Being fined for not having tax----great considering i dont own the car

[letsgetitsorted]

i had a letter a week ago saying i would be fined for not having car tax from august 2010 i px`ed the car in mid july and sent slip off (retaining a copy). i sent them proof that i did not own the car,

recieved a letter back saying that i needed a letter from them confirming change of ownership. and i should have read my v5 to confirm this.

i am still liable for the £80 fine......any advice pls

[crem]

i had a letter a week ago saying i would be fined for not having car tax from august 2010 i px`ed the car in mid july and sent slip off (retaining a copy).

By "slip" I presme you mean the section 9 V5C/3 which is the correct section to send for a "sold to trader" notification.

 

i sent them proof that i did not own the car,

recieved a letter back saying that i needed a letter from them confirming change of ownership. and i should have read my v5 to confirm this.

They always refer to this about "NEEDING" their confirmation letter and they'd love this to be law, but the bottom line is it isn't!

i am still liable for the £80 fine......any advice pls

 

No, you are not, but they will drag it out for as long as they can trying to get you to crack and pay their fine. It may even go all the way to court (but they usually pull out before getting there).

 

Your defence is the fact that you did send the correct notification, and will swear to this if and when it gets to court. They claim to send you an acknowledgement after about 4 weeks, but there is no law requiring them to do so and there is no law requiring you to ring them if the letter doesn't arrive (although in hindsight it may have made your life easier if you'd realised they hadn't sent the letter). Your main element of defence is that having sworn you have sent the form, then the Interpretations Act setion 7 states that a document is deemed to have been delivered to the recipient 2 days after posting for 1st calss and 4 days after posting for 2nd class unless the receiver can PROVE to the contrary.

[letsgetitsorted]

Hi Crem

many thanks for your response, as a result I have put this letter together, what do you think?

 

Dear Sir/Madam

I write with response to your letter dated 27th October 2010, of which the contents have been noted.

I appreciate that it is my responsibility to notify the DVLA of the change of keeper, this was done on 4th July 2010 using the yellow trade slip as requested via first class post.

Since 3rd July 2010 when the car was handed over to *********,

 

This trader “*********” have the remainder of the V5 certificate as the car has been handed to them.

You say in your letter that it is up to me to contact the DVLA if I had not received a letter of acknowledgement, and that because I did not contact the DVLA to pursue the acknowledgment letter then I am still liable for the penalty.

I note on looking at my V5 that I have for my car R*****M purchased in exchange for X*****A, that the information saying about the acknowledgment notice is contained in the section V5C/3 that is sent to the DVLA along with this is the contact details, this information is nowhere else on the V5 certificate.

Please can you confirm the following?

1) The point of Law that states that DVLA have to send a confirmation letter showing change of keeper.

2) The point of Law where it shows that I have to contact DVLA if I have not received this confirmation letter.

I have referred to the regulations/acts that are mentioned in the footnotes of your letter and there is nothing in there that says I have to contact the DVLA if I do not receive a confirmation letter, there is also nothing in there that states that the DVLA have to send a confirmation letter.

The DVLA states that I have no defence because I did not receive confirmation from them. This confirmation letter from the DVLA is not a legal requirement!

With this in mind, below are some legal points of which I have followed.

 

Change of keeper: obligations of registered keeper where vehicle registration document issued in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997 and the new keeper a vehicle trader

23.—(1) Subject to regulation 24, this regulation applies where—

(a) There is a change in the keeper of a vehicle;

(b) The person disposing of the vehicle is the registered keeper;

© A vehicle registration document has been issued in respect of the vehicle in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997; and

(d) The new keeper is a vehicle trader.

(2) The registered keeper shall forthwith notify the Secretary of State, on that part of the registration document which relates to the transfer to a vehicle trader, or otherwise in writing, of the following—

(a) The name and address of the vehicle trader;

(b) The date on which the vehicle was transferred to the vehicle trader;

© A declaration signed by the registered keeper that he transferred the vehicle to the vehicle trader on the date specified in accordance with sub-paragraph (b); and

(d) A declaration signed by the vehicle trader that the vehicle was transferred to him on the date specified in accordance with sub-paragraph (b).

(3) If the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, the registered keeper shall deliver to the vehicle trader those parts of it not required to be sent to the Secretary of State under paragraph (2).

Interpretation Act 1978

 

Section 7 References to service by post

 

“Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.”

