Advantis chasing Amex 'debt'

[Dipply75]

Hi Dori, can you scan and post up what they sent you?

 

If its an application form and doesn't have all the prescribed terms then no, it does not fulfill your request and is not enforceable.

 

Did they maybe include their complaints procedure?

[dori2o]

I will post it up asap.

 

They did not include a copy of their complaints proceedure.

 

What I do not understand is this.

 

The T&C's do seem to contain all the prescribed terms, but although they may reflect the T&C's of the agreement as it stands now, these are not the T&C's I would have signed at the time of applying for the card. These are not what would have been on the back of the application they are separate pieces of paper. The are also in clear print and possibly a computer print out of their T&C's, where the Application form is a bad photocopy.

 

Can they simply print out the current T&C's and use these to fulfil their obligations?

[Dipply75]

Nope! The whole point of getting your cca is to see what T&C's you agreed t at the time...I don't see they have aleg to stand on yet.

 

Hmm, no complaints procedure eh?

 

If you aven't already i would get a complaint going with the FOS...they will log it and give you a ref number then write to them and gee them up...they will either go away or start to take your complaint seriously.

 

Complain about EVERYTHING, including the carry on with your agreement, trying to get you into secured debt, not giving you their complaints procedure along wih everything else they have done to you.

[dori2o]

That is what I will do now.

 

But, should I acknowledge the letter I have received to Newmans, they have said that unless I contact them within 7 days to make arrangements for payment they will pass this matter onto their solicitors Copes.

 

Do I let them know that what they have sent does not release them from their obligation as it does not reflect the T&C from the time the application was made?

[citizenB]

I will post it up asap.

 

They did not include a copy of their complaints proceedure.

 

What I do not understand is this.

 

The T&C's do seem to contain all the prescribed terms, but although they may reflect the T&C's of the agreement as it stands now, these are not the T&C's I would have signed at the time of applying for the card. These are not what would have been on the back of the application they are separate pieces of paper. The are also in clear print and possibly a computer print out of their T&C's, where the Application form is a bad photocopy.

 

Can they simply print out the current T&C's and use these to fulfil their obligations?

 

They do need to provide you with a copy of the historic t&cs. They also need to provide, when asked, for a copy of their complaints procedure.

 

If you feel the need to write to the DCA, send something along the lines of.

 

Dear Sirs,

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated (whenever).

 

I asked for details of your complaints procedure which you have failed to include in your correspondence. Please forward a copy of this within the next 7 days.

 

Meanwhile the paperwork you have sent in response to my CCA 1974 request does not fulfil your obligations under the Act as it does not include historic terms and conditions.

 

I look forward to your early reply.

 

Etc,

[dori2o]

Guess what I received today........A letter from COPES solicitors.

 

The claim this is my FINAL NOTICE, and if I do not contact them the will be taking legal proceedings where they 'WILL OBTAIN JUDGEMENT' (they are a confident bunch aren't they)which couldl ead to WoE, AOE, Charging Order or Bailiff.

 

I have sent this

 

[Your Address]

 

 

[senior Partner Name] [solicitor ID - XXXXXX]

[solicitors Address ]

 

 

By Fax no: xxx – xxx - xxx and post

IMPORTANT

[Date]

 

 

Your Reference: xxx xxx xxx

 

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE Re: -

Breaches of Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA 1974)

Data Protection Act 1998

Office Of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidelines (OFT 664)

Consumer Protection Against Unfair Trading Agreements 2008 (CPUTR 200:cool:

 

Dear Sir / Madam

 

I refer to your letter dated [Date]

 

As you are aware from my letter to your client dated __/__ (copied to you by fax on the same date at XX:XX hrs, and subsequently by post) :-

 

 

• Your client has failed to fulfil a request to supply a copy of an executed credit agreement as required by law under sections 77 – 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and which complies with the relevant regulations made pursuant to that Act, in particular the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) (As amended).
  

 

• The alleged agreement supplied is in fact a poor copy of an application form which does not contain any required prescribed terms and as such is not enforceable under section 127 (3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 quote :- “The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).”
  

