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    • Thank you for your reply. Yes the hob was bought Sept but not installed until early Dec, started showing faults almost immediately but because it was 'bought' over 30 days Curry's washed their hands of it. The hob cost £229.00 and I still have it here. Yesterday I sent an email to Alex Baldock CEO of Curry's and I received a reply almost immediately from his office who have passed it onto their 'Executive Resolution Team' who will investigate and respond to the matter in due course. The email sent was more or less the exact copy of the one that I posted here so we will now wait their investigation and I will let you know the outcome.
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    • Hi CAG,   First time poster here.   I would like to start off by saying that I've read through various threads and it's quite heartwarming to see the level of attention and support you give to people dealing with often stressful and anxiety inducing circumstances. I'll certainly be making a donation as this is truly a valuable resource.   I've read several similar threads to my own situation but I thought I'd seek your advice.   I opened a letter just a few hours ago from London Collection and Compliance Centre which is dated 11th January 2022 for an amount totalling £870.68. I'll attach a copy below. I can't quite remember the date of the initial offence. For context, I boarded a bus (I believe in 2018) and unbeknownst to me, my contactless card did not register correctly on the reader. I had my headphones in with music playing and was sat for my journey and then was approached by a ticket inspector who informed me that I did not tap and therefore was unable to provide proof of a valid ticket. Despite explaining the circumstances, I was asked for my details which I provided in full. I was honest and forthcoming with the ticket inspector but I wasn't aware this would amount to a fine as I was provided with a printed pass for the remainder of my journey. I accept liability for not being able to provide proof of a valid ticket and do not wish to dispute this regardless of intent.    I'm not entirely sure why I didn't pay the fine upon receipt of TfL's initial correspondence but I'm a long time sufferer of anxiety and depression which at times is so debilitating that I'm unable to make the best decisions or carry out simple actions. Some of which would mean I wouldn't need to make this post. I struggled financially at the time of receiving this letter and further correspondence which placed I did not deal with correctly because of the mental state I was in. I struggled to cope with and stupidly I neglected my responsibility and buried my head in the sand. I made an error in judgement that I wholeheartedly regret.   As of writing (early hours of 26th January 2022), the 10 working days given in the 'Further steps notice' has elapsed (25th January 2022). I rarely receive mail and therefore I don't regularly check my mailbox. However, I decided to take a look today as I suspected I missed a Royal Mail delivery. I intend on calling the number on the letter at the earliest appropriate time in the morning and dealing with this matter. I'm desperate to right my previous wrongs as I've worked hard to deal with my anxiety by beginning therapy. However, like many others in this thread, I'm worried about the prospect of having a criminal record. I'm 26 years only and I don't have any previous convictions nor have I had any trouble with the law. I have a real love for the service TfL provides and I'm capable of listing off an endless stream of related trivia. I have no previous run ins with TfL and regularly travel on the network and pay the correct, full fare each time.    I'm worried about how this will affect my future in regards to employment and my intention of naturalising as a British citizen (I've been in the UK for 20 years now).   I'll note my primary questions below and would truly appreciate your advice.   a) If I get in contact with the number on the letter as soon as possible, will that be too late despite the close proximity to the deadline?   b) What would be the best potential approach to resolving this issue? (I'm unable to pay the amount in as a lump sum.)   c) If I were successful in arranging a payment plan/somehow paying the amount in full, how would that affect the court proceedings? Would this still result in a criminal record?   d) I've seen other threads which mention OOC settlements with TfL, would this be an option despite receipt of a 'Further steps notice' letter?   e) Should I end up in court or have the opportunity to speak to someone over the phone - will I be able to explain my circumstance and plead for leniency?   f) What other general steps would you suggest I take at this stage to mitigate the consequences?   Apologies for this post being so long, I wanted to include as much relevant detail as possible and I'm more than happy to provide any that's missing. I don't want to make excuses for myself. I completely accept I'm in the wrong for allowing things to get to this stage, despite the difficulty I had with my mental state but I want to do right by myself and deal with this. I'll post regular updates and be sure to include a conclusion once I deal with the matter regardless of the outcome.   Thank you in advance for looking at this post, I really do appreciate what you do.   IMG_2609.pdf
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Overlooked for promotion