 

As I previously stated I used first class post to “deliver” the V5 document on 4th July 2010 of which complies with both regulations as stated above.

 

 

 

 

As stated in Human Rights Act 1998, Schedule 1, Article 6, section 2

 

“Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law. "

 

I have no proof of posting the V5 document because I have never had to have proof of posting previously . I also believe that I should not have to prove that I posted the V5 document and if this matter does indeed go to court it should be down to the DVLA to prove that I did not.

I thank you for your time in reading this letter and I look forward to your response.

 

Yours sincerely

[Dragons Dennis]

The magic shot in the foot for the DVLA was also the use of the word 'After' in their information. ie, you will receive confirmation AFTER 4 weeks. That means anytime from 4 weeks to infinity. There is absolutely no legal obligation for you other than sending the relative portion of the V5c to DVLA, which you did. Whether they receive it, lose it, eat it or insert it where the sun don't shine is of no importance to you or the law.

[letsgetitsorted]

hi Dragon

I never looked at it that way,

looking at the direct.gov web site there is also no mention of having to contact them after 4 weeks.

i will be saving that infor for a later date.

 

cheers for the response

[letsgetitsorted]

Hi All

Like many many others I to have had the pleasure of receiving one of DVLAs late Licensing penalties.

however knowing i have complied with the law, thus sending in the change of keeper notification, the DVLA have still sent the penalty saying i have the responsibility to notify them if i have not reieved the acknowledment letter.

I have now fired off my final position letter explaining the law to them.

my questions are these.

How many readers have been taken too court by the DVLA?

How many have won their case?

and finally what has been the judges comments in each case?

 

i am asking these questions in the hope that between us all, we can build up a strong defences in these cases that are nothing but a farse.

 

i look forward to everyones response..

[m4tty1984]

have the exact same problem

 

On march 27th 2009 i part exchanged my old kawaski er5 to a dealer where we both completed the relevant sections of the log book,i posted the log book to the correct address along with a hand written letter asking that correspondance be sent to my new address as i had just split up from my girlfriend at the time and had moved just before selling the bike.I didnt hear anything for about 5 weeks,so callled dvla,spent 10 mins pressing buttons and listening to msgs to then be told i have to write in....which i did.2 weeks passed and the letter of acknoledgment arrived.end of!!NO!!!!!

I then received a letter from Inter-credit last week (20th nov 2010!!!) to my new address asking if i lived at the old address and to contact them.no refernce on the letter stating what the matter was about at all.turns out in oct 2009 i was issued with the fine for not sorning the vehicle.Absolute rubbish!!!

Since this i have spoken to dvla local office,swansea and also the sidcup enforcement centre who issued the fine.A complaint has been raised with my disgust explained.Am now waiting on a letter from sidcup with evidence from the "microfilm" as to whether or not the log book was received and proscessed??!!I already an incline that they didnt receive the log book as i had to write in.so there will not be a rrecord of that hand written letter being processed as it doesnt contain the barcode they scan to record the process.i know they are going to come back and say they had neither and the fine still stands!!

Any advice on what to do???I have read through all the comments on this page and links and have made notes on quotes and legislations in oreder,i.e postal act,road vehicle act etc.not sure if this quote will help "He said the DVLA could be challenged because it effectively issues fines, without first seeking the power to do so from a criminal court"

please advise as i am not prepared to pay this fine as i have done what i am legally ment to do,but am not legally minded as to what to do next or if it goes to court

[Raykay]

It is not a 'Fine' from DVLA', it will be an out of court settlement offer for not (as they say) notifying them of change of keeper or for not having a licence. In these cases if you do not pay it, the matter can end up in the Magistrates Court and a fine if you are found guilty.

If their claim is for the Late Licensing Penalty, it is considered to be civil debt and can end up in the County Court.

 

If you and the trader completed the relevant part of the part of the V5C and you sent that part to DVLA, in the terms of the Interpretation Act, they are deemed to have received it.

[m4tty1984]

this is the problem,the log book was sent,i never heard anything for 5 weeks so i wrote in,again stating that i had moved just before selling the bike,giving new address etc.not that i had to legally do this,but received the letter of change of ownership.7 months and they issue the fine for tax running out in the oct 2009.but again,no updating of the system had happened.all future correspondese was sent to my old address.not until last week did i get the first letter and that was from the debt collectors!!!

