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Claiming back bank charges – The PPI approach

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PPI seems to be one issue where consumer do get their fair share :becky::becky: and have significant successes against the greed :mad2::mad2: of the banks and credit card companies.

 

Getting a positive result when claiming the mis-selling of PPI is only part of the story. One has to ensure that the involved Financial Institution do a proper redress of the credit card or loan account when refunding the customer. It seems that many of them set up fix protocols what should be refunded and how to do it. Many of these fall well short of the recommendations of the FOS how such a redress should take place:

 

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/ppi/redress.html

 

This is clear guidelines and they do state that every case is different and the way in which the redress should be done would be different from case to case but the principles stay the same:

 

  1. 1. Putting the consumer back into the position they would have been in but for the failure on the part of the financial business.
  2. Redressing on the basis that the consumer would not have purchased the policy and should be compensated if they have been out-of-pocket in the meantime.
  3. The reconstruction of the account, to work out what the current balance would have been if the consumer had made the same monthly payments but without PPI. This should be calculated by deducting the PPI premiums and the interest and charges that resulted from those premiums (including those arising because the ongoing monthly balance on the account was higher than it would have been, if the consumer had made the same payments to an account without PPI).

 

This is the approach of the FOS and the examples they provided is for loans and PPI on credit card accounts but they do stress that it is only examples and that the principals stays the same.

 

Let us now consider a common situation:

 

  1. You have a current account with Greedy Bank :mad2:
  2. You also took out a loan with Greedy Bank :mad2:
  3. This loan is served by payments from the current account
  4. PPI was sold by Greedy Bank :mad2: with the loan
  5. The PPI was mis-sold and you received a confirmation either from Greedy Bank :mad2: or the FOS

 

I can see no reason for why the current account should not be redressed when they refund the PPI. This means:

 

  1. Refunding all debit interest which would have been lower than those charged but for the failure on the part of the financial business.
  2. Refunding all credit interest which would have been higher than those charged but for the failure on the part of the financial business.
  3. Refunding of all charges but for the failure on the part of the financial business.
  4. Interest on these charges.
  5. Correcting all Credit Reference Agencies entries to reflect the status of the account but for the failure on the part of the financial business.
  6. A statement showing the resulting balance on the account – to be sent to the customer along with details of how it was calculated.

 

You should do a redress calculation yourself to ensure it is properly done and you will need all your statements. This could be an extensive task but the returns could be potentially huge!! For every month you will have to add all the monthly premiums to your balance and calculate the relevant debit and credit interest differences and add that. Should the balance be below the limit and over limit charges added, then this charge should be added from your balance. Should there have been enough funds to service a returned DD/SO/Cheque, then this charge should be added as well and the debit and credit interest differences added. The premiums, charges and various interests should be cumulative and that will let the balance grow exponentially with a huge amount of credit interest. In most cases this will eliminate all but the earliest charges.

 

Off course the banks will through all sorts of arguments!! An example is that you could serve the loan from another account. In my case they asked whether my salary are paid into my current account when applying for the loan and it seems that it would have been difficult to obtain the loan should I not paid it from the current account. Anyway I had no other option than to pay it from that particular current account. There could be other arguments but I believe they can be defeated.

 

I had some successes on credit cards getting back the charges and I referred others to the FOS, after they refunded the premiums and some interest but failed to do a proper redress. I posted this on the relevant thread and stated the fact that a redress should include the charges and landy_alert raised this point, therefore I should thank her for that because that let me start to think that this should be a valid option. I have a loan PPI claim with the FOS now and will add this to “test drive” this argument and will post any updates on that.


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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Hi L_T_P,

 

Many thanks for starting this thread! As you know I am trying to attempt something similar but as it is in the early stages at present I haven't posted about it on the forum where the bank's spies might be lurking!

 

Coincidentally I too have used a spreadsheet to determine the alternative world that would have existed had the PPI not been mis-sold to me. As I'm not too good with devising spreadsheets myself a good friend has done this for me. I've only had a quick glance at yours, but on the face of it the two look very similar.