 

• The above requirements are made explicitly clear by the authority of the House Of Lords and a recent judgement in the Court Of Appeal. I refer you to :-
  

Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul)

1. Wilson and another v. Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299.
   

 

Solicitors Regulatory Authority

 

Should you commence Court Proceedings, your firm may be put to strict proof that an enforceable agreement exists in relation to any claim you are making, any failure by your firm to comply may construe grounds for a report being made to the Solicitors Regulatory Authority for misrepresentation. The matter will also be brought to the Courts attention and this letter referred to.

 

Any legal action you pursue will be averred to as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS and will be VIGOROUSLY defended

 

I am not obliged to make any payments to your client.

 

Finally I require from your client the detailed information listed in my recent Subject Access Request (Subject Access Request). This in non negotiable. The Subject Access Request was delivered to your client on __/__ Your client has 40 calendar days to comply.

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

[Your Name]

 

I eagerly await their next letter.

[dori2o]

Today I got this from Newmans

 

We are writing in response to your unsigned letter dated 24th March 2009.

 

You have stated that we have failed to satisfy your request. If you have retained a copy of your original agreement, you will note that on the reverse of the Agreement are the original terms and conditions applicable to the account. Our copy of the aggreement and the terms and conditions issued to you correspond directly to your agreement.

 

We have previously provided you with a copy of the application form, and from that you will see it is clear that by signing the form you were entering into a credit agreement. The signature box contains the phrase, 2This is a Credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign only if you want to be legally bound by its terms".

 

When entering into a credit agreement with you, Amex were required to send you three copies of the agreement. The first copy (set out as an application form) was sent out in duplicate. One copy would have been signed by you and returned to Amex. The second copy (unexecuted, in that it would not have been signed by Amex) would have been yours to keep. The third copy would be an executed copy of the agreement, as by that stage it would have been signed by you and amex. We do not send out a version that shows both of the signatures, but nevertheless send an executed copy, which is the card acrrier copy sent with your american express card.

 

This executed copy excludes the signatures, but noetheless complies with the "true copies" requirement of the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983. These regulations allow Amex to omit and signature and/or signature box. On the basis that you received and have been using the card, we can only assume that you have been provided with the card carrier and therefore the executed copy of the agreement.

 

You refer to the ac**** being in Dispute. However OFT guidelines state:

 

"By 'disputed' we mean genuinley disputed. We are not seeking to protect 'won't pays' but those who are being pursued for a debt they do not owe or genuinley believe they do not owe. Debt collectors who can show that the debt is due and that any dispute has been looked into and the debt confirmed will not be in breach of this provision"

 

We are in no doubt as to the fact that this debt is genuinley owed by you, and believe that since your account was opened you have been provided with all documents necessary to evidence the debt.We have made every effort to respond fully to your requests where appropriate, and hope that our correspondencehas allayed any concerns you may have in relation to your agreement with us.

 

We do not believe that we can assist you any more than we have already done, and therefore ask that you direct any ongoing grievances in this matter to the Financial Ombudsman Service. We will not enter into any further correspondence with you on these particular issues.

 

Your file has now been passed to our solicitors 'Copes' whom will be contacting you soon.

 

 

So, what do I do now?

 

If I go through the FOS what the chanceof them siding with Amex/Newmans?

 

If I go via the FOS, surelythat puts the account in dispute, so 'Copes' would have to wait for any resolution before they can proceed with their threats?

 

Any advice appreciated

 

(I have the e-mail address of the person who has written to me, is it worth writing to him or is this really their final answer?)

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Dori,

 

You'll get more expert advice, but if I'm reading this correctly they are saying they have a copy of the "agreement" and if you had your copy you could see that the T&Cs they say were on the back were on the back?

 

Well, they could send their one with everything then, couldn't they?

 

I'm absolutely certain I did not get three copies of the agreement - one of which was an application form - to start with. My application form refers to itself as an 'invitation' so why would they be sending three copies at that stage?

 

If I got your letter, I would say I wanted to visit the Amex offices to see my "agreement" - back and front - myself.

