Mbna

[woody1066]

I had a credit card from my bank (Abbey)Which it turns out is an MBNA card . As a result of illness (I have had cancer) I fell behind with my payments.

When i first realised that I was going to be out of work and ill for sometime i made an agreement that I would pay £70 per month. As far as i was concerned I this

was still in place. However i now discover that they ended this agreement sometime ago and that I am now £600 over my credit limit as a result of late payment charges and penalties.

 

I recieved a letter from them 2 weeks ago telling me that they were going to take a payment of £96 from my account and subsequently increase my monthly payments to an undisclosed amount.

 

I phoned their customer service number and spoke to them and was assured that if I made a simple payment of £1.60 and then upped my monthly payments to £90.00 then they would not take this payment.

 

I have just looked at my bank statement and they HAVE taken £96.00 out of my account. This has put me £45.00 in unathorised overdraft and has left me with no money for food or travel until I get paid.

 

I am in a state of real despair and am worried beyond belief

 

Can somebody tell me how I can get my money back and do I have any chance of claiming the subsequent charges my bank are doing going to inflict on my as a result?

[maroondevo52]

Hello and Welcome, woody1066.

 

You should re-claim every penny the have taken from you in charges.

Have a look at the step-by-step.....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/31460-example-step-step-instructions.html

 

You will also be able to claim 8% interest when it gets to court.

 

The Bank will fob you off with stuff about the Court Case, but just stick to your timetable, all the way to court.

Your claim will more than likely get 'stayed', but by that time at least you'll be in the system.

 

If you don't have all your statements, send your SAR.

 

This will let you know exactly how much they have charged you, and you can add any new charges, right up until you file at court.

 

 

Keep this thread updated, there's always someone around to help you out

 

Good luck with that.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

 

You never know they might even pay you without going that far, people are still getting refunds, even with the court case continuing.

[woody1066]

Thanks for the prompt reply. I will be claiming the charges back from them without a doubt. But my more immediate worry is the fact that they took money out of my account despite telling me they wouldnt

[maroondevo52]

How does that not surprise me Law unto themselves.

 

Not sure there's much you can do about it.

[transparentspoon]

Hi,

 

Sorry to hear about this - what a nightmare...

 

If you haven't already done so, I'd recommend your first step is to go and see the bank to convert the unauthorised overdraft to an authorised one (for the amount owed plus the amount of charges they'll stick on the top).

At least this way, you stop any further charges (apart from some interest) while you try and reclaim the money back. The trouble with unauthorised overdrafts is that they'll just keeping rolling over month after month and the bank won't care unless you go and talk to them.

 

What MBNA have done is possibly illegal, but I wonder exactly what kind of card you have and what the relationship is between Abbey and MBNA. If you can give any more details (without compromising your identity in any way)

the very knowledgable people here can help you draft a letter to MBNA and/or Abbey (I'd suggest both). If you have the documents to hand, check to see who has responsibility for the credit agreement

and whether there is anything in the small print about a financial association between your credit card and your current account being made.

 

Hope that helps, and good luck!

 

Neil

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Woody 1066!

 

Further to the advice above...

 

Do you also bank with the MBNA/Abbey?

 

If not, then CANCEL their Direct Debit immediately. That will stop them from dipping into your bank Account when they feel like it.

 

If you do bank with the MBNA/Abbey, then I'd suggest moving your basic bank Account elsewhere.

 

Assuming you do not bank with the MBNA, then there may be a way to ask for that £96 back IF you have anything in Writing that confirms they said they would not take this. If you do, tell your bank that it was an Unauthorised Direct Debit, here's the Evidence, please go and get the £96 back for me please.

 

Next steps I would advise are all related to how to deal with the MBNA.

 

(1) Don't Call them, ever.

 

(2) Don't answer any of their Calls, ever.

 

But do keep a Log of all Calls they do make by Date/Time and their Telephone Number if it is not hidden. Try to Record and Save any Messages they leave, and if you can, try to organise a way to Record any Telephone Conversations you do end up having to take, or deliberately take to gather Evidence against the MBNA to prove Harassment and any other wrong-doing, such as Offering you Loans when chasing a Debt (against OFT Debt Collection Guidlines).

 

(3) If you do happen to get caught on the Telephone by them, don't say who you are, don't answer any Security Questions, but do ask for the MBNA Caller's Full Name...and then hang up. Reason? The Police need names if they are ever to take action for Telephone Harassment, so keeping a Log now could be handy in the future.

 

(4) Send them a Letter making it clear you will only Communicate with them in Writing...but read (5) below first!