 

I firmly believe that the wording of the FOS fact sheet clearly opens the door to reclaiming charges caused by the application of PPI. I have seen one or two other people here and elsewhere discuss similar situations, but on the whole the opinion from other more experienced members is that the proof that the charges were caused specifically by the PPI is hard to substantiate.

 

However I was advised that having utilised such wording, the FOS cannot have meant anything other than what we are assuming.

 

Regarding your point about the current account being used to service the loan (and therefore PPI) repayments - the T&Cs of my loan clearly state that if a current account is held with that same bank, that account must be used to repay the loan..........not sure if yours says the same?

 

My complaint is currently with the FOS, which of course is a waiting game that can stretch to many months...........I will let you know how I progress with it and hope you continue to have success also.

 

Good Luck and keep us posted!

 

Landy x

 

P.S. Thanks for your thanks xxx


LTSB PPI on various loans (current/settled) - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 1 Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

MBNA 1 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Charges - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 2 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Accident Ins - Refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage Charges -Partially refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage PPI - Refunded inc CI & 8%

 

Sainsburys (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI +8%

 

Sainsburys (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

M&S Money (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

M&S Money (closed) Card PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Direct Line (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

Debenhams Card (closed) PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Swift Mortgage Charges -Refunded

 

Hitachi Finance (closed) Charges - Refunded

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the opinion from other more experienced members is that the proof that the charges were caused specifically by the PPI is hard to substantiate.

 

 

To me it is extremely easy to substantiate! Especially if you use the view point by the FOS:

 

You should re-calculate your balance as if you made the same payments but the PPI premiums never left the account

 

If the premiums were never applied and never incurred interest, remove those 2 amounts from the balance and should this balance be lower than the limit, you would not have incurred a charge, if there is a charge, then the PPI is to blame!!

 

 

Received a letter from Halifax (Aqua card) today and they folded!!

I never applied for PPI and they refunded the premiums and a small amount of interest. I was going on about the charges for ages and they utterly refused.

 

After applying the pressure on them relentlessly after the refunding of the PPI, they caved in and refunded all over limit charges, together with the correct amount of the various interests! What is still outstanding is the correct amount of PPI interest to be refunded and the charges interests also proof the PPI interests are wrong.

 

This is a credit card but I cannot see that one cannot get the same result with these current accounts!!


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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Hi L_T_P,

 

Thanks - yes I agree it should be easy to prove..............our spreadsheets clearly show that were it not for the PPI, many of the charges would not have arisen. In my own case getting the bank to see this is another matter unfortunately :-x

 

The FOS are hopefully now investigating this thoroughly for me - I had an email last week saying their investigations were continuing, so fingers crossed!

 

Landy x


LTSB PPI on various loans (current/settled) - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 1 Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

MBNA 1 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Charges - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 2 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Accident Ins - Refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage Charges -Partially refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage PPI - Refunded inc CI & 8%

 

Sainsburys (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI +8%

 

Sainsburys (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

M&S Money (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

M&S Money (closed) Card PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Direct Line (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

Debenhams Card (closed) PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Swift Mortgage Charges -Refunded

 

Hitachi Finance (closed) Charges - Refunded

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Regarding your point about the current account being used to service the loan (and therefore PPI) repayments - the T&Cs of my loan clearly state that if a current account is held with that same bank, that account must be used to repay the loan..........not sure if yours says the same?

That is all you need!! I will have a look at mine, hopefully they add the same thing!

 

Hi L_T_P,

 

Thanks - yes I agree it should be easy to prove..............our spreadsheets clearly show that were it not for the PPI, many of the charges would not have arisen. In my own case getting the bank to see this is another matter unfortunately :-x

 

The FOS are hopefully now investigating this thoroughly for me - I had an email last week saying their investigations were continuing, so fingers crossed!

 

Landy x

 

I am putting some significant thought into this and at this stage I am sure that a current account redress similar to that of a credit card should be done. The following statement by the FOS is also important to me:

 

"Typically, that will mean assessing redress on the basis that the consumer would not have purchased the policy, if the financial business had given a fair recommendation and/or had given appropriate information during the sale – and should be compensated if they have been out-of-pocket in the meantime. "

 

Especially the out-of-pocket part.

