metropolitan,can someone tell if this is enforceable agreement

[Guest jsa12]

after some eight months i have finally received whats been claimed as a cca and terms and conditions.

can someone please check the enforceability of this agreement,i would be very greatful.

 

however i don't think this is the original as i remember that i filled out my employers name and address on the original,and i don't ever recall a "pad" document cca.they have also sent a list of payments i have made since the account was sent to them as well as further later terms and conditions.

cca.pdf

tc page 1.pdf

tc page 2.pdf

tc page 3.pdf

tc page 4.pdf

[dadofholly]

Midland Bank?

 

How old is this?

 

When did you last make a payment on this account?

 

Who is it that is now claiming the money?

[Guest jsa12]

the account was opened in late 96 yes midland bank,my last payment to metropolitan was in around march.its taken all this time for this to arrive they ignored the original letter and had to push.so its metropolitan collection services that are the company,the cca had my old address hand written but nothing else,it looked like the writing of the person who signed the letter "mcs".

[dadofholly]

How long have you been making payments to metropolitan?

 

how long was it between you making last payment to midland bank and payments to the DCA?

[Guest jsa12]

about 5 years to mcs.

[dadofholly]

Looking at the agreement they have complied with your CCA request by sending it to you - BUT as it is not the original signed copy they would not be able to take any enforcement action against you.

 

Before starting payments with MCS when was your last payment to Midland or anyone else acting on their behalf.

 

Just seems such a long time ago i was wondering if it was statute barred at some point.

 

The other thing is - who are MSC claimining to be acting for - or do they claim they own the debt?

[Guest jsa12]

no it hasnt been statute barred the last payment to hsbc was in 2005,i am not happy with that cca it doesnt look like what i filled in originally.it was sent to mcs direct from hsbc.

 

i was going to send this.

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.Additionally i require the underwriting sheet or other document showing any commissions paid to you by the broker or by you to the broker

 

Obviously if the agreement is improperly executed i would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides.

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by 4pm on XXXX Date ( Give 21 days to respond)

[dadofholly]

Unless they can produce a signed copy they can not take court action.

[Guest jsa12]

its all a bit flakey,the t&c's seem to have the the interest charges,however its unclear to me the legal refinements.

[dadofholly]

REF: Post 7

 

yes you can send them that letter - they will probably reply that they dont have too and quote recent case history. But at least you will have made the request.

 

They will be correct to a degree - but can not take court action without the original signed agreement.

[Guest jsa12]

i found this here.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?173201

 

to be honest i dont know what they have sent would be enforceable or not,it certainly does not look like later cca s',they have sent something but as the above thread states there are risks taking at face value.

 

the prescribed terms are not on the agreement sent,this is another reason for my query.

[Guest jsa12]

many thanks dadofholly for your help,the statement covers the last five years payments to metropolitan,i need to audit more so its not what i need more documents'.

[dadofholly]

My opinion is that the agreement they have sent you - in it's current form - is not enforceable.

 

Anyone else able to have a look and add their views?

[Guest jsa12]

many thanks dadofholly i have been looking into this and it appears very similar to the cary v hsbc situation,what they have sent is not suitable,the agreement can apparently be spread over pages these must be stapled to the original agreement by hsbc's own admission and is in effect not a true copy by sending the seperate terms and conditions'.

 

its very very open to debate of such a method of sheets of paper stapled together is a satisfactory cca,this would be totally unheard of today with all in one cca agreements seen, it raises many questions'.there is no mention of default situations charges and penalties only reference to credit agencies,a full audit of expenditure/charges is required also.

 

again many thanks for your help and it appears you are correct at this time with what has been supplied.it may take a court to sort all this out as their earlier behavior towards collection needs evaluating also.i do not recall this type of agreement.

 

they have not given a deadline to reply,its time for the local county court i think so its a case of wait.

[Old Cogger]

The usual HSBC form much arguments upon, pity not oiriginal ACCESS card from the beginning of issue, they were sent out will nilly to Bank Account Holders by their Bank, with the premis that if used once that was the agreement belive it or not!!!!

[Guest jsa12]

thanks mike.well i never had one of these card types at all and the cca supplied i never remember signing anything like that, and there are other factors' in this,one thing in going to court i will be able to put my side of the story,they may try and sell this on but as the accounts still in dispute from my side despite what they think the template letter will cover that.

[Guest jsa12]

think this letter covers the matter nicely,the forgery template for those exposed to the same.

 

 

CA Dispute - Forged Document Supplied

Quote:

Dear Sirs,

 

Account No: XXXXXXXX

 

Having recently requested a copy of the alleged original Credit Agreement (CCA), in line with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77-s.79), I was dismayed to receive what can only be described as a fraudulent document.

