioned previously.

My opinion (not a legal one) LBL have a slight upper hand currently in that it has been passed that their employees cannot be excluded from witnessing an agreement. I personally have no problem with this. The secretary, the tea lady etc can witness, ie persons that do not have a gain from the outcome.

But for the underwriter to sign off on everything (judge jury executioner), at very least this is unfair relationship. It is my belief that this has never been argued before. If this argument was successful every LBL would probably become unenforceable.

Good luck to those fighting this blood sucking company.

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If you PM me I can organise a full copy of the judgment. The case relied on by LBL can be distinguished on quite a few points. Firstly it is very much Pre CCA 1974 (obviously) and therefore does not take into account the unique facts and protections that Parliament intended via the CCA 1974. LBL's BOS is attached to a regulated CCA 1974 agreement therefore I believe the Seal case is better authority, as it deals with the key point about having no interest in the outcome etc etc. Despite what LBL may claim the issue has NOT been the subject of a judgment on 'all fours' by the higher courts.

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Hang on I have found a case, which is very useful in my view. Citation is Seal v Claridge (1881) 7 QBD 5. This case is available as a full judgment (I have the copy and can supply to 'credible' persons on request). The judgment goes into some detail as to the purpose of a witness (or attesting person) for a BOS. Talks about having an interest in the outcome etc.

 

Hi tgsh2006

Do you mind if we debate the citation you refer to....?

 

My thoughts are that the case was heard in 1881 - so the comments made in the Judgment refer to the 1878 BoS Act; I would be very wary if you intend to rely on such a judgment; simply because the reference made to section 10.1 of the 1878 Act would not be relevant today.

 

Why?... because the 1878 Act was amended by the BoS 1882 Act and section 10 was amended also - there is no longer an instant where a solicitor would attest any Bill of Sale - what they will do of course; as we all know is, to swear the affidavit - which is the oath taken by the lenders representative that they witnessed you sign the BoS and the agreement etc etc - the 'representative' is the person that the amended act now refers to - and requires that this so called representative is a 'credible witness'

 

Since the amendment to the BoS Act 1878 - I believe to take a lender to task over the 'credibility of the witness' is a grey area - and certainly not one to rely on alone - sure, bring it into the equation - but do so on the premise that you have relevant evidence to back up your submission..... I don't consider that the citation above would help a consumer - sorry, but that's my opinion.

 

Further, given the clear logic of the Judge when he speaks of whether an employee should/could sign on behalf of the Company (lender) and he's point as to whether the employee would derive a commission etc... - I again, fail to see how he's logic would help consumers looking to rely on the un-credability of the witness as party to their defence??

 

Apple : )

[COLOR="red"][B][CENTER]"Errors do not cease to be errors simply because they’re ratified into law.” [/CENTER][/B][/COLOR][B][CENTER] E.A. Bucchianeri[/CENTER][/B]

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Dear tgsh2006

I would be interested in receiving a copy of this.

Several of the points you have offered I have mentioned previously.

My opinion (not a legal one) LBL have a slight upper hand currently in that it has been passed that their employees cannot be excluded from witnessing an agreement. I personally have no problem with this. The secretary, the tea lady etc can witness, ie persons that do not have a gain from the outcome.

But for the underwriter to sign off on everything (judge jury executioner), at very least this is unfair relationship. It is my belief that this has never been argued before. If this argument was successful every LBL would probably become unenforceable.

Good luck to those fighting this blood sucking company.

 

If LBL have a 'slightly upper hand' on who signs their agreement - then it spells sense for any consumer to avoid citing the citation from Seal because from what I read; that citation supports it!!!!

 

Apple

[COLOR="red"][B][CENTER]"Errors do not cease to be errors simply because they’re ratified into law.” [/CENTER][/B][/COLOR][B][CENTER] E.A. Bucchianeri[/CENTER][/B]

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I am currently looking to bring a case against Nine Regions based on this very point. I looked up the cited case on Lexis Nexis and unfortunately it does not contain the full judgment (just the head note). Whilst it was held that an Agent could act as witness I feel that the correct way of challenge would be in the context of the CCA 1974; i.e. if the witness has signed the CCA 1974 agreement as a party (in other words for and on behalf of Nine Regions Ltd) then there is a line of argument to distinguish present day BOS covered by a CCA 1974 agreement with what happened in the cited case over a century ago. Looking at the case law database the point has NOT been raised, and therefore it is yet to be decided in the higher courts. Therefore if the OP (or anyone else) is considering this poiint I'd be happy to chat in private etc.