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Hello

Sorry for hijacking, i do not have a facility to start my own thread or i am too thick to find it(i have been searching for half an hour) If a mod could move it else where(not the bin please:)

 

My problem is i have been overlooked for promotion, the company hired a temp then made the temp permanent and promoted them. The reasons they gave, i proved with facts and figures to be rubbish so the manager gave another reason saying the temp got the job because she has the ability to mother the team along and portrays a motherly figure. I have raised a grievance, where they said if it would have been a bloke then they would have said fatherly figure etc. I am going to raise an appeal but would like to know if i am right that considering i had rubbished their original reasons for hiring the temp then coming up with what i believe is a slam dunk discriminatory reason. Can they just fire me if they don't like me raising these grievances? Can i take them to tribunal whilst still working for the company?

Any help will be humbly and gratefully received.

jimmy

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Oh dear. My best advice would be to quit while you are ahead.

 

Let's start with the simple fact of recruitment and promotion. An employer can recruit and promote who they like, and providing that there is no discrimination involved then that is ok. So the fact that this was a temp, became permanant and was promoted over you, in itslef, is quite lawful. So your "proof with facts and figures" isn't proof of anything at all. You can prove the sky is blue and the grass is green and it doesn't matter one little bit - they can appoint who they like. So the reason that they gave you is their explanation, and you didn't accept it - this is what is called "tough luck". It doesn't matter what you think of their reason - it's their decision and not yours.

 

Now they could have quit at that and told you to take a hike with your onjections to their promotion choice, but you continued to push it and one manager said something which was, they will and have claimed, a poor choice of words. A single instance of a poor choice of words, which has been reasonably explained, is not discrimination. You have pointed out a poor choice of words, and they have corrected it - not terribly well because I would avoid any comparison to motherly/fatherly figures, but it is a credible explanation, and without any other evidence of discrimination then a tribunal are not going to accept that it is discrimination.

 

In cases of discrimination, the initial burden of proof is on the claimant (you) to prove that discrimination may have taken place. What you have described here is not sufficient to turn the burden of proof to the employer, and if you cannot do so you will loose.

 

Can they fire you for making grievances - no they can't. But you aren't winning friends and influencing people, and that can be just as bad. Get them p**sed enough at you, and it could mark your cards. The next promotion that comes along, you won't get shortlisted for, or won't get. Any minor transgression (and believe me - there are few saints out there, so they can find something if they really wanted to) will be a disciplinary. That doesn't mean that an employer will take it that way - but they very well may. And it is a matter of some ease to do so lawfully.

 

Can you make a claim whilst still in employment? Well if you are still resolute on doing this then yes. You will need skin like an elephant because in the several months that it will take (at least) to get to tribunal you will definitely not be the most popular kid on the block, and one foot out of place and they will have to be very tolerant employers not to go for the throat.

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I am a barrister specialising in employment law, and only represent employees. My advice on employment issues is advice - not legal opinion - and is based only on the facts you provide. If you want an accurate assessment of your case and prospects, you should get legal opinion from a lawyer - not a public forum. Anything I tell you is for guidance only, and is based on my experience of the law in the context of what details you provide.

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Hello Jimmy and welcome to the forum.

 

I've asked the site team to start a thread for you. Just so you know, to see how to start a thread, come out of this thread using the back arrow. Then scroll up past the yellow stickies and on the left hand side, you'll see an oval blue buttom that says New Thread, for next time you need it.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hi Jimmy

 

Just what kind of discrimination are you suggesting? If you do have a discrimination case then, as SarEl suggests, you must have the proof. Can you tell us a bit more detail that leads you to believe that discrimination has occurred? What kind of work you are in?

 

Have you access to some sort of legal help if it comes to taking the employer to a Tribunal eg union, legal protection insurance? It is really difficult to 'go it alone' as employment law is really complicated especially discrimination cases so if legal help is available to you then it is best you seek that help.

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As far as I am able to see the only evidence was an incautious remark about "mothering the team", as the poster said that that was "slam dunk discriminatory" - which it is actually a long way off being.

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I am a barrister specialising in employment law, and only represent employees. My advice on employment issues is advice - not legal opinion - and is based only on the facts you provide. If you want an accurate assessment of your case and prospects, you should get legal opinion from a lawyer - not a public forum. Anything I tell you is for guidance only, and is based on my experience of the law in the context of what details you provide.