 

I think one must ask for a current account redress and NOT the refund of the PPI premiums. Such a redress should be done as follow:

 

  1. Add the cumulative monthly PPI premiums to the monthly balance of the current account to get the NEW balance.
  2. Add the Debit Interest of the difference between the Statement and NEW Balance to the account to get the REAL balance.
  3. Add the cumulative over limit charges, returned DD/SO/Cheques which have not resulted should the bank used the REAL balance.
  4. Should the REAL balance be in credit but the Statement balance was in Debit, add the Debit interest and 8% single interest on the credit balance to the account (this credit balance is for the out-of-pocket money).
  5. If the Statement balance was in credit but the REAL balance has a higher credit balance, add 8% on this difference (again the difference is the out-of-pocket money).

 

The credit interest on my current account was 2% per annum for the first £1000 and nothing for the amount above. I am convinced that you can add the 8% interest for the out-of-pocket money and this could become be a significant amount!

 

Off course the banks will not see it that way but as long as the FOS see it that way, then it is fine!! I usually do send my redress calculations to the FOS together with my complaint.


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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Have sent some of our PPi clams off already, but will bea this in mind for settlements. Some claims I am just starting with though and definately will raise the charges as well as the PPI.

Had a go with LTP's spread sheet and apart from the very first set of charges early on (my fault a missed payment), all the later charges are on a balance that should have been below the limit but for the ppi, not gone through all the figures yet, but reckon with the ppi and interest, plus the charges and interest the balance would have been zero at the time they defaulted the card and sold it on, so they can wipe the default as well.

 

So thanks LTP great angle will post on my own threads as to events and try to pop back here if sucessful.

 

Ali x


Btw I am no expert just give notes based on what I have read on here and other forums/sites, plus my own experiences and investigations.

 

All ccj's now dropped off file, 2 yrs to go to clear file.

All old debts either settled or made unenforcable.

 

RBS MPP-Full offer at 8 wks from first complaint

RBS Overdraft loanguard-full offer at 8 wks from complaint

Citicard ppi-with FOS finally paid 8 months after offer through FOS!

Capital one x2- with FOS

Monument ppi-with FOS

aqua x2 ppi-partialled settled still pushing for the rest

Black horse ppi-offers made and accepted except for one early loan they say no info held-still pushing for payment

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Have sent some of our PPi clams off already, but will bea this in mind for settlements. Some claims I am just starting with though and definately will raise the charges as well as the PPI.

Had a go with LTP's spread sheet and apart from the very first set of charges early on (my fault a missed payment), all the later charges are on a balance that should have been below the limit but for the ppi, not gone through all the figures yet, but reckon with the ppi and interest, plus the charges and interest the balance would have been zero at the time they defaulted the card and sold it on, so they can wipe the default as well.

 

So thanks LTP great angle will post on my own threads as to events and try to pop back here if sucessful.

 

Ali x

 

Hi Ali :-)

 

Wishing you every success with this............my own complaint is now awaiting review by an ombudsman - my FOS adjudicator told me he was going to uphold and recommend the charges be refunded, but later changed his mind and rejected it, so onwards and upwards!

 

The more people that start to complain about these charges - especially where the spreadsheets clearly show that but for the PPI the charges wouldn't have occurred - the more that hopefully the FOS will realise that these should be refunded as part of the redress process.............

 

Landy x


LTSB PPI on various loans (current/settled) - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 1 Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

MBNA 1 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Charges - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 2 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Accident Ins - Refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage Charges -Partially refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage PPI - Refunded inc CI & 8%

 

Sainsburys (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI +8%

 

Sainsburys (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

M&S Money (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

M&S Money (closed) Card PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Direct Line (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

Debenhams Card (closed) PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Swift Mortgage Charges -Refunded

 

Hitachi Finance (closed) Charges - Refunded

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Have sent some of our PPi clams off already, but will bea this in mind for settlements. Some claims I am just starting with though and definately will raise the charges as well as the PPI.