 

One thing I have noticed is this affadavit, I assume people have obtained this from the Judgments and Orders section at the RCJ? I only ask as when I was doing my own research no affadavit pertaining to the BOS in question appears to be with the paperwork. Another method of general challenge is were Nine Regions fail to serve a valid Default Notice, one can then go for a Declatory Judgment against Nine Regions.

 

With respect, trying to piece together old out of date case law with the current CCA 1974 as amended just simply wouldn't work!! - I'm unsure of the message you are bringing to the forum here - I'm sure it is not your intention to confuse caggers? - would you mind making a clear point, so that we can debate and discuss on the forum?

 

Apple

[COLOR="red"][B][CENTER]"Errors do not cease to be errors simply because they’re ratified into law.” [/CENTER][/B][/COLOR][B][CENTER] E.A. Bucchianeri[/CENTER][/B]

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Evening all

 

give me a few days to go back over this thrread

 

ime doing an sd set aside at the moment for another Caggeer

 

Hi Postggj, thank you for your post of 16th October. If you could have a peruse over this thread and give an opine, when it is convenient for you to do so, It would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Hip_Hop

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I want to get back to the question of the 'thread' as this is a perfectly fair question and is one that many consumers ask once they have secured a declaration that the Bill of Sale is void.............

 

I have pondered on this scenerio for many months and I conclude the following..............

 

The reality is - if the Bill of Sale is void yet it's detail is shown on the original credit agreement - this in my mind renders the agreement 'untrue' and in breach of the CCA 1974 - given that the prescribed terms are that the agreement should not contain any 'implied' terms etc -

 

If you have an agreement that makes reference to a security instrument - when no such document or security exists - then the agreement can only be enforced by a Judge...

 

For a Judge to enforce such a document - there are a few factors that would have to come into play....

 

a) when was the agreement taken out - if it is taken out BEFORE April 2007 - then the Judge would be precluded from amending or rectifying the agreement by virtue of s127 3 & 4

b) have you signed a new agreement without the security showing

c) have you signed a new bill of sale and a new agreement

d) was your agreement entered into after April 2007 - if it was then the Judge now has the right to decide if the agreement can be amended and updated to reflect the new position

 

b) & c) as a consumer it would be foolhearty to sign a new agreement with a lender in such circumstances.....

 

In essence; where an agreement was entered into prior to April 2007 and you have a unenforceable BoS that is detailed in a loan agreement as security - the Judge will argue that whilst the BoS is Void; that the loan is NOT - having said that where the agreement was taken out prior to April 2007 - the Judge has to accept along with the lender that by virtue of s 127 3 & 4 - there is not a thing that either the lender or the court can do to enforce the loan.

 

In fact nine times out of ten; the reality of the situation is that no consumer would ever be in such a situation unless the lender has already enforced the agreement - (ie. teminated it) - where the lenders Bill of Sale is found to be unenforceable in such a circumstance - the lender has to consider if in fact - they are not the ones in breach of their own agreement - and where they have enforced the agreement without an order from the court -(i.e terminated it and/or taken a vehicle - they are definately in breach and this is where the situation changes........

 

'repudiation' kicks in - along with a right to the consumer of restitution - so it becomes an all together different ball game.

[COLOR="red"][B][CENTER]"Errors do not cease to be errors simply because they’re ratified into law.” [/CENTER][/B][/COLOR][B][CENTER] E.A. Bucchianeri[/CENTER][/B]

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  • 2 weeks later...

i think he did it himself

 

i certainly eould not pay anyone

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hip Hop

 

I am in a simular position. Needing to bring a claim against LBL

 

However struggling to find a solicitor that can/will deal with the matter.

 

Have you had any joy?

 

Hi JGG.