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I agree SarEl, which is why I am asking if there is any other information. Jimmy obviously feels very aggrieved and I just want to give him as good advice as possible, which obviously needs a detailed explanation which he has not yet given.

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Firstly thanks to HB and Ida for the thread advice and moving my thread.

Thanks to SarEl and Papasmurf .

First i agree with SarEl that employers can hire and promote who they like and fire who they like and face repercussions if any afterwards. I understand this.

Let me expand

My first grievance is breach of contract as this person was placed in my position. I took this position with the Senior title as "according to previous redundancies i couldn't officially be called a supervisor/manager" so in written contract i have nothing that depicts my position but have been acting in this position for over a year. Then a temp was hired for 3months- i queried this with my boss who told me it was because the department were moving up north where i would be recruiting, training and running the new team, so the temp was going to be running things at the current location whilst i put in place the team up north.

Then the decision was made not to move departments and a meeting was called to say the temp was promoted to permanent position and would be running the team. I queried this in the meeting by asking what criteria they had used. I then requested an informal meeting the next day with my line manager to specifically discuss the promotion and it was here that i disputed the reason the day before with facts and figures(i do all the reports so know) My line manager then said that despite that what she really likes about the temp is her ability to mother the staff etc Now maybe SArEl it was an off hand comment but in the context of the meeting we were in and the fact that the reason given for the promotion was rubbish as proved. Then i can only conclude that this was prima fascie discrimination on the grounds of sex (in a way proved by the absence of evidence for the promotion and what was said).

I also raised a grievance that the companies policies and procedures on promotion and equality were not adhered to at all in this process(i know SArEl legally they probably don't have to be followed) BUT they are there for a reason and not following them could very well mean the employer intended to discriminate in the first place. They also, by not following the Policy and Procedures according to the same employee handbook committed gross misconduct on more than one occasion.

So that's the shortened version, as for quit while i'm ahead, oops too late sent the appeal today. I know i'm not making friends in management but i did not relocate my whole family 100 miles for a job that are dime a dozen where i was living i relocated for the advancement of my career and the role i was hired for(although that is only verbal contract now and continued evidence of working in that role and evidence from recruiter)Any promotion chances won't happen for at least another 5years(probably 50 years in my case:). But the overriding factor is the dishonesty from my manager, who only bothers to actually work 2-3 days a week and the ideas i brought with me from my previous role which would greatly benefit this company have not been used for over a year because i found out my manager did not pass them on to the process team and in fact used them for her own application in a new role she has carved for herself.

 

So i have proof in writing that the manager said the discriminatory things. Would that with the background of the context they were said put the burden on the employer?

Papasmurf i work in office environment for multinational company and no i have no access to any legal aid, not even on my home insurance:(

SArEl i do have double thick elephant skin i used to work frontline in the police. Hence perhaps i am pigheaded but when i see things that are not right,well they just aren't right, perhaps with a pregnant wife and 2yr old i shouldn't and just bury my head in the sand, but that's not right.

Any thoughts on above would be great any constructive critcism too is appreciated.

regards Jimmylesaint

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Jimmy I take it you have read the Equality Act 2010? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

 

Also in your grievance did you specifically mention that Sex Discrimination was one of your grievances? This is important because should you suffer because of this then, if they have not yet victimised you, they may because of raising the grievance over an allegation of Sex Discrimination open themselves up to an allegation of Victimisation. I am sure SarEl will give her opinion on discrimination now that you have told us more, although I don't think you have explained any additional facts that would change her mind.

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I very much regret that you are not going to like this reply at all, and I am sorry for that, but it needs to be said. You have a case of absolutely and utterly nothing. No sex discrimination has taken place, and you are being utterly unreasonable. A manager made a comment, part of the vernacular, to describe certain attributes of another person. It was incautiously phrased, but it in no way whatsoever constitutes sex discrimination in the appointment process. You have had this context clarified and explained to you by the employer in a quite reasonable way and you refuse to accept this.

 

I appreciate that it is hard to be passed over for promotion - but that is the employers perogative. They did not give this person your job - you did not hold this job, you had no agreement about this job being yours, and you contractually hold another job (the one that you are in). And you do know this yourself - you have said that you were passed over for promotion, not that you have had your job given away and you have been demoted. You had no claim on this job, and it's been given to someone else who the employer considers to be more suitable. I am sorry, but that is tough luck. It happens.