Had a go with LTP's spread sheet and apart from the very first set of charges early on (my fault a missed payment), all the later charges are on a balance that should have been below the limit but for the ppi, not gone through all the figures yet, but reckon with the ppi and interest, plus the charges and interest the balance would have been zero at the time they defaulted the card and sold it on, so they can wipe the default as well.

 

So thanks LTP great angle will post on my own threads as to events and try to pop back here if sucessful.

 

Ali x

 

HSBC came back with offers for the PPI and frankly they were good, they offer higher than what I was asking for. I told the adjudicator that I want them to refund the charges and remove the defaults. Told me she will contact HSBC but no answer yet, will be interesting!!


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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HSBC came back with offers for the PPI and frankly they were good, they offer higher than what I was asking for. I told the adjudicator that I want them to refund the charges and remove the defaults. Told me she will contact HSBC but no answer yet, will be interesting!!

 

Hi LTP :-)

 

Look forward to hearing what they say..........hope it's good news for you!

 

Landy x


LTSB PPI on various loans (current/settled) - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 1 Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

MBNA 1 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Charges - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 2 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Accident Ins - Refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage Charges -Partially refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage PPI - Refunded inc CI & 8%

 

Sainsburys (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI +8%

 

Sainsburys (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

M&S Money (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

M&S Money (closed) Card PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Direct Line (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

Debenhams Card (closed) PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Swift Mortgage Charges -Refunded

 

Hitachi Finance (closed) Charges - Refunded

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the balance would have been zero at the time they defaulted the card and sold it on, so they can wipe the default as well.

 

Depends how strong your case is but if the balance was zero at date of default then you can also ask for damages as a result of this illegal default. You will have to quantify it though, higher interest paid on mortgage or mortgage application would be denied and have to pay rent, etc.

 

A bit of caution here ....

 

These companies come back with offers of "good will", if you accept that then they claim no responsibility and some nasty ones (like CrapOne) can refuse to remove the default (even if it is purely their fault and that the default is illegal) and you can also not claim damages. In these cases you will need to refuse their "extremely good will" (what a joke) and refer it to an adjudicator to decide. This can be tricky because they can easily find in the CC favour. Whether you want to refer it will depend on the strength of the case.

 

RBS came back to me with their "good will offer" and they said that they will redress the account according to the FOS guidelines. I told them in no uncertain terms what they can do with themselves seeing that I did not apply for the PPI!! Therefore there is no change for them that they can win (if the FOS decide it was fine then I am sure a judge won't) and that they should accept responsibility and also make an offer for all the instances of fraud committed by them (I did not apply and therefore they took these premiums without my approval and that is fraud!), say equal to the outstanding amount? They should also remove the default and then pay me the rent that I was paying for the time the default was on my credit file because I will not get a mortgage with their illegal default. The adjudicator actually agreed with me but stated that she have to do her own investigation first, which is off course correct. This will also be extremely interesting to see what is going to happen!

 

I also put the CRA's on notice regarding this and told them to remove the default, which they won't do off course!! As soon as I have a successful outcome then each one of them will receive a "Demand for Payment" letter as well!


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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Hmm so if the make an offer based on a gesture of goodwill prior to FOS, it would be worth writing back and asking for the charges and the default removal before accepting any payment. Or for claims not started yet to actualy include any outstanding charges and default issues right from the start.

 

Ali x


Btw I am no expert just give notes based on what I have read on here and other forums/sites, plus my own experiences and investigations.

 

All ccj's now dropped off file, 2 yrs to go to clear file.

All old debts either settled or made unenforcable.

 

RBS MPP-Full offer at 8 wks from first complaint

RBS Overdraft loanguard-full offer at 8 wks from complaint

Citicard ppi-with FOS finally paid 8 months after offer through FOS!