 

DD

[citizenB]

Today I got this from Newmans

 

 

 

So, what do I do now?

 

If I go through the FOS what the chanceof them siding with Amex/Newmans?

 

If I go via the FOS, surelythat puts the account in dispute, so 'Copes' would have to wait for any resolution before they can proceed with their threats?

 

Any advice appreciated

 

(I have the e-mail address of the person who has written to me, is it worth writing to him or is this really their final answer?)

 

Your first port of call is Trading Standards/OFT.. NOT the Financial Ombudsman, they do not have a remit to ajudicate on agreements. In fact, the FOS are most likely to send you, after many months of waiting in the queue, to send you an ambiguous letter which effectively sides with the Creditor.

 

You could of course write back to Newmans saying that if you had a copy of the agreement, you wouldnt be pestering them for one and if they have one then why the hell are they refusing to send you a copy ?

[dori2o]

Just looked at the OFT website and they say they cannot adviseon individual cases, and the Leeds TS site refers me to consumer direct. Do I just write to the addresses given on the relevant websites?

 

Who else should I be writing to? Who is in charge of ensuring that DCA's comply with the CCA?

 

Any help/template letters/letter ideas would be very much appreciated.

[citizenB]

Just looked at the OFT website and they say they cannot adviseon individual cases, and the Leeds TS site refers me to consumer direct. Do I just write to the addresses given on the relevant websites?

 

Who else should I be writing to? Who is in charge of ensuring that DCA's comply with the CCA?

 

Any help/template letters/letter ideas would be very much appreciated.

 

 

This is true, the OFT do not get involved in individual cases and their reply will state this. However, they are logging all complaints until such times as they have sufficient cases to do something with them. The letter which you will need to amend for your own circumstances is letter 2 in the link below.

 

The Consumer Forums - Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regs. 2008

 

To make your complaint to Trading Standards, you will first of all contact Consumer Direct either by phone or email. They will then give you a reference number and you will contact your local Trading Standards, perhaps even copying it to the Trading Standards that are local to the company you are complaining about.

 

Long winded I know, good luck.

[dori2o]

I've had a reply from Copes, see if you can spot their mistake

 

First I sent this

 

[Your Address]

 

 

[senior Partner Name] [solicitor ID - XXXXXX]

[solicitors Address ]

 

 

By Fax no: xxx – xxx - xxx and post

IMPORTANT

[Date]

 

 

Your Reference: xxx xxx xxx

 

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE Re: -

Breaches of Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA 1974)

Data Protection Act 1998

Office Of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidelines (OFT 664)

Consumer Protection Against Unfair Trading Agreements 2008 (CPUTR 200:cool:

 

Dear Sir / Madam

 

I refer to your letter dated [Date]

 

As you are aware from my letter to your client dated __/__ (copied to you by fax on the same date at XX:XX hrs, and subsequently by post) :-

 

 

• Your client has failed to fulfil a request to supply a copy of an executed credit agreement as required by law under sections 77 – 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and which complies with the relevant regulations made pursuant to that Act, in particular the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) (As amended).
  

 

• The alleged agreement supplied is in fact a poor copy of an application form which does not contain any required prescribed terms and as such is not enforceable under section 127 (3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 quote :- “The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).”
  

 

• The above requirements are made explicitly clear by the authority of the House Of Lords and a recent judgement in the Court Of Appeal. I refer you to :-
  

Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul)

1. Wilson and another v. Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299.
   

 

Solicitors Regulatory Authority

 

Should you commence Court Proceedings, your firm may be put to strict proof that an enforceable agreement exists in relation to any claim you are making, any failure by your firm to comply may construe grounds for a report being made to the Solicitors Regulatory Authority for misrepresentation. The matter will also be brought to the Courts attention and this letter referred to.

 

Any legal action you pursue will be averred to as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS and will be VIGOROUSLY defended

 

I am not obliged to make any payments to your client.

 

Finally I require from your client the detailed information listed in my recent Subject Access Request (Subject Access Request). This in non negotiable. The Subject Access Request was delivered to your client on __/__ Your client has 40 calendar days to comply.