 

If you attempt to take this to tribunal you will totally alienate your employer. But more to the point, you will do so for no good reason. Your employer has not acted unlawfully, based on anything that you have said. When / if this goes to CMD there is a strong likelihood that your BEST case scenario will be a strong warning from the Judge that your case has no merit and you risk a costs award against you. If that warning isn't clear enough - or if you ignore it - you will be in jeopardy of costs. A very rare thing, but it does happen.

 

A single incautious use of a vernacular term is not discrimination. You have been given explanations for why you did not get the promotion, but the bottom line is - they did not think you suitable for the job, and right now you are risking them thinking that you never would be, or even worse, that they regret having you in employment at all. There are times to fight - there are times to recognise that you are on quicksand and retreat is a great idea. This situation is the latter.

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I am a barrister specialising in employment law, and only represent employees. My advice on employment issues is advice - not legal opinion - and is based only on the facts you provide. If you want an accurate assessment of your case and prospects, you should get legal opinion from a lawyer - not a public forum. Anything I tell you is for guidance only, and is based on my experience of the law in the context of what details you provide.

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Hey Papasmurf thanks for the input, i believe the Act 2010 doesn't apply as the grievance was pre October.

SarEl i hear what you are saying but disagree, my role as supervisor was taken over by the temp, when i complained breach of contract then the next day the Temp had a new title, that of manager. And so they dodged the breach of contract by doing this. which in the alternative i grieved about the equality criteria and the remarks came up as described which yes you look at as trivia but which i look at as continued evidence with the rest of the history balancing the probabilities in my favour. Also i have emails from directors saying how shocked they were to have a grievance from me. It turns out the only people who were considered briefly internally, were below me and both female.

As for alienating my employer, to late they have alienated me. i also don't need such thick skin as my peers understand the issues and many been in the same place over the years. Perhaps SarEl/Papasmurf a questionnaire be sent pre tribunal to establish the details? What do you think about the breach of company procedures which constitute gross misconduct? If they don't enforce it, then surely that gives rise for anyone to ignore the policies?

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You have no grounds to force them to apply company procedures. You can report an alleged breach - but it is up to the employer to decide what, if anything, they do about it.

 

I have advised you as far as I am able on the alleged sex discrimination. You have no case, and I will not collude in perpetuating your belief that you have by giving you advice on how to make a claim for something that does not exist.

 

The PERMANANT (not temp - what someone started off as is no indicator of what they later become or their rights to be considered suitable for promotion) employee has been given a job. It is up to the employer to determine who they appoint. You were not entitled to that job - there is not even any legal guarantee of a right to apply for it. So nobody has been given your job. Your were not removed from your role, you were not demoted, you had no change in your contractual responsibilities or conditions. So nobody was given YOUR job because you were never removed from your job.

 

I am sorry, I really do understand why you are upset, but I have to say again - you have provided not one shred of evidence that the employer has actually done anything legally wrong

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I am a barrister specialising in employment law, and only represent employees. My advice on employment issues is advice - not legal opinion - and is based only on the facts you provide. If you want an accurate assessment of your case and prospects, you should get legal opinion from a lawyer - not a public forum. Anything I tell you is for guidance only, and is based on my experience of the law in the context of what details you provide.

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I had something similar happen to me and also raised a grievance but got nowhere. It then turned out that the person who was promoted over me was a good friend of the manger and had been prior to being appointed. They drank together, played football together etc but I could not prove a thing. As things turned out due other factors, but in the main this person's incompetence, the company folded as his actions cost us several million pounds!

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SarEl i clearly don't get the sex discrimination thing then. What is evidence in sex discrimination?

Surely being told the promotee was able to perform an action that is soley reserved for the opposite sex then i, being male was discriminated against, not because of my ability to do the job but because of being born a male. This as i understand is unlawful discrimination the evidence is what was said, simple. Surely now it is down to the employer to prove otherwise, and to try to flippantly explain it away is not a defence or a legitimate reason but in fact back an attempt to back track on what was an honest admission which is in fact discriminatory.