 

My reason(s) for this claim are set out below:

 

• Enter reason here, for example: 'I never lived at the address that is showing until 3 years after the account was opened'....
  
• Enter additional reasons as appropriate
  

Kindly take a look at the following article which may shed some light on what the law considers a 'True Copy' - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8393768.stm

 

I quote, from this article:

The OFT goes on to advise that lenders would be acting unfairly, and potentially in breach of their consumer credit licenses, if they misled borrowers by:

• hiding or disguising the fact that there was never a proper signed agreement in the first place

• providing only a copy of the current terms and conditions, not the original ones

As is clear, sending me a document that clearly was not in place at the time of the alleged agreement was sent to me, I think we can both agree that this does indeed directly breach OFT Guidance.

 

So, as you have failed to comply with my lawful request for a true, signed copy of the agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested but instead sent a forgery, any legal action you pursue will be averred as both unlawful & vexatious. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment and pursue legal action for the attempted fraud.

 

You may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under s.10 of the Data Protection Act (1998) to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Any attempted argument regarding case law such as McGuffick v RBS or Carey v HSBC will be dismissed as those particular cases have no bearing on the legal reporting methods that a lender has with the CRA, namely adding derogatory data whilst an account is in dispute - this account clearly is disputed.

 

As a result of everything put together in this letter, I do feel it would be in your best interests to consider this matter closed and write off the balance as a business loss. The last thing you need right now is bad publicity and a legal loss, by presenting a forged document that we both know does not and will never satisfy clear guidelines set out in s.127(3) CCA(1974).

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 30 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data and your reasoning as to why you issued a forged document under the pretence it was a copy of the original. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 30 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Need I remind you that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute? The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

*

You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

*

You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

*

You may not pass the account to a third party.

*

You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

*

You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit unless you contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint. I therefore request a copy of your official complaints procedure which you are obliged to supply.

In light of the above, I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and look forward to hearing from you, in writing within 30 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

 

 

Sign digitally

[nicklea]

no it hasnt been statute barred the last payment to hsbc was in 2005,i am not happy with that cca it doesnt look like what i filled in originally.it was sent to mcs direct from hsbc.

 

i was going to send this.

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.Additionally i require the underwriting sheet or other document showing any commissions paid to you by the broker or by you to the broker

 

Obviously if the agreement is improperly executed i would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides.

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by 4pm on XXXX Date ( Give 21 days to respond)

 

 

Be very very very careful about this. Since the case of Kneale v Barclays Bank earlier this year

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2010/1900.html

 

you need to be really careful about making any application under CPR 31.16 otherwise, certainly if you try to take them to court, you will be faced with a very big costs bill.

 

The case concerned an appeal by Barclaycard against Judge Halbert's decision to grant an order for pre-action disclosure, compelling Barclaycard to provide an original or photocopy of Mr Kneale's signed credit agreement. Judge Flaux allowed the appeal, dismissing the application for pre-action disclosure and ordering that the Applicant pay Barclaycard's costs both at first instance and before him.

 

pt2537 has already warned about this

[nicklea]

My opinion is that the agreement they have sent you - in it's current form - is not enforceable.

 

Anyone else able to have a look and add their views?

 

 

If they have an agreement with your signature on then I would suggest that it is enforceable as the teerms and conditions contain all of the schedule 6 prescribed terms

[nicklea]

jsa,

 

Your letter of yesterday, while no doubt allowing you to vent your anger won't, I believe, achieve very much.

 

By all means send them a s10 DPA notice, but in reality they will ignore it and it will then be up to you to start proceedings against them. I am sure that creditors like this receive lots of idle threats of this nature and it is very rare indeed for people to follow through on them, so the most cost effective route is for them simply to ignore threats of this sort.

[Guest jsa12]

hi,i am not taking them to court as such,that is their choice.i agree what was sent looks enforceable,however the access card gives it away as wrong,i did send the cpr letter but received a letter stating the hold on the account was stopped as they had not heard from me.

 

i have sent the extended dispute letter stating the cca is not the original or the terms and conditions',it will be very difficult to ignore such serious claims if they ever do go to court,the problem with these old agreements people were never given a copy,this in its self is a serious breach of the cca 1974.

 

metropolitan are in a very serious situation here,i remember the original document an application type as it was only my second payed job,i appear to be the only one one here who has picked up on possibly other situations' of this type of behavior,again i reiterate this is very serious,they might try and ignore but the account is in depute even thought they try and portray otherwise.

 

it has to suspected that these false copy documents that they are sending out is an attempt to restart payments',however as we are aware they cannot do this.these are serious breaches of the oft guidelines,the cca 1974,together with other issues i feel justifiably that the case is robust to stand up in court.