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

[Your Name]

 

And today I got this

 

Dear Mr S Dori2o

 

Arrow Global LLC v P Dori2o

Claim Number - 7XY*****

 

We write further to your templated letter dated 5th April, the content of the letter has been noted.

 

We refer to paragraph one, where it is stated a request for documentation was sent to us on 12 March 2009, this has not been received, and subsequently to state in paragraph two 'the alleged agreement supplied is in fact a poor copy' when no such agreement has even been provided is disingenuous.

 

May we remind you on 21st November 2007 we obtained a County Court Judgement against you,no defence was filed at that stage stating you wish to dispute our clients claim, in fact quite the contrary occured, you completed the Admission form and offered £20.00 per month to repay your outstanding debt to our client and stated on the claim form you admitted to the amount owed and signed.

 

Our client agreed you could discharge the debt by the monthly installments; your first payment was due on 20th December 2007. Your account is currently up to date.

 

Therefore, should your intention be to apply to the court to have judgement set aside, please note that any application will be opposed. Please observe that to date we have received £300.00 in installments from you. This factor will be drawn to the courts attention.

 

Finally, we are not obliged provide you with your request under the Consumer Credit Act since legal action was taken before you requested such documentation.

 

Shouldyour intention be to cease further payments towards this account please note our client will take immediate enforcement action against you without further notice which will be neither unlawful nor vexatious but justified.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Copes

 

Have you spotted their ever so slight mistake?

 

I'll leave you to review it then come back and see if anyone has got it.

[dori2o]

ok, do you give up

 

Here's the answer.

 

Dear Mr S Dori2o Thats me

 

Arrow Global LLC v P Dori2o Thats not me, who are Arrow global

Claim Number - 7XY*****

 

We write further to your templated letter dated 5th April, the content of the letter has been noted.

 

We refer to paragraph one, where it is stated a request for documentation was sent to us on 12 March 2009, this has not been received, and subsequently to state in paragraph two 'the alleged agreement supplied is in fact a poor copy' when no such agreement has even been provided is disingenuous.

 

If they had read the letter right it clearly says I have sent their client a CCA request

 

May we remind you on 21st November 2007 we obtained a County Court Judgement against you,no defence was filed at that stage stating you wish to dispute our clients claim, in fact quite the contrary occured, you completed the Admission form and offered £20.00 per month to repay your outstanding debt to our client and stated on the claim form you admitted to the amount owed and signed.

 

Not me, I have no CCJ's. They must mean Mr P Dori2o.

 

Our client agreed you could discharge the debt by the monthly installments; your first payment was due on 20th December 2007. Your account is currently up to date.

 

Again not me

 

Therefore, should your intention be to apply to the court to have judgement set aside, please note that any application will be opposed. Please observe that to date we have received £300.00 in installments from you. This factor will be drawn to the courts attention.

 

Finally, we are not obliged provide you with your request under the Consumer Credit Act since legal action was taken before you requested such documentation.

 

As you have not started any legal proceedings then your client does have an obligation

 

Shouldyour intention be to cease further payments towards this account please note our client will take immediate enforcement action against you without further notice which will be neither unlawful nor vexatious but justified.

 

Again, complete tosh because your talking about the wrong person.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Copes

 

Does anyone have any idea how I can reply to this? Many Thanks.

[dori2o]

how about this letter

 

Thank you for your letter dated 16 April 2009, I must admit I diod have difficulty at first understanding the letter, until I noticed the catastrophic mistake that your company has made. I must admit I was rather shocked to see such a mistake made by a company such as yours.

 

Lets go through your letter.

 

We write further to your template letter dated 5th April, the content of the letter has been noted.

 

Whether the letter is a template or not is none of your concern, I am sure there are many template letters on your systems that are sent out to people every day.

 

We refer to paragraph one, where it is stated a request for documentation was sent to us on 12 March 2009, this has not been received, and subsequently to state in paragraph two 'the alleged agreement supplied is in fact a poor copy' when no such agreement has even been provided is disingenuous.