Just as i understand if for instance someone said something to me in a derogatory way which intended to stir up hatred about my catholic religion then that is illegal. It cannot be justified by saying it was a single case of incautious use of vernacular and perhaps offering a reason that if i was Jewish they would have used that term instead.

I'm sure you are more experienced then i am in employment law and tribunals SarEl and perhaps you are even of the "learned profession" but i don't see that it is not discrimination as you say. I do however appreciate your input.

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ooh i forgot, i agree i have no grounds to force them to adhere to the policy and procedures or to enforce them. Legally they don't have too either i believe.Although it doesn't look good in a tribunal.

But if they don't in this instance enforce the policy and procedures which meant the manager/s committed 7 cases of gross misconduct and will not be punished. Then if in the future for instance i don't(or any other employee) adhere to a same policy and/or procedure and they do enforce it(after all my cards are now marked) and dismiss me. Then is this not unfair dismissal/ victimisation?

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Hello again Jimmy. Just a couple of observations if I may. SarEl is an employment barrister of 30 years' standing I believe, who represents employees at tribunals, if that carries any weight with you.

 

The 'mothering' thing, if this is a key factor in your argument. It could be argued that people of either sex are capable of mothering/fluffing up/motivating/not sure what else, a team. I'm really sorry that you're aggrieved, but I'm not sure your reasons for complaining stack up at the moment.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I have to agree with the position SarEl has over the SD issue, your employer pointed out the other persons strong point in a poor way verbally, then corrected to what i'd consider a reasonable response.

 

If they had of replied with "well we wanted someone with this type of managerial trait and only women are capable of it" you may have been on to something.

 

To use another analogy if they said "we wanted a man for the role as women are too emotional for senior positions" that would be a slam dunk as you put it.

 

They have not stated the quality shown is gender specific only the description they made was. The original wording actually related to a very poor choice of words in this day and age but no negativity was shown in the fact you are male as i see it, I understand you disagree here

 

I also agree that your contract was never breached as it covered your substantive post not the one your were undertaking. The only potential argument i see is a breach of trust and confidence. This is obviously the constructive dismissal route and this quote says it better than i could

 

"Constructive Dismissal cases are often seen as the last refuge of the desperate and the first refuge of the bar room lawyer"

 

 

"It was an implied term of the contract that the employers would

not, without reasonable and proper cause, conduct themselves in

a manner calculated or likely to destroy or seriously damage the

confidence and trust between the parties"

 

Now i guess you would lock onto the destruction and damage it has done to your trust in your employer in that, I look at "reasonable and proper cause"

 

I would say you do have a chance of winning a claim for that, the problem with chance is nearly all the time it comes up with nothing.

 

If this did get to be heard i would expect a company to take the line of your complaint being vexatious and frivolous and simply go down the line that your were not at the capability of the role and that there was a better choice than you.

 

It's hard not to think your going to go for it no matter what so good luck in getting into that magical 1 in 30 people who win these type of claims.

 

Managers are expected to tow the company line, If you don't back off or leave soon I expect that line to be used to hang you with by the company for something you would consider trivial.

 

My only real advice is if you have a wife and baby sit back and think about finding another job to support them before you end up with non at all.

 

Sorry not to be more positive but you have come across as blinkered to your own argument, i'm not trying to have a go here, it's very easy to fall into that trap when your pursuing something you want to be true in grievances. There is the potential you are correct, you may even find a case you feel mirrors your own through a bit of digging.

 

I'd never advise you to do so though.

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I am not sure how much clearer I can make this. They used a term which is in the common vernacular to express something, but as Honeybee points out, having a "mothering" or "fathering" nature is not discrimination is it is mentioned. What the employer told you was that they were looking for a management style which was nurturing and supportive of the staff. They are obviously of the opinion that that is not your style and are unprepared to promote you to this position because they feel you lack the requisite qualiites. The use of a poorly chosen word does not constitute sex discrimination. None of which is particularly relevant - you were not in the running for the position. It is very clear to me from your own version of events that for whatever reason, you were never in the running for this position. They didn't even consider you because they did not want you in it. It was given without interview to an employee that they determined was best suited to their needs. So they did not create a post and then ask you and this woman to apply. They had a temporary employee who they obviously valued for some reason or another and wanted to retain. They therefore created a post which they gave to her. You objected because you said it was "your post" - although tere is absolutely no evidence of this. It may have had the same title and responsibilities, but that is the employers business - they can have six of "you" if they want. You were not dismissed, you were not demoted, your pay was not cut and your conditions remained untouched. Because of an objection that you submitted, they decided that they would still want to retain this person, and so they created a new post and gave it to her. That's entirely their business and their choice. They did not choose her over you because you weren't the ever considered for the post. And they can do that.