 

With respect you are not in a similar position to myself as I am not thinking at all about bringing a fresh claim against LBL. Why would I? I had a formal judgment made against Nine regions and the vehicle ordered to be returned, which was complied with.

 

I have negotiated directly for recompense without the use of a solicitor, as I generally have a low opinion of solicitor's as such, and I believe the costs just don't justify the rewards of using one.

No offense, but no solicitor can negotiate as good as I can, as the claimant in my case. Nor do I consider they have my attention to detail nor my commercial experience of negotiating a better settlement once the legal scoring is completed.

 

Granted if matters remain unresolved than I will need to reconsider my options but at this stage, I don't see a Solicitor having all ther solutions.

 

I have laid out my losses and where appropriate, shown strict proof of any such losses with evidence to back up any such claim for losses.

 

LBL have agreed to settle and I am awaiting a final offer from LBL which should be forthcoming shortly.

 

In any event, I thought I had already answered your question fully JGG previously on your other thread? Indeed, Applecart added his viewpoint too? But you appear no further forward, despite this ?

 

Isn't your situation a simple case of agreeing a material loss on your side and agreeing a figure of compensation for that loss? There is no need for any other legal advice, no need to look at archaic Bills of Sales etc why would it be so difficult to get a solicitor to agree to do this on youir behalf say,for a percentage? Why are you struggling to find some one? Surely, they just need to negotiate on your behalf, they don't need to be experts in Bills of sales nor log book loans. You are just negotiating a settlement that will make trhis go away for both parties. I don't get what the issue is that is stopping you from doing so?

 

I don't want to repeat myself in an endless loop but the question that has to be asked again is....

 

Why do you think you need to bring any fresh claim against LBL when the judge at your hearing, which LBL had already withdrawn their claim from,when you both appeared before him, ordered you both just to settle?

 

As LBL had already dropped the claim against you before the hearing, and subsequently there being no claim for you to answer. The direction by the judge was for you to approach a solicitor in order to have legal representation to negotiate a settlement. I thought that situation was clearly as directed by the judge?

 

One has to ask, when all that was required of you, was to provide a basic loss incurred list and figures laying out that material loss (easily done through a solicitor on your behalf or a cost draughtsman, as suggested by Applecart) Why haven't you done this yet?

 

If you would have fulfilled this simple process with the help of either of the above legal professionals, you would than just be agreeing a figure supported by evidence of any such losses mutually acceptable to both sides?

 

Why haven't you been able to do that? what has stopped you? Why are you confusing the direction to settle, with a need to make a fresh claim against LBL when there isn't a legal case too answer?

 

You will understand if I am now perplexed to be reading you want to make a fresh claim against LBL again. And not ask , what are you are trying to achieve today by putting off the action to settle tomorrow?

 

Please note, If you are brought back before the judge and asked to explain why you haven't been able to instruct a solicitor to negotiate a settlement. In my opinion, he will be mightily peeved off with you JGG, because you are looking to obstruct the directions so given, by looking to bringing a fresh claim? Careful JGG otherwise you may be penalised with costs and an unfavourable judgment if you fail to follow the instructions as laid down in the directions.

 

I assume as I have mentioned before, that the judge must have realised that you might have an issue coming to a commercial settlement, which is clearly evidenced to date and why he was directing you to get legal representation. Something you appear to have failed to have achieved?

 

Obviously, If I have misinterpreted anything, please advise. But you will know by now, I call a spade a spade and am straight talking. I will leave it to others to tell you how many millions you can get if you make additional legal challenges. I for one would look to get LBL tied down to an acceptable offer that will allow you to get on with your life and move on, otherwise the legal costs going back to court may be decidedly punitive to the losing side.

 

As always, just giving my penny's worth with the usual caveats etc

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just thought I would post (I promised I would), my good news as the Log Book threads have been short of good cheer recently.

 

Also good news stories tend to be stifled after signing any confidentiality agreement which, is why you never get to hear what happens to 99% of cases settled out of court!

 

So, I am posting to let you all know, before any such compromise agreement has been received so, happy reading......

 

I have finally reached agreement with Nine Regions Ltd T/A Log Book Loans to accept their financial offer to settle and to withdraw my claim against them.

 

By way of background fellow Caggers, and for those who have not been following my story since I first posted on this site on the 25th August, here is my brief background story.