May I suggest that you re read my letter. I think you will find that I actually sent the letter in question to your client, who responded with a copy of the application form, but included no terms and conditions relation to the agreement. I am sure you are aware that without these terms and conditions, which must contain the required prescribed terms as set out by the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553). For an agreement to be compliant with the regulations it MUST embody within the agreement, the prescribed terms laid out in the SI1983/1553 without the prescribed terms the agreement does not conform to section 60(1) CCA 1974 and therefore cannot be properly executed as described in section 61(1) CCA 1974.

 

May we remind you on 21st November 2007 we obtained a County Court Judgement against you, no defence was filed at that stage stating you wish to dispute our clients claim, in fact quite the contrary occurred, you completed the Admission form and offered £20.00 per month to repay your outstanding debt to our client and stated on the claim form you admitted to the amount owed and signed.

I became extremely confused at this section of the letter as you have never obtained a CCJ against me. It was at this point that I noticed the heading at the top of your letter.

 

Arrow Global LLC v Phillip Dori2o

Claim Number – 7XT*****

I am please to inform you that I am not Mr Phillip Dori2o, however I am sure that Mr Dori2o will not be happy to hear that you have been sharing the details about his CCJ’s with other Dori2o’s around the country, neither do I expect the Information Commissioner or Trading Standards to be impressed by this fact. (A copy of your letter has been forwarded to both the above mentioned bodies.)

 

I think that is enough to prove that you have made an extremely embarrassing mistake in your letter.

 

Now back to business. This account is in dispute. Your client has failed to fulfil their obligation by not responding completely to my request for a copy of the executed credit agreement as per s.78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which complies with the relevant regulations made pursuant to that Act, in particular the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553).

 

The alleged agreement supplied is in fact a poor copy of an application form which does not contain any required prescribed terms and as such is not enforceable under section 127 (3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 quote :- “The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).”

The above requirements are made explicitly clear by the authority of the House Of Lords and a recent judgement in the Court Of Appeal. I refer you to :-Lords and a recent judgement in the Court Of Appeal. I refer you to :-

Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul)

 

1. Wilson and another v. Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299.
   

I again remind you that should you commence Court Proceedings, your firm may be put to strict proof that an enforceable agreement exists in relation to any claim you are making, any failure by your firm to comply may construe grounds for a report being made to the Solicitors Regulatory Authority for misrepresentation. The matter will also be brought to the Courts attention and this letter referred to.

 

Any legal action you pursue will be averred to as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS and will be VIGOROUSLY defended

 

I am not obliged to make any payments to your client.

 

Yours sincerely

 

[fiftypence]

ok, do you give up

 

Here's the answer.

 

 

 

Does anyone have any idea how I can reply to this? Many Thanks.

 

I like their opening line 'your templated letter' hee hee, trying to belittle your efforts and yet their response is so woefully inadequate/incorrect it is shameful.

 

Your response looks pretty good, how about mentioning dropping them in it with the Law Society (SRA?) too.

 

What a bunch of incompetents they are, care to name and shame just so we can all have a good laugh at their expense?

[dori2o]

I like their opening line 'your templated letter' hee hee, trying to belittle your efforts and yet their response is so woefully inadequate/incorrect it is shameful.

 

Your response looks pretty good, how about mentioning dropping them in it with the Law Society (SRA?) too.

 

What a bunch of incompetents they are, care to name and shame just so we can all have a good laugh at their expense?

 

Unfortunately it is just signed on behalf of Copes, nobody's actual name.

[fiftypence]

Unfortunately it is just signed on behalf of Copes, nobody's actual name.

 

Well at least you have named Copes and at least if anyone else gets a letter from them they will know what they are up against - not a lot! hee hee! For a firm of Solicitors (if they really are solicitors) that letter was a disgrace to their profession, they should be struck off for it alone.

[Desperate Daniella]

Outrageous. Go for them! For ******s like this to refer to template letters is just a joke.

 

Do contact the Law Society too.