 

Whether this is nepotism, as someone suggested; whether it is favouritism; or whether her face fits and yours doesn't, they can do exactly what they have done. They did not advertise the post, they did not invite applications, and the only person in the running for the managers job was her. That is the blunt truth and it is not unlawful for an employer to act in this way. It may turn out to have been a foolish decision, or it may not, but it is the decision, and I am afraid you have no case.

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I am a barrister specialising in employment law, and only represent employees. My advice on employment issues is advice - not legal opinion - and is based only on the facts you provide. If you want an accurate assessment of your case and prospects, you should get legal opinion from a lawyer - not a public forum. Anything I tell you is for guidance only, and is based on my experience of the law in the context of what details you provide.

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Thanks for the input. I am putting my side across to the forum here, specifically to see how and where it is shot down, i am taking in what you guys are saying as well, agreeing in some instances and not in others. What really is my sticking point is

a)their actions did not pass my logic - for example if this temp was/is so good then why not follow company procedures and let any internal candidates apply(half the team would have liked a chance too)The temp being so good for the job would in theory ace whatever criteria they use to choose. Thus not causing resentment amongst the team as at least everyone would have had a fair crack or seen to have a fair crack. Instead they placed someone who has no qualifications!Has experience as near retirement age, but not in the sector we operate in and also hasn't worked full time for the last 7 years.

B)The result of their actions will lose them half the team with over 20years experience. The result of their actions have left other staff in tears as apparently no one has ever been promoted internally over the last 9 years- although there have been 5 positions filled.

C) It was admitted i would be running the team up north yet when the move didn't happen i suddenly didn't have the requisite skills to even be considered. This is illogical.

 

Thank you djhutch well written, disagree with my case but offer alternatives. I think the rope is now well and truly out there for either me too hang or perhaps if the Senior managers don't like my manager to hang them?But i do expect to be fired tomorrow for my appeal- or any other excuse. I've come to terms with this being inevitable.

I do disagree with SarEl(respectively of course:) when he says i have no case, of course i have a case, i can raise the ET1 and go to tribunal there's my case, what i think you are saying SarEl is i have minimum chance of winning my case, However just so long as the case is accepted to tribunal and i understand it has to be 99.99% of the time. Then the proof is with the people involved and this would be an exciting challenge for an experienced barrister to weedle out the truth and show off the lies that come from the decison makers. i would order them to attend and question them SarEl, and they have covered their tracks and lied so much they will be found out It is one thing to be in the manager club at work and cover each other,it's another thing to be sat all alone sworn in an dbeing "cross examined" by a professional. I have the luxury of being a simple man and therefore only tell the truth There is also the matter of a questionnaire to be sent for them to fill out in discrimination cases, i doubt all three departments would get it together to cover lie.

Then i may be wrong,,,,, but the timeline of events and laws of logic are all in my favour, aren't tribunals about the "basis of probabilities" that one party is telling the truth more than the other?

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This will be my last post on this matter as it is clear that you had decided to go to tribunal no matter what, and that is your right - although a foolish and unreasonable thing to do. You know the potential consequences of that action, and if you are willing to risk your job AND costs awards against you to make a point then that is your decision.

 

However, to correct one thing that djhutch says - and to mostly reiterate a few things that I have already told you but you clearly have not heard.

 

It isn't a "magical 1 in 30 people who win" constructive dismissal cases - it is less than 3 in a hundred, and the cases that do win are exceptional in their volume of evidence. More than any other type of case these are the ones where more fall before a tribunal than get there, and the buirden of proof is entirely on the claimant from beggining to end - it NEVER shifts to the respondant.

 

As for the rest:

1) Making a claim and having jurisdiction accepted does not mean that there is a case to answer. You do not understand the term "case".

 

2)SarEl is not a he, she is a she, and has fought at tribunal and EAT more discrimination cases than you have had hot dinners - for men as well as women.