 

My cherished Jag XJ8 was unlawfully seized on the 3rd August by Anglia.

 

My Claim was personally lodged in to court on 6th August (additionally, unsealed copy of claim was sent to LBL directly as was copy to LBL's Account Manager at British Car Auctions too). You can never play too safe can you? After all, the court system is not infallible is it?

 

Service of claim from the court, reached LBL late August. Reaffirming my earlier concerns, hence the reason I put them both clearly on notice by sending them an unsealed copy too. No point losing your car at auction, because they claim they never saw sight of the claim or that the example was a sealed claim that arrive after auction, making it completely impotent!

 

Hearing took place late September and order made. Jag and Log Book returned 2 days after the hearing -see my earlier post for details.

 

Directions hearing took place early November. I pressed judge for early reasonable settlement date at the hearing and got granted 14 days from that date included in the order!

 

There's nothing clearer than a judge making a quick date for settlement a proviso, to definitely get the other side to focus on coming forward with a workable offer!

 

Figure of c£5,200 finally agreed directly between us.......And that folk’s was the end of the Settlement negotiations.

Just the consent order to be suitably worded for the court’s approval (as so ordered by the judge) and posted to court to fulfill the 14 days time period to agree settlement as so ordered.

Finally consent order needs to be stamped, after being passed by a judge or other senior court official, so that LBL can release cheque.

 

Mustn't forget to mention...All HPI markers etc agreed previously in writing as part of the settlement, to be removed, as will any other finance and other credit markers that have been registered to the car or my person will be removed too.

Loan agreement settled in full, and hopefully, life and car to be returned to their respective status quo, prior to Log Book entering my life?

 

So don't give up hope fellow Caggers and never forget, everything and everyone has a price, you just need to ascertain what that price is. Remember to K.I.S.S (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

 

Oh by the way,no Solicitors instructed. No Bill of Sale argument used. Just focused on what can be proven absolutely, backed up by evidence that would put pressure on the other side that they had a claim to defend and potentially for their legal costs to be ratcheted upwards! Always an incentive for the other side to settle!

Result.... an additional financial reward as well as getting a judgment for the return of the car and my log book!.

 

CCTV Engineer previously publicly posted in a thread of mine,

 

 

cctv engineer said:
Hip-hop. now your court case ........ you do know it will be only to get your car back. (you say a few weeks) that is imposable to get lbl to court over your bill of sale and ca will be 4 to 6 months

 

How about 3 months CCTV?

 

Jag saved from being auctioned post 5 days of being seized, actually returned 8 weeks later! My log book too.

 

And, a substantial compensation figure agreed to boot on top of the returned car!! All, in less than 3 months from the Service of Claim on 25th August.

 

Getting a substantial compensation package from Nine Regions Ltd as a direct borrower with Log Book Loans,( as opposed to cases settled directly with 3rd party victims that purchase cars with existing Log Book Loans), is unheard of, but I am proof as a Borrower, that it can be done!!! So not that "imposable!" (sic) was it CCTV?

 

I could not be happier and hope that others can share similar successes in their endeavours, where they have been treated unlawfully by this company too.

 

Must get some sleep before the post arrives and a possible compromise agreement too?

 

BTW, does this make a suitable posting for a sticky?:-D

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Well It looks as if my cosy relationship with Nine Regions Ltd t/a Log Book Loans is coming to a close....

 

The approved consent order came over as promised via email earlier (yesterday).

 

l have signed the consent and posted it promptly back.

 

All was above board, although interestingly no confidentiality clause...should get cheque within 10 days if not before.

 

At most, within 14 days, asit is decreed in the consent order, from yesterday's date. LBL have said they generally generate cheques quickly, in these circumstances.

 

Will drop a quick line when it arrives.

 

Having spent 3 months on this all consuming affair. I really don't know how others have managed to stick it out for 1-2 years, for resolution, and still retaining their sanity?

 

Anyway, I wish everyone well and do hope that I read of more success stories to follow.

 

Keep those posts factual.

 

Best wishes to all.