Capital one x2- with FOS

Monument ppi-with FOS

aqua x2 ppi-partialled settled still pushing for the rest

Black horse ppi-offers made and accepted except for one early loan they say no info held-still pushing for payment

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Hmm so if the make an offer based on a gesture of goodwill prior to FOS, it would be worth writing back and asking for the charges and the default removal before accepting any payment. Or for claims not started yet to actualy include any outstanding charges and default issues right from the start.

 

Ali x

 

Definitely, but what the response will be will vary. Some will do it, others will refund the charges but refuse to remove the default (CrapOne an example) and some will just be stubborn idiots (like RBS) and refuse both. Therefore if you get success then your battle will be over much sooner and easier. You can even alter your request and ask for the charges + interest and default removal even if you have already referred it to the FOS.

 

While writing it is worthwhile pointing out to them that the FOS will reward the charges, interest and default removal should they upheld it. Off course, they know it but they hope you don't!! If you point it out then they know that you know and that you will accept no less.

 

Why CC's like CrapOne refuse to remove the default is a bit difficult for me to understand. The adjudicator said that he believes that should they remove the default then they will basically accept responsibility. Why not do that as another "Goodwill Offer" because the risk of not removing it is much higher. If they pay back all the premiums, interest, charges and charges interest and remove the default, certainly most people will accept that and call it a day? Risking losing all that going through a lengthy process to claim damages is risky!


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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What is the basic quality an adjudicator has? Primary Scholl and anything higher, doesn't seems to the case to me!! I had a very, very good decision for a non-PPI claim but 2 brain dead idiotic PPI decisions. The lates is the HSBC charges one. Well at least she accepted the fact that they should refund any charges on the current account that is a result of the PPI premiums but she decided none of my charges is a result the PPI premiums!! The bank only provided statements back to 2005 (say they do not have the rest but I do not buy it! They send the rest to me last year dating back a looong time, so I will send it to her. Why didn't she asked me for the satements???). Then she stated a couple of examples, I was &68 over my limit but the PPI premiums was &48, therefore I am not over my limit as a result of the PPI premiums!!! What about the premiums of the month before, the one before, the ones of the year before and the year before and the year before and..... as well as the interest, charges, interest on charges, interset on interst, etc.?? She doen't seem to understand the concept of CUMMULATIVE, high school stuff! Well I am going to give her a mouth full but I am a bit stuck here.

 

Actually the whole case is a bit hayward, HSBC made some very good offers on the PPI, all of them with substantial interest. She only adjudicate on the charges, therefore the offer of the PPI still stands and it seems if it go off to the ombudsman then then it will only be about the charges. I thought they should adjudicate on the issue as a whole? I like the way in which they do this although I believe they do it wrong based on my experience with the credit cards. I will be trying to get the PPI refunded while the charges drag on but I am not sure whether I will be able to pull that off. I am also extremely weary to explain to her what is what because it will be an utter waste of time based on another case.

 

This one is regarding CrapOne. During the time that I took out the card CrapOne had some significant failings in their procedures and was fined by the FSA. The first point and one that the FSA considered to be the most serious was that CrapOne send out only a summary and not the policy document. The FSA made it very clear in their fine that a company must produce the whole policy document PRIOR to the sale. (This document is actually a very good basis for anyone that want to take a bank/CC to court regarding mis-sold PPI). Waht did the adjudicator say, the summary is sufficient and that CrapOne di not mis-sold the policy? Send it back to her with the FSA document stating clearly that the CC must produce the whole policy document prior to the sale. Came back that although they say it she thinks I had sufficient info prior to the sale. I asked for the full policy document and find a number of issues in the policy document (which are not in the summary) that could have influence my decision whether to take it out. I point them all out to her. Wasted a couple of weeks and come back that I could have cancelled the policy within 30 days aand that it left me sufficient time to study the policy document AFTER the sale!!! It seems no matter which facts and statements I put in fron of her, she kept on telling that they look at cases individually and accept that the FSA fine CrapOne for producing only the summary, but she believe I had sufficient info before the sale (the summary)!!

