Reconstituted Agreement Query

[loring]

Hi

I have been trying for about 2 years to get a copy of my Credit Card agreement from the Original Creditor.

Recently he sent what he called a reconstituted agreement which consisted of a set of terms and conditions with no indication of what creditor they belonged to , what period they referred to and 2pages of a blank Credit Card Application forms and lots of detail about Carey v HSBC.

The first application form contained hand written details of the Credit Card Number. my Bank Account Number and an address which was one I lived at 13 years after I obtained the Credit Card.

The second page of the application form contained only a hand written date

for application of the card. This date was incorrect, about 10 years out.

I wrote back ad told them I did not think the information supplied would fulfil the requirements laid out in Carey v HSBC as the information supplied could never have been taken from the original application form.

They have now written back and asked me to advise them exactly which aspects of the agreement are incorrect

I think they are taking the mick, I think I have no obligation to tell them which information on the reconstituted agreement are incorrect, otherwise they will resend it corrected. They have not issued court proceedings yet. Can someone advise me if my assumptions are correct.

Thanks

Loring

[postggj]

Hsbc v carey has a lot to answer for

 

when you do a cca request, the creditor can send a reconstructed agreement but

it must be an exact copy

 

if they had that

 

why send a reconstructed agreement

 

they would need the original to enforce in court

[rebel11]

Also Carey v HSBC (2009) Look at point (4) - summary at the bottom. If the agreement has been 'varied', they have to send a copy of the Original Agreement as well as Terms and Conditions. They love to cherry pick bit they like and ignore the bits they don't like.

[postggj]

Can we have a stickie on this as i keep repeating myself so we can just post a link to any new cagger

[loring]

Hi Postggi

Yes I am 100% sure they don't have any agreement.

The question I asked was do I have legal responsibility to tell them exactly what is wrong with their reconstituted agreement and to send supporting documentation to them.

Loring

[rebel11]

Hi postggj

 

I've requested it on your behalf.

[coledog]

Subbing

[postggj]

Well in my opinion no

 

under a s77 to 79 cca request, the creditor has an obligation toget it right

 

rebel gave a typical answer

 

as far as ime concerned they have not satisfied your request and account in dispute

 

you may tell them whats wrong but thats up to you

 

they cant have there cake and eat it

[loring]

Thanks postggi and Rebel11

I feel better now that you believe the Creditor has to get it right and I should not have to provide the information they were requested to produce. I also acknowledge that on the forum we all can only give our opinion on issues as we are not lawyers.

I will write back to the creditor and ask him to check the reconstituted copy against the original which he holds and he should be able to spot the errors.

 

Thanks

Loring

[postggj]

you can request to see the original agreement at your local branch

 

put in the letter that if they fail you will do a formal request under cpr 31.16

[loring]

Hi

I

I wrote to the bank and requested that they arrange for me to view the original copy of the agreement. It is probably about 22 years old.

I received a quick response which means very little and I hope someone can tell me what they are talking about, this ia what I received

 

" The reconstituted copy which we sent you represents a true copy of the agreement within the meaning of the Carey Decision"

The 1983 regulations do not require a true copy to be a signed and dated agreement. ( I never questioned this but why do they quote the 1983 Regulations)

"The Agreement application became the agreement once it was signed by you" ?

" if the reconstituted agreement sent to you is incorrect please advise which aspects are causing you concern and forward any documents you are relying on" Not likely.

 

Hope someone may know what they mean by their statements, the never confirmed I could view the originals they just ignored that

 

Thanks

Loring

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Loring

 

The 1983 Regs refer to Cancellation and Documents, defining what could be supplied in response to a CCA request. Carey subsequently enlarged upon this (and made a total mess of it). However there are benefits in that they must still provide an accurate reconstruction bearing your name and address, date and terms and conditions at the time of opening. If the T&C's have been varied they should send a copy as varied AND a copy of the original agreement.

They are allowed to populate the reconstruction with your details from other sources but if they cannot do that they cannot complete the CCA request.

 

Might be an idea to write back to them on the lines of:

I am most concerned at your response to the section 78 request for the above account, and your failure to respond to my subsequent request to inspect an actual signed agreement.

I am familiar with the Carey judgement and also the OFT guidance on complying with s 77 to 79 requests, and regret to inform you that this account remains in dispute for non compliance.

 

The law prescribes that you supply an accurate reconstruction together with a statement of account.

The document supplied, stated to be a true copy, is so materially inaccurate it cannot possibly be so, and calls into question the standard and reliability of your record keeping for the duration of this account and your credibility in insisting that this is a true reconstruction.

As a financial institution you clearly have a duty and legal requirement to maintain accurate records, and I do not feel it is appropriate to expect me to supply you with information in order to assist you to evade your responsibilities or cloak administration errors.

In order to avoid further templated replies, I repeat my request that you confirm in writing whether or not you hold an original signed agreement for this account, as I have no recollection of signing such a document. I would refer you to the requirements of CPUTR 2008 in considering your response, as I feel I have already been misled by your responses to date.

 

Don't just take my word for it though..just my opinion. See what others think, suggestions for amendments welcome.

 

kind regards,

Elsa x

[loring]

Hi

Thanks Elsa for your reply. It is very useful as O intend to write back to them today.

Can you or any other poster explain what they mean when the write

" The agreement application became the agreement once it was signed by you."

I just do not understand what that is supposed to mean.

The reconstituted application form they sent has no reference to any terms and conditions.

Also the reconstituted application form is made up from 2 separate forms and has 2of sections 4, 5, 6 and 7. It is made from 2 different forms.

I Would welcome any comments.

Loring

[DonkeyB]

Hi Elsa

 

I don’t think a reconstituted copy requires a date. Unbelievable, but true.

[DonkeyB]

Maybe have a read of this. Not sure how much applies if proceedings have not been threatened. And read to the end – pt2537 started this well ahead of Carey et al, so there’s lots to take in and juggle around.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?173201-why-you-shouldnt-use-section-77-78-CCA-1974-if-you-want-the-signed-agreement(2-Viewing)-nbsp