Edited by Hip_Hop
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As this was the thread that detailed the original order and judgment of the 28th Sept 2010 that resulted in my Jaguar XJ8 3.2 sport with private plate and log book being returned to me on 30th September,

I thought I would update it for you and add the out of court settlement link which was recently agreed with Nine Regions Ltd t/a Log Book Loans following the directions hearing, heard on the 5th November.

 

 

Click on http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?284310-Out-of-court-Settlement-with-Nine-Regions-Ltd-T-A-Log-Book-Loans-(WON!)

 

Needless to say, one very happy bunny-That's Harvey the invisible rabbit! I on the other hand, am more than just happy. I'm ecstatic!!!

Edited by Hip_Hop
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great news!!

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Congratulations! Hip_hop.

 

I am in the same boat as you used to be. I am currently been sued by LBL for excess interest even though I have already paid them a lot of money. I am desperately in need of a good solicitor and soon.

 

Could you please recommend yours. I will appreciate it if you send me a note if you can.

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No solictor was used

OFT debt collection guidance

 

Please remember the only stupid question is the one you dont ask so dont worry about asking the stupid questions.

 

Essex girl in pc world looking 4 curtains 4 her pc,the assistant says u dont need curtains 4 a computer!!Essex girl says,''HELLOOO!! i,ve got WINDOWS!!'.

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Congratulations! Hip_hop.

 

I am in the same boat as you used to be. I am currently been sued by LBL for excess interest even though I have already paid them a lot of money. I am desperately in need of a good solicitor and soon.

 

Could you please recommend yours. I will appreciate it if you send me a note if you can.

 

Hi Londreza, welcome to the CAG. I wasn't being sued by LBL, I initiated a claim against them when they unlawfully seized my Jag. And, as Godmother pointed out. I didn't use a solicitor, I was a Litigant in person so don't have one that I can personally recommend.

 

The CAG have a wide membership that have a variety of knowledge and experience to draw upon. Like all public forums, one has to pick and choose wisely what advice to act upon, with care.

 

What issues are LBL claiming you are in breach of? You need to give more information so that other Caggers can contribute in the forum to the options and potential solutions available to you. This is after all a self help forum.

 

Without revealing personal info as some claim that LBL troll these pages. Although, I am not sure what they could find out that would cause them any sleepness nights?

It's possibly sensible, to be cautious in any event.

Any way, let the forum know what the issues that LBL are claiming you are in breach of. The more info you can provide, the more help you will attract. Site moderators prefer that the debates are held publicly so that all can benefit. If we all hold discussions in private and only liaise via private messages, than only a small minority benefit. Public discourse, encourages open debate and contributions. So post, and I am sure others will be along to offer guidance and advice.

 

Good luck

 

Hip_Hop

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks Hip_Hop for the reply. I am not as good as you to deal with Log Book Loans on my own. I need professional help asap.

 

Does anybody else know of a good solicitor who is familiar with Log Book Loans (LBL)? I will be grateful if you could send me his/her details.

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Hi Londreza,

 

Just a reminder, that this is a self help forum and with respect, you still haven't posted any details of your problems with LBL?

 

Posting a request just asking for a solicitor's details who has specific experience of dealing with LBL will get minimal response. Mainly, because even if there was such an individual, geographically, you may both be 100's of miles apart before you could establish if their experience, matches your requirements?

 

May I suggest again, that you post your issues on this forum and allow other members to contribute advice etc?

 

Armed with that advice, you can then approach a Litigation solicitor, if the general consensus is that you need one at this stage.

 

Whatever your next step is, please be aware that it is normal etiquette, to start your own thread, rather than hijack another poster's thread.

 

 

Thanks Hip_Hop for the reply. I am not as good as you to deal with Log Book Loans on my own. I need professional help asap.

 

Does anybody else know of a good solicitor who is familiar with Log Book Loans (LBL)? I wil

Edited by Hip_Hop
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Hi Hip Hop

 

Well done!!!! I trust you are sitting pretty on a lovely cheque in time for the festive season : )

 

Congratulations!!!!

[COLOR="red"][B][CENTER]"Errors do not cease to be errors simply because they’re ratified into law.” [/CENTER][/B][/COLOR][B][CENTER] E.A. Bucchianeri[/CENTER][/B]

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