 

Needless to say, I have lost all confidence in the PPI adjudicators, they are either incompetent or on the take! I have 2 other cases left, they are not mis-sold cases, they are no-sold cases. I did not ticked the box for applying for the PPI, therefore they issued the PPI wiyhout me applying for it. I am just waiting for the PPI adjudicators to find the policies was not mis-sold and the CC's was squeky clean!!


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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Well at least she accepted the fact that they should refund any charges on the current account that is a result of the PPI premiums but she decided none of my charges is a result the PPI premiums!!

 

 

Needless to say, I have lost all confidence in the PPI adjudicators, they are either incompetent or on the take!

 

Hi LTP,

 

I have to say that my adjudicator did exactly the same - said he would refund charges that were caused by the PPI (and even that he was going to uphold my complaint!!!), then backtracked and decided that there was nothing to prove that the charges were caused by the PPI. I even have a copy (which the adjudicator sent me) of a letter from him to the bank saying he was upholding it - next thing he changes his mind............definitely something fishy going on as far as I can see :x

 

I'm waiting for an ombudsman to look at mine now, but was told this could take a year or more :sad:

 

Good Luck getting to the bottom of this and hope you are successful in the end!

 

Landy x


LTSB PPI on various loans (current/settled) - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 1 Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

MBNA 1 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Charges - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 2 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Accident Ins - Refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage Charges -Partially refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage PPI - Refunded inc CI & 8%

 

Sainsburys (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI +8%

 

Sainsburys (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

M&S Money (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

M&S Money (closed) Card PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Direct Line (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

Debenhams Card (closed) PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Swift Mortgage Charges -Refunded

 

Hitachi Finance (closed) Charges - Refunded

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Hi LTP,

 

I have to say that my adjudicator did exactly the same - said he would refund charges that were caused by the PPI (and even that he was going to uphold my complaint!!!), then backtracked and decided that there was nothing to prove that the charges were caused by the PPI. I even have a copy (which the adjudicator sent me) of a letter from him to the bank saying he was upholding it - next thing he changes his mind............definitely something fishy going on as far as I can see :x

 

I'm waiting for an ombudsman to look at mine now, but was told this could take a year or more :sad:

 

Good Luck getting to the bottom of this and hope you are successful in the end!

 

Landy x

 

I hope that some of you will visit me should they lock me up because I speak my mind!! I told the adjudicator that I do not believe they are un-biased. She said they ARE neutral and me replying then the only alterantive is that they are completely incompetent!!

 

Well, it is either the one or the other!! It is stratight forward and as simple as it come! When I want to redirect her to the webpages of the FOS she ask why. I told that I want her to read what a redress constitute of and what cummulative payments means! She told me she know how to do a redress. Huh??? Now what is the problem then miss! Well I do not hold back and she said she can understand that I am frustrated. Replying I am not frustrated but angry because it is so simple and for them to be unable to get even something as simple as this right is wasting my time!

 

At least I gave her a good "start" to her day because she has hardly sat down for the morning and her computer wasn't switched on yet!

 

The bottom line is that I will send her the outstanding statements and the spreadsheet with the redress so that it completely clear to any brain dead person, even an PPI adjudicator! I will insist that should she still reject this then she HAS to tell me why she is not using cummulative payments.

 

The thing about her reply and what you have said is why don't they come out and state that you cannot use the principle? Then you can argue you can and they can state you can't. At least that is a proper difference of opinion. Stating that the premiums did not caused the charges while the biggest idiot (even my good friend Vladimir Putin the new 007!) can see that it is the case, is a ridiculous way to back up their friends, the greedy banks!

Edited by lord_tiger_putin

“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

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By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

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Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

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Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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Even the FOS guidence says in their examples the bank should "reconstruct the credit-card account, by deducting the PPI premiums (and the interest or CHARGES that resulted from those premiums) to work out the closing balance without PPI"

 

So its a no brainer really. Going to go back to Aqua with this as I reckon they need to refund someif not all the charges plus interest.

 

Ali x


Btw I am no expert just give notes based on what I have read on here and other forums/sites, plus my own experiences and investigations.

 

All ccj's now dropped off file, 2 yrs to go to clear file.

All old debts either settled or made unenforcable.