 

3) Sorry for the capitals - I am away from my office at a hearing and my "cut down" PDA version of Explorer can't display the full menu so I have no other method of emphasising a point but - THE PROOF IS NOT WITH THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. In discrimination claims the burden of proof is on the respondant in the first instance to show that it is possible that discrimination took place. I have explained to you in great detail that neither the circumstances nor the comment demonstarte that any discrimination took place, not least because you were not asked to apply for the job that was created, nobody was.

 

4) This would not be "and exciting opportunity for an experienced barrister" - no experienced barrister will touch it with a barge pole, and I am wracking my brains to think of one inexperienced enough to think that there is a win in this matter. The same goes for a solicitor.So you have to be very aware - anyone who agrees to take the "case" that you claim to have would be so inexperienced and unaware of the law that you may as well ask the janitor to represent you.

 

5) You appear to be under the impression that employers cannot lie well and will not be able to do so - they can, they do and they often get away with it. But they don't need to lie - they haven't done anything wrong here. We have explained to you over and over again why that is, but you don't hear it.

 

6) You have totally misunderstood what a balance of probabilities is - and I see no purpose in spending a great deal more time explaining this concept since you are going to do what you are going to do.

 

I am saying this one last time, because I am deeply concerned for your family as much as for you. You may have submitted an appeal, but you still have the chance to accept the outcome of the appeal and drop the matter. If you go to tribunal I have utterly no doubt that you will loose your job, one way or another. If the matter goes to tribunal you will loose - I am absolutely certain of that. You may find that the employer is willing to pay you off just to get the matter resolved. But be aware that this is not a win - it is a small downpayment on unemployment for you at a time when being unemployed is not a great idea.

 

djhutch has mentioned breach of trust and confidence, but I want to add another aspect to what he has said. Vexatious and continued complaints and greivances about matters which are actually not valid are also breach of trust and confidence, so if you persist on this route you are giving the employer a perfectly valid cause to discipline or dismiss you. Despite everything you have said your employers actually appear to be quite tolerant - amny would have told you that who they appoint to what positions is their business and not yours, and if you didn't like it then you could take a hike. They have not done so - they have responded reasonably and have continued to try to reason with you when they did not have to. Tolerance usually has a breaking point, and you are pushing towards that.

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I am a barrister specialising in employment law, and only represent employees. My advice on employment issues is advice - not legal opinion - and is based only on the facts you provide. If you want an accurate assessment of your case and prospects, you should get legal opinion from a lawyer - not a public forum. Anything I tell you is for guidance only, and is based on my experience of the law in the context of what details you provide.

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Hello SarEl and Jimmy. I've been mulling over post #20, but without SarEl's legal knowledge. My thought from a layperson's point of view was also that if you push this too far, you could be disciplined or dismissed. If you want to move to another employer, then this would appear on any reference you need in the future.

 

You seem to have decided on the ET route before you started talking to us though, and I hope this doesn't end up in a financial mess for you and your family.

 

Good luck, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Just one thing I would add from my personal experiences about taking a discrimination case to the ET Jimmy, it will engulf your life like little will have done before. There will be an ebb and flow when you think that you are making progress but that will be set aside with self doubt, worry and betrayal from erstwhile work friends who will not back you (even if they say they may or will). All that and that does not even start to explain that the experience may tip you or you wife into depression.

 

In short, please please consider dispassionately any court action and take legal advice on it befoe you embark on it. Last point it is always a bad idea to make the first move, let the employer do the overt act not you. A better tactic I would say is to see how they react to you after the event. If the manager appointed this person because they know her (which is possible) then they will start to bully and harass afterwards to get their 'own people' into position. If you are intent on an ET case wait for them to do the horrible stuff and keep using policies to raise grievances if you have that thick skin.

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  • 3 months later...

Hi Papasmurf/et al

I like your thinking and honeybee and SarEL. All good points. I have not gone into this deciding to go to Tribunal i am merely thinking ahead of the game at possible areas and scenarios where it will end up.

Clearly now i have had my appeal heard and received an apology for the company not adhering to it's own policies and procedures. However, as expected SArEL they fell short of admitting breach of contract and just said i had been seriously misled. SDA they found not to have occurred and accepted the managers answer that it was a throw away comment with no meaning or if it were a male then male reference would have been used.