 

(5) If they start to Call you more than is reasonable (once is too many times in my book, but more than once a Week is regarded as Harassment by many), then send them the Telephone Harassment Letter, here's a Template for that:

 

Dca / Creditor Harassment By Telephone Letter

 

I'd also add the following to the above, just to remove any right for them to send Visitors, or Threaten to send Visitors in the future:

 

In the event that you intend to escalate the above Harassment to include Doorstep calls by your Employees or your Agents, please be advised that under the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) Rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have absolutely no wish to make an appointment with you. There is no need, as Written Communication is quite acceptable in Law.

 

Please note, there is only an implied license under Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore, take note that I revoke license under Common Law for your Employees, or your Agents or your Representatives to visit me at my property and, if you do so, then you will be liable to Damages for a Tort of Trespass and Civil Action will be taken.

 

The above Letter will make it quite clear that you will only Communicate with them in Writing, and it also sets the stage for the future, should the MBNA start to hit you with their Harassment Machine (huge volumes of Telephone Calls and Truck Loads of silly Computer Generated Threat Letters).

 

After this, it is up to you. But my suggestion would be to sit down and take a long hard look at this Debt, to see how much of it you really owe. If you have all of your Statements from them, then it can be productive to analyse the figures, if you don't have the Statements it could be worth investing £10 to send them a SAR to obtain them. When you do have the Statements, go through each Statement, and split every transaction into a small handful of Categories:

 

Here's something I prepared earlier:

 

Have a good look at your Card Statements, and start to add up the big numbers:

 

A = Total Purchases (not including Interest, Penalty Charges and Fees).

 

B = Total Interest (make a note of Interest Rate rises as you do this).

 

C = Total Penalties (Unlawful Late Fines and Over-Limit Fines).

 

D = Total Routine Fees and other Charges like Annual Account Fees or Credit Card Cheque Handling Fees.

 

E = Total Repayments.

 

Take a look at A and E. I bet (if you've had the Card a long time) you have Paid them more than you have Spent. If so, then they have their Money back already.

 

Now add up B+C+D. Add that to A, and then take away E. The figure is the outstanding Debt on your Card.

 

In most people's case, that Debt is made up almost totally of charges and interest.

 

Once you have done this, you can now begin to see how your alleged Debt to them is made up. Also, take a good look at when they raised your Interest Rates, and take a good look at how often they increased your Limit. You may be surprised to see that they may've increased your Interest Rate just before increasing your Credit (Debt) Limit. Why raise the Rate implying you are a bad risk, and then give you more Credit (Debt) to play with? I'll tell you why...it's Debt Manipulation, that's why!

 

Once you have all this clear in your mind, and on Paper or in a Spreadsheet, the next Steps may become more obvious.

 

Do you really owe the Debt if it is mainly make up of Charges and Interest?

 

How much of that Debt is made up of Unlawful Charges and punitive levels of interest?

 

Talking of Interest, the follwing may help you to understand how much they have been charging:

 

1.3852% Monthly = 17.95% Annual

1.4566% Monthly = 18.95% Annual

1.8735% Monthly = 24.95% Annual

2.5292% Monthly = 34.95% Annual

 

Finally, do they have an Enforceable Agreement that binds you to this alledged Debt?

 

It's a question well worth asking yourself. Then asking them.

 

Don't jump down the s78(1) Agreement Request Route until you have all of the above clear in your mind first, as you need to know that once you hit the MBNA with this, it will be a one-way trip. They will continue to add Charges and Interest, and will also use any non-Payment by you when the Account goes into Legal Dispute (which it will, as they never seem to have any Agreements worth squat) to ramp up your Interest Rate.

 

However, if you feel the Debt has been manipulated and you do not, in fact, owe them anything like as much as you first thought, if anything, then you may find that the s78(1) Agreement Request Route is a path that you must follow.

 

If nothing else, going through the above should get this matter straight in your own mind. How you deal with it once that has been achieved is up to you.

 

Please do ask any questions here before taking any significant steps against the MBNA.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[woody1066]

There have been developments! Firstly to answer your questions, I used to bank with abbey but because of the way they treated me when I told them I had cancer (I will start another thread to describe the events), I have now changed my bank account to RBS.

 

I spoke to MBNA (I had to phone them), they agreed that they had taken the money despite tellling me that they would. They reluctantly offered to pay me back plus any bank charges that may have accrued. However I was able to get my new bank to stop the money going out of my account and it was credited back.

 

This does not mean that MBNA re finished with ,me though they are saying that I am £600 ove my limit and want me to increase my monthly paymnents to £100 which I can barely afford

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Woddy1066!