 

RBS MPP-Full offer at 8 wks from first complaint

RBS Overdraft loanguard-full offer at 8 wks from complaint

Citicard ppi-with FOS finally paid 8 months after offer through FOS!

Capital one x2- with FOS

Monument ppi-with FOS

aqua x2 ppi-partialled settled still pushing for the rest

Black horse ppi-offers made and accepted except for one early loan they say no info held-still pushing for payment

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I had a a back and throw with them and eventually Aqua did refund ALL the [EDIT] charges plus the correct interest but they refuse the right interest on the [EDIT PPI premiums. They only refunded the small amount of the interest which the premiums incurred for the few days in the month but refused to calculate it in the way that should no premiums not have left the account, which makes a significant difference. That part I send of to the wasted space called the FOS, with them for over a year and still ongoing. On the other hand, RBS refunded eventually all the premiums with correct interest and eventually their the [EDIT] charges, but not the right interest, still an ongoing saga for that interest. It seems that they do not have the right tools to do a proper redress which include the charges!! Not my problem! If they cannot do it then they have to accept my spreadsheet! Sorry, they were eager to deduct these premiums without me even applying for PPI, therefore they did it without my consent, IHO - [EDIT] !! because I did not authorised these deductions! I also insist on compensation for this behaviour because I am convinced that they committed a [EDIT] (actually many, an [EDIT] for every premium!) and therefore they have no leg to stand on! Will see how this continuous to progress through the useless FOS!

Edited by ims21
Please refrain from defamatory/lebelous remarks - See Site Rules

“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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Sorry to jump in on this thread but I (claiming for my son)have just had an offer off LLoyds for miss sold PPI which I believe is below what they should be returning to him but the reason this thread Interests me is that within a few months because he was beginning to fail to service the Loan he was hit with large unplanned overdraft charges that within the next 13 months alone accounted for £1502, then carrying on charges for the overdrafts and missed DD accounts for in total some £3400 in charges for a period from beginning 2008 till end of last year so I too am looking to claim back all these charges so I am finding this thread very Informative and wish you all good luck and any tips on how to go about it,I will be keeping the charges claim separate from the PPI and I have already fired off a letter to Lloyds asking them to stop all charges due to hardship criteria but they have said he needs to make an appointment at his branch and arrange a talk with his manager or associate.

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I am considering adding credit card charges from other companies to my PPI claim to save the hassle of multiple court threats etc. I wander if this is something that would fall under being put back in the position I would have been without the initial PPI. I would think it could easily be argued that the snowball effect of bank charges after mis-sold PPI resulted in charges, then interest on those charges from other companies which should all be refunded.

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PPI seems to be one issue where consumer do get their fair share :becky::becky: and have significant successes against the greed :mad2::mad2: of the banks and credit card companies.

 

Getting a positive result when claiming the mis-selling of PPI is only part of the story. One has to ensure that the involved Financial Institution do a proper redress of the credit card or loan account when refunding the customer. It seems that many of them set up fix protocols what should be refunded and how to do it. Many of these fall well short of the recommendations of the FOS how such a redress should take place:

 

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/ppi/redress.html

 

This is clear guidelines and they do state that every case is different and the way in which the redress should be done would be different from case to case but the principles stay the same:

 

  1. 1. Putting the consumer back into the position they would have been in but for the failure on the part of the financial business.
  2. Redressing on the basis that the consumer would not have purchased the policy and should be compensated if they have been out-of-pocket in the meantime.
  3. The reconstruction of the account, to work out what the current balance would have been if the consumer had made the same monthly payments but without PPI. This should be calculated by deducting the PPI premiums and the interest and charges that resulted from those premiums (including those arising because the ongoing monthly balance on the account was higher than it would have been, if the consumer had made the same payments to an account without PPI).

 

This is the approach of the FOS and the examples they provided is for loans and PPI on credit card accounts but they do stress that it is only examples and that the principals stays the same.