[Raykay]

They haven't issued a fine, it is either an out of court settlement offer or a Late Licensing Penalty.

What should have happened is you and the trader complete the 'transferred to the trade' part of the V5C which you then send to DVLA, the trader keeps the rest of it. If the letter you received was their confirmation that you were no longer the registered keeper, and it was dated before October 2009, they should be dealing with the current registered keeper not you.

[m4tty1984]

only probem being is i part exchanged the bike in march 2009,tax run out in oct 2009,and the dealer didnt sell the bike till jan 2010.the dealer and i both completed the correct parts of the log book.

[m4tty1984]

sorry your right,its a late licensing penalty

[m4tty1984]

i have no idea why they are after me.i done everything i legally had to.i had the confirmation letter,but dvla are saying they never received the transfer and they never sent me the confirmation letter.even tho i know they did!!

[m4tty1984]

sorry,confusing myself here.yes the dealer had the log book and i sent the slip off

[Raykay]

Try to get a copy of the letter you sent and the one they sent you. I wonder if it was an 'error' by DVLA (nothing unusual in that!!) - they lost the slip you sent and as you had a different address, thought you were a different person and the new keeper.

In reply to your letter, instead of sending you, as the old keeper, the standard 'You are no longer the registered keeper' type letter, sent a letter to you, as the new keeper, 'thank you for telling us of the change of keeper' type letter which may not have changed the status of the registered keeper - they would wait for an application for a new V5C to do that.

In which case you, at your old address, could still have been be shown as the registered keeper untill the dealer sold the bike.

[m4tty1984]

again,a problem caused by dvla.i no longer have the acknoledgement letter that proves they changed the details and dvla are saying they have no record of this.so i cant get hold of a copy

[Dragons Dennis]

It doesn't matter a toss what DVLA want or say. The law is that you sent the relevant portion of V5c to DVLA by post. There is no requirement to chase them up for any letters at all. Write one simple letter in which you tell them that you have fully complied with the law by sending the relevant section of the V5c on [DATE] by first class post and that you will not enter any further correspondence with them.

 

If they take you to court, you will win.

[m4tty1984]

you reakon it is as easy as that?

[Dragons Dennis]

Yes.

[m4tty1984]

dvla reakon i never sent them the slip in to say that i had sold the vehicle to trader,or that i sent a letter to chase application or that they sent me the acknoledgment letter.how can i get round this?i am waiting on the microfilm evidence to see if they logged it but i know its not going to come back with anything??also what do i do about inter credit who appear to want to carry on legal proceedings regardless that i have made an appeal to dvla

[Dragons Dennis]

DVLA do not know if you sent the slip in or not, they only know they they did not receive it or that they lost it etc. They can jump up and down and stamp their little feet all day long, it makes no difference to the law which is VERY clear on this issue.

 

You have a legal duty to inform DVLA when you dispose of a vehcle using the official DVLA form (V5c). The law says that any letter sent by first class post is DEEMED TO HAVE BEEN DELIVERED. So, if you go into any court and swear that you posted the V5c by first class post the court MUST deem that you did and thus MUST deem that it was received.

 

There is no legal requirement or duty for you to chase up any paperwork or to check if they ever received it or not. You have fulfilled your entire legal duty and that is that.

 

Now, DVLA would love you to believe that they can fine you because if you do believe them, you might actually pay them like many do every year. They will use official sounding terms and very official looking letters with words like WARNING or Final chance before court action. Most people are decent honest people and never go to court. The thought of being taken to court by DVLA makes many cave in and pay. But the truth is that I can take you to court. Yes I can. I would lose because you owe me nothing, just like the DVLA, but I could still take you to court.

 

So, they will threaten this right up to you appearing in the court itself in the last minute hope that you won't show (like many) and then they win anyway by default. When you do appear and swear that you sent the V5c, end of case and YOU get costs not them.

 

So, let them take you to court.

[m4tty1984]

ok,do i need to prepare any form of paperwork or arguments?what should i do about inter credit as they are the ones chasing me?

[m4tty1984]

i'm not going to back down from this,its not my fault.i still have the invoices to show when the bike went to dealer.

[m4tty1984]

don't you mean they get the costs if i win?

[Dragons Dennis]

No. YOU get costs if you win. In other words, your out of pocket expenses like time off work to attend court etc.