 

I spoke to MBNA (I had to phone them), they agreed that they had taken the money despite tellling me that they would. They reluctantly offered to pay me back plus any bank charges that may have accrued.

 

Take care talking to them, as they may well deny anything later, especially if it was in your favour.

 

If I had a pound for every time someone is advised not to talk to them, and then does, and then later says: "damn, I wish I hadn't done that, as they are now denying what was said."...I'd have lots of pounds!

 

The Telephone is their Weapon of Choice so, if at all possible, stick to Letters. I know they are slow, but when the MBNA start putting pressure on you via Telephone, Letters s-l-o-w t-h-i-n-g-s d-o-w-n! They give you time to think and gather your thoughts.

 

On the Telephone, all bets are off, and you can be subjected to underhand tactics that are wholly denied to them when they are forced to communiate via Letter.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[woody1066]

I thought that I had better start my own thread on this as I dont want to hijack anybody else's. I have an old Abbey credit card debt which it turns out to be run by MBNA. They have routinely been adding late payment charges and upped the interest rate to around 35%.

 

I have CCA'd them and have heard nothing back. They are outside of the 12+2 day limit. Having read the thread with regards to no CCA's I need advice on what to do next.

 

Should I send them an SAR request with a view to claiming back their unlawful charges or should I go down the no CCA no pay route.

 

I am paying them £100 per month but they have sent a threat-0-gram demanding i pay another £95 to bring my arrears down. Which has inspired me to take action against them.

[PGH7447]

If they have failed to supply the CCA, then you are within your rights to withold payment.

 

Yes you can sar them for the statements and reclaim any back

[woody1066]

If you would have asked me 2 days ago I would have had no hesitation in stopping payment to them for no CCA, but having read the 12+2 days thread I now hesitate as it seems that it is perhaps not as black and white as I thought

[dietcola]

Spam removed

Edited December 5, 2008 by jonni2bad

[PGH7447]

can a mod remove the link please

[PGH7447]

If you would have asked me 2 days ago I would have had no hesitation in stopping payment to them for no CCA, but having read the 12+2 days thread I now hesitate as it seems that it is perhaps not as black and white as I thought

 

what 12+2 days thread?

[woody1066]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/169675-stop-standing-order-payments.html

 

This one

[PGH7447]

O' that one

 

Well I would do as stated in post 9 and send this

 

This is only my understanding of your question.

 

If they produce an enforceable agreement, they are entitled to demand any and all missed payments. I would be tempted to send this letter before you stop paying :-

 

 

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

 

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

......................... ..............

 

 

Print or type your name.

[PGH7447]

And I see that you have asked the same question on there, in the end we can only advise, the rest is down to you, as my signature block says

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel

[dietcola]

intense... indeed with all the debt advice and matters, dont bury your head in the sand... stay positive, after all most people are in debt for thier entire lives...

Edited December 5, 2008 by jonni2bad
Spam removed - not much left now!

[woody1066]

Thanks for the advice. I will send the account in dispute letter tomorrow and se what develops. I will keep you informed as to any developments.

 

I know I have already posted on another thread but as I said at the top of this one I didn't want to hijack that one

[woody1066]

After nearly a month after requesting it I recived this from MBNA yesterday. Can you experts have a look at it for me and tell me if it is the genuine article or a load of crapquest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pinky69]

It has the prescribed terms - reference to a credit limit, an interest rate and repayment schedule - the elements of an agreement that render it enforceable - BUT, it is illegible; parts of it are almost totally obliterated. You are entitled to a legible copy of the agreement and I would put the account into dispute until they provide one. The agreement must be legible and if they took you to court you could argue it isn't.

[SteveH2508]

Look at the first copy. The box in the middle headed 'MISSING PAYMENTS' is not aligned properly - it covers part of the line above - it is a different shade.

 

If that is part of the same original document then my c*ck is a bloater!

 

That is one of the shonkiest attempts at a reconstruction I have seen.

[woody1066]

Looking at the original you are right you can see where the missing payments part has been stuck on. Surely this is borderline fraud or am i being melodramatic?

[SteveH2508]

Might be worth taking down to the local police and see what they say - it is quite blatant. I doubt they would take it up but it is worth an ask. At least it might rattle those muppet's cages.

 

OFT would be interested as well I suspect.

 

Don't hold your breath though.

[SteveH2508]

Another thing I have just noticed - they cannot argue that the two documents are connected at all.

 

The first copy mentions default charges of £25 (para 3 Key Information)

 

The second copy has para 3 Key Information showing charges of £12.

 

DOH!!!