 

Let us now consider a common situation:

 

  1. You have a current account with Greedy Bank :mad2:
  2. You also took out a loan with Greedy Bank :mad2:
  3. This loan is served by payments from the current account
  4. PPI was sold by Greedy Bank :mad2: with the loan
  5. The PPI was mis-sold and you received a confirmation either from Greedy Bank :mad2: or the FOS

 

I can see no reason for why the current account should not be redressed when they refund the PPI. This means:

 

  1. Refunding all debit interest which would have been lower than those charged but for the failure on the part of the financial business.
  2. Refunding all credit interest which would have been higher than those charged but for the failure on the part of the financial business.
  3. Refunding of all charges but for the failure on the part of the financial business.
  4. Interest on these charges.
  5. Correcting all Credit Reference Agencies entries to reflect the status of the account but for the failure on the part of the financial business.
  6. A statement showing the resulting balance on the account – to be sent to the customer along with details of how it was calculated.

 

You should do a redress calculation yourself to ensure it is properly done and you will need all your statements. This could be an extensive task but the returns could be potentially huge!! For every month you will have to add all the monthly premiums to your balance and calculate the relevant debit and credit interest differences and add that. Should the balance be below the limit and over limit charges added, then this charge should be added from your balance. Should there have been enough funds to service a returned DD/SO/Cheque, then this charge should be added as well and the debit and credit interest differences added. The premiums, charges and various interests should be cumulative and that will let the balance grow exponentially with a huge amount of credit interest. In most cases this will eliminate all but the earliest charges.

 

Off course the banks will through all sorts of arguments!! An example is that you could serve the loan from another account. In my case they asked whether my salary are paid into my current account when applying for the loan and it seems that it would have been difficult to obtain the loan should I not paid it from the current account. Anyway I had no other option than to pay it from that particular current account. There could be other arguments but I believe they can be defeated.

 

I had some successes on credit cards getting back the charges and I referred others to the FOS, after they refunded the premiums and some interest but failed to do a proper redress. I posted this on the relevant thread and stated the fact that a redress should include the charges and landy_alert raised this point, therefore I should thank her for that because that let me start to think that this should be a valid option. I have a loan PPI claim with the FOS now and will add this to “test drive” this argument and will post any updates on that.

 

Hi Lord_tiger_putin

 

I've just come across your post and wondered how this ended. Did you have any joy?

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Hello there.

 

Lord Tiger hasn't logged in since 2012, so I don't know if you'll get a reply. If you have a similar problem, it would be better to start a new thread of your own.

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Aaah ok! Thanks for letting me know honybee13.

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Hi honybee13

 

Do you know of anybody on CAG who has attempted to get their bank charges back via the method that Lord Tiger suggested? Its seems like a rational approach...

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no!!

 

 

no-one

that's rather a whimsical argument..

 

 

so what issue do you have with what bank and why..


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

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Summary

 

Advantage Gold Account held between 1998 – 2008

2 x PPI reclaims successful

1 x NatWest Credit card PPI complaint successful

1 x Packaged Account fees complaint ongoing

 

Bank charges History

 

Circa £7000 taken in Bank charges between 2004-2008 which caused extreme hardship and stress related illness at that time. Whilst there is no hardship now, there was severe hardship at the time so my belief is that any claim now would be based on current circumstances and fail. Any thoughts on this?

 

A complaint made to bank in 2007 to recover charges was put on hold by the bank until the outcome of the Supreme Court test case, which due to the outcome seem to conclude concluded that the original charges reclaim complaint could not succeed.

 

However, I am wondering whether,with an account reconstruction to validate, a claim can be made with the suggestion that if those mis-sold PPI premiums were not taken from the Advantage gold account in the first instance, monies would have been available in the account and the charges would not have been incurred, so therefore need to be returned. A back door approach for sure, hence my Interest in Lord Tiger’s thread.

 

How say thee dx100uk? Is there any viable route to reclaiming these charges? Has it been done before under any similar circumstances as outlined above?

 

thanks

 

no!!

 

 

no-one

that's rather a whimsical argument..

 

 

By the way. Why do you think Lord Tiger’s approach was whimsical? Where do you feel it fails?

 

thanks

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