 

DD

[pt2537]

you need to report them to the SRA ( solicitor Regulation Authority) this is clearly misconduct and designed to mislead you into believing that they have a CCJ against you

 

Report their backsides

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Dori2o!

 

Just a minor tweak to your proposed letter in Red with any explanations needed shown in Blue to cover why I've made the change:

 

Thank you for your letter dated 16 April 2009, I must admit I did have difficulty at first understanding the letter, until I noticed the catastrophic mistake that your company has made. I must admit I was rather shocked to see such a mistake made by a company such as yours.

 

Let's go through your letter.

 

[ We write further to your template letter dated 5th April, the content of the letter has been noted.

 

Whether the letter is a template or not is none of your concern, I am sure there are many template letters on your systems that are sent out to people every day. ]

 

...maybe leave this bit out, as it's just a bun fight over the word template. Maybe it would be better not to rise to their snotty mention of the word template, and instead keep your letter short and sharp and hit them between the eyes regarding their main errors and omissions?

 

We refer to paragraph one, where it is stated a request for documentation was sent to us on 12 March 2009, this has not been received, and subsequently to state in paragraph two 'the alleged agreement supplied is in fact a poor copy' when no such agreement has even been provided is disingenuous.

 

May I suggest that you re-read my letter. I think you will find that I actually sent the letter in question to your client, who responded with a copy of the application form, but included no terms and conditions in relation to the agreement. I am sure you are aware that for a signed agreement to be properly executed, it must contain within the four corners of the agreement, the prescribed terms laid out in the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553). Without the prescribed terms the agreement does not conform to section 60(1) CCA 1974 and therefore cannot be properly executed as described in section 61(1)(a) CCA 1974.

 

[The word contain is key, as that ties in with s61(1)(a) which uses this word in relation to the Prescribed Terms. By comparison, s61(1)(b) uses the word embody, i.e. in relation to general terms which can be found within another document and embodied into the Agreement. The Prescribed Terms cannot be embodied into the Agreement from somewhere else, they must be contained within it!]

 

May we remind you on 21st November 2007 we obtained a County Court Judgement against you, no defence was filed at that stage stating you wish to dispute our clients claim, in fact quite the contrary occurred, you completed the Admission form and offered £20.00 per month to repay your outstanding debt to our client and stated on the claim form you admitted to the amount owed and signed.

 

I became extremely confused at this section of the letter as you have never obtained a CCJ against me. It was at this point that I noticed the heading at the top of your letter.

 

Arrow Global LLC v Phillip Dori2o

Claim Number – 7XT*****

 

I am pleased to inform you that I am not Mr Phillip Dori2o, however I am sure that Mr Dori2o will not be happy to hear that you have been sharing the details about his CCJ’s with other Dori2o’s around the country, neither do I expect the Information Commissioner or Trading Standards to be impressed by this fact (a copy of your letter has been forwarded to both the above mentioned bodies).

 

I think that is enough to prove that you have made an extremely embarrassing mistake in your letter.

 

Now, back to business. This account is in dispute. Your client has failed to fulfil their obligation by not responding completely to my request for a copy of the properly executed credit agreement as per s.78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which complies with the relevant regulations made pursuant to that Act, in particular the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553).

 

The alleged agreement supplied is in fact a poor copy of an application form which does not contain any required prescribed terms and as such is not enforceable under section 127(3) of The Consumer Credit Act 1974:

 

“The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).”

 

The above requirements are made explicitly clear by the authority of the House Of Lords and a recent judgement in the Court Of Appeal. I refer you to:

 

Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul).

Wilson and another v. Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299.

 

I again remind you that should you commence Court Proceedings, your firm may be put to strict proof that an enforceable agreement exists in relation to any claim you are making, any failure by your firm to comply may construe grounds for a report being made to the Solicitors Regulatory Authority for misrepresentation. The matter will also be brought to the Court's attention and this letter referred to.

 

Any legal action you pursue will be averred to as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS and will be VIGOROUSLY defended

 

I am not obliged to make any payments to your client.