So all in all some concessions but no admittance that would make them liable as one would expect. I have accepted this being reasonable and conciliatory and knowing that the managers behaviour is noted, again(apparently there has been years of grievances raised against this manager)

As can be expected now the victimisation and harrassment has been going on for a few months, the little niggly things. The allowing peers to have training and not me, the piling up of work and then overloading the work amount on me and informing the rest of the departments that it is my fault the works not being done. The catch up meetings with my peers and trying to get them to say i am causing a bad atmosphere in the department. The isolation of me as no catch up meetings for me. The one PDReview was the projection of guilt on me for not doing a report or telling someone it was not done--because i was in hospital?!The racist remark(which i guess they would just explain away and say if it was any other race the remark would have been just as predjudiced,derogatory and demeaning?!!LOL) The reshuffle of seating plan which sees me furthest away in the corner. The open attempt at humiliating my excellent work by taking away a percentage of results achieved(for no known reason) to lower my score and parade this in front of a HR representative(By the way SARel i have learnt that HR are there to 1)do as a manager tells them 2)Keep the company out of the courts)

 

In short as expected. I cannot stand around and let this happen so am making notes and have quite a history, frankly i understand what i am dealing with a sociopathical serial bully. History shows that 4people under her have been bullied out or made redundant in the last 3years. The department has a sickie average per year of 15days per person! Peers are pulled in to prearranged meetings and shouted and sworn at. the list goes on. It does rub me up the wrong way because the reason i joined the special constabulary was to protect people from the bad people, the bullies of society, or get those people of the streets and in to HMP.

The problem is that as some have raised, could they just dismiss me(under mutual trust has been lost) with one month notice? If they do that can i then raise an unfair dismissal with regards the harrassment and victimisation and bullying? Also if they do that can i get a high court writ to order them to not dismiss me? I work in a multinational company i like my work i like my colleagues and every one else just one sticking point is my manager. I don't see why i should leave, especially as my manager, like most bullies do it to hide something, in this case my manager does not have a clue after 6years how to even switch on the software we use, let alone use it, her "qualifications" are not what she makes them out to be, my manager has serious inadequacies.

Should i list the events that have happened and send to HR again under a formal grievance, citing health and safety act 1974?

Should i do above and work from home until such a time as the work place under the HSA1974 is safe and free from bullying and psychological pain/hurt?

If one of my peers reported a case of bullying(of which the manager said she behaved like that because she was ill LMAO) to HR unofficially, does this mean it is unofficial or is it the duty of care of HR to ensure proactive steps are taken to investigate the unofficial complaint, especially as it impacts on the HSA?

I appreciate your help, because like most consumers we are too poor to pay a top notch professional to act for us or advise us, yet our moral code of conduct must remain robust and part of that is too not stand idly by whilst evil is committed. How can i look my daughter in the eye for the rest of my life and know i did the wrong thing by doing nothing, yet try raise her correctly and preach her morals and ethics that i cannot stand up to myself.!?

I have been to tribunal before when all the staff were asked to do something that was dishonest and later turned out to be illegal as well. I was the only one to refuse and the only one fired, albeit the reason for firing me was made up. That took nearly a year to resolve but went to tribunal for 2 days and won simply on the basis that they believed my version of the events and not my managers. WHY, simple i told the truth and the facts as they were and my manager had to remember the cacophony of lies. Also i had a decent barrister who asked the right questions, subpoeaned the right people.!

 

I would and do hesitiate to go down that route as it is very stressful(although i doubt the 2nd time round would be as bad) I fear i'll end up there, because of my employers actions since my appeal. Time will tell.

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  • 1 month later...

So they are ramping up the gears, not allowing me to have training but other people can, moved desks to other end of department. Trying to pick holes in my work and lying about my work rate. I have requested a reduction in workload some 8months ago which has not been actioned and in fact got added too soon after my appeal was finished. Surprise surprise:) Changeed my contracted hours without consultation, and other individually minor issues which all add up.

My question is can i make a formal complaint under victimisation and harrassment laws as the ongoings have been extremely stressful and the ongoing excess workload has caused immense mental stress and physical injury to the neck,shoulder and wrist. Is this a breach of the Health and Safety Act and leaves my company liable for prosecution as well as the individual that is harrassing and victimising me for a civil personal injury claim??

Any other fire power will be helpful.

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