 

Yours sincerely

Below is the letter again, with the bits taken out and the Red and Blue areas turned to black or deleted, as needed:

 

Thank you for your letter dated 16 April 2009, I must admit I did have difficulty at first understanding the letter, until I noticed the catastrophic mistake that your company has made. I must admit I was rather shocked to see such a mistake made by a company such as yours.

 

Let's go through your letter.

 

We refer to paragraph one, where it is stated a request for documentation was sent to us on 12 March 2009, this has not been received, and subsequently to state in paragraph two 'the alleged agreement supplied is in fact a poor copy' when no such agreement has even been provided is disingenuous.

 

May I suggest that you re-read my letter. I think you will find that I actually sent the letter in question to your client, who responded with a copy of the application form, but included no terms and conditions in relation to the agreement. I am sure you are aware that for a signed agreement to be properly executed, it must contain within the four corners of the agreement, the prescribed terms laid out in the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553). Without the prescribed terms the agreement does not conform to section 60(1) CCA 1974 and therefore cannot be properly executed as described in section 61(1)(a) CCA 1974.

 

May we remind you on 21st November 2007 we obtained a County Court Judgement against you, no defence was filed at that stage stating you wish to dispute our clients claim, in fact quite the contrary occurred, you completed the Admission form and offered £20.00 per month to repay your outstanding debt to our client and stated on the claim form you admitted to the amount owed and signed.

 

I became extremely confused at this section of the letter as you have never obtained a CCJ against me. It was at this point that I noticed the heading at the top of your letter.

 

Arrow Global LLC v Phillip Dori2o

Claim Number – 7XT*****

 

I am pleased to inform you that I am not Mr Phillip Dori2o, however I am sure that Mr Dori2o will not be happy to hear that you have been sharing the details about his CCJ’s with other Dori2o’s around the country, neither do I expect the Information Commissioner or Trading Standards to be impressed by this fact (a copy of your letter has been forwarded to both the above mentioned bodies).

 

I think that is enough to prove that you have made an extremely embarrassing mistake in your letter.

 

Now, back to business. This account is in dispute. Your client has failed to fulfil their obligation by not responding completely to my request for a copy of the properly executed credit agreement as per s.78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which complies with the relevant regulations made pursuant to that Act, in particular the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553).

 

The alleged agreement supplied is in fact a poor copy of an application form which does not contain any required prescribed terms and as such is not enforceable under section 127(3) of The Consumer Credit Act 1974:

 

“The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).”

 

The above requirements are made explicitly clear by the authority of the House Of Lords and a recent judgement in the Court Of Appeal. I refer you to:

 

Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) .

Wilson and another v. Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299.

 

I again remind you that should you commence Court Proceedings, your firm may be put to strict proof that an enforceable agreement exists in relation to any claim you are making, any failure by your firm to comply may construe grounds for a report being made to the Solicitors Regulatory Authority for misrepresentation. The matter will also be brought to the Court 's attention and this letter referred to.

 

Any legal action you pursue will be averred to as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS and will be VIGOROUSLY defended

 

I am not obliged to make any payments to your client.

 

Yours sincerely

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited April 18, 2009 by banker_rhymes_with
Strange formatting correction.

[Dipply75]

Just popping Dori and , report, complaint, kick up allmighty hell to the entire world!

 

Embarrassing, unprofessional and pathetic, enjoy giving them a kicking

[welshwizard]

Just a theory, if a letter from a solicitor's firm (usually partnership or LLP) is signed 'For AN Other Solicitors' or such like, wouldn't all the partners be equally liable for any 'mistake' error or omission etc? Therefore, wouldn't they all be liable to action by the SRA both as a partnership and individually?

 

Maybe I shoudl just go to bed though...........

[intree]

I have not received a default notice but have been terminated - so where would I stand with this if the claim with Amex I have went to court?

 

Thanks

[postggj]

Simple Answer

 

Poor Poor Amex

 

They Have No Claim

 

Only Let Them Know About The Default Notice If A Court Claim Has Begun

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Intree!

 

But do send them a SAR if you have not already done so, and see what comes back from that.

 

If no Default Notice in there, then that is another tick in the box.

 

Cheers,

BRW