Cant believe fos ....what do we do now ..need help

[sugg1]

The Beginning of this thread will explain most of it ,blackhorse first took us to court in 2006 and it has carried on from there.

But now we are stuck regarding the unsigned credit agreement by blackhorse if you read threw you will see that the FOS can`t even work it out.

The last time blackhorse were in court september time the judge wanted to know about the unsigned agreement and gave the next date for november well they never turned up and the judge was not happy so he said he would write to them and tell them they needed to reply to the court by 4th january this year which they did`nt so the case was struck out we have wrote to blackhorse but they have ignored us.

What we want help /advice is where do we go from here as there is a unsigned agreement ,and we want this sorted because blackhorse we are sure will come back again in a couple of years time and start another case against us ,so we want to clear this debt up so we know were we stand IE have it withdrawn/written off ect ,so we aleast know were we stand.

The fact that blackhorse never turned up the last 2 times or even replied to us regarding this make you wonder what they are hiding ,we got a SAR of thm and that included the unsigned agreement

[sugg1]

In order for a contract to be legally binding, it must be signed by both you and the creditor.

 

In this case it is`nt

[sugg1]

Bump please can some one possibley help

[citizenB]

sugg, apologies, have only just seen your S.O.S. Having a read of your thread to see how I can help.

[citizenB]

Sugg, I am trying to get my head round this.

 

You were taken to court by Blackhorse in 2006 who were trying to repossess you. They dropped the repossession part of the claim advising they just wanted their money in respect of the loan.

 

However, you discovered that the loan papers had never been signed by Black Horse until the date of the court hearing.

 

You also attempted a counter claim in respect of PPI where your husband had been denied a claim for a heart problem. Blackhorse having said he couldnt make a claim for 2 years !! Black horse then rolled up the two personal loans and again added PPI, but refused to pay out when hubby was discharged from the army in respect of a heart problem, saying that he had a pre existing condition.

 

IMHO, on both occasions you were mis sold the PPI and I am not sure how or why you lost the counter claim.

 

Anyway, the situation is that in respect of the agreement.. enforceablity has not been adjudicated on simply because Black Horse failed to turn up for 2 hearings and the Judge struck the claim out.

 

You now want to know what steps you can take to prevent Black horse coming back at you for monies.

 

Are paying any money at all on the agreement. If not, when was the last time you made a payment ? If you are making payments toward the loan, is this under a repayment plan.

 

Can you please confirm that the above, my understanding of your situation, is correct ??

[sugg1]

We lost the PPI case as we had signed a demands and needs form at the time of taking the newest loan ,but if i remember correctly (will need to pull out paper work) they had hubby and mine ages around the wrong way.

 

Yes your correct in respect to the enforceabilty of the loan in that Blackhorse have failed twice to appear in court and now the case has been struck out.

 

Yes we want to know where we stand in regard to Blackhorse coming back at a later date for monies.

 

We are not making any payments and have`nt since some time in 2007 or 2008 (will need to check with hubby and also check paperwork)

Edited July 12, 2011 by sugg1
changed years

[sugg1]

We lost the PPI case as we had signed a demands and needs form at the time of taking the newest loan ,but if i remember correctly (will need to pull out paper work) they had hubby and mine ages around the wrong way.

 

Yes your correct in respect to the enforceabilty of the loan in that Blackhorse have failed twice to appear in court and now the case has been struck out.

 

Yes we want to know where we stand in regard to Blackhorse coming back at a later date for monies.

 

 

We are not making any payments and have`nt since some time i beleive in 2005 or 2006 (will need to check with hubby and also check paperwork)

 

]

We lost the PPI case as we had signed a demands and needs form at the time of taking the newest loan ,but if i remember correctly (will need to pull out paper work) they had hubby and mine ages around the wrong way.

 

Yes your correct in respect to the enforceabilty of the loan in that Blackhorse have failed twice to appear in court and now the case has been struck out.

 

Yes we want to know where we stand in regard to Blackhorse coming back at a later date for monies.

 

We are not making any payments and have`nt since some time i beleive in 2005 or 2006 (will need to check with hubby and also check paperwork)

We lost the PPI case as we had signed a demands and needs form at the time of taking the newest loan ,but if i remember correctly (will need to pull out paper work) they had hubby and mine ages around the wrong way.

 

Yes your correct in respect to the enforceabilty of the loan in that Blackhorse have failed twice to appear in court and now the case has been struck out.

 

Yes we want to know where we stand in regard to Blackhorse coming back at a later date for monies.

 

We are not making any payments and have`nt since some time i beleive in 2005 or 2006 (will need to check with hubby and also check paperwork)

We lost the PPI case as we had signed a demands and needs form at the time of taking the newest loan ,but if i remember correctly (will need to pull out paper work) they had hubby and mine ages around the wrong way.

 

Yes your correct in respect to the enforceabilty of the loan in that Blackhorse have failed twice to appear in court and now the case has been struck out.

 

Yes we want to know where we stand in regard to Blackhorse coming back at a later date for monies.

 

We are not making any payments and have`nt since some time i beleive in 2005 or 2006 (will need to check with hubby and also check paperwork)

We lost the PPI case as we had signed a demands and needs form at the time of taking the newest loan ,but if i remember correctly (will need to pull out paper work) they had hubby and mine ages around the wrong way.

 

Yes your correct in respect to the enforceabilty of the loan in that Blackhorse have failed twice to appear in court and now the case has been struck out.

 

Yes we want to know where we stand in regard to Blackhorse coming back at a later date for monies.

 

We are not making any payments and have`nt since some time i beleive in 2005 or 2006 (will need to check with hubby and also check paperwork)

Edited July 12, 2011 by citizenB

[sugg1]

I don`t why the last post repeated 6 times.

 

Also just to confirm CitzenB everything you metion in your last post was correct

[citizenB]

I don`t why the last post repeated 6 times.

 

Also just to confirm CitzenB everything you metion in your last post was correct

 

S'ok, it happens sometimes. I have merged them all into one post for you.

 

Please do check your paperwork.. cos if the last time you paid anything toward the account or admitted that you were liable for repalyment was in 2005.. it could possibly be that the account is now statute barred.. and could also be a reason why they did not turn up for the hearings

[sugg1]

I asked hubby and he said 2007-2008 was the last time payment was made.

I am not at home till later today so will double check paper work ,but hubby is pretty good on remembering roughtly so yea about 2007-begining 2008

[citizenB]

Hmm, just because you signed a Demands and Needs form, doesnt confirm that you either understood what you were being told or that you were given the correct information.

 

I doubt very much whether the switching of your ages would be of any value, other than to demonstrate that the advisor was a bit slack. Did you not question that at the time ?

 

2007/2008 would not be statute barred. It is 6 years from the last payment/acknowledgment of liability .

 

It does seem rather odd that having not turned up for court and the Judge striking out their claim, they havent pestered you in anyway. I think they would have a lot of explaining to do as to why they didnt follow through when they had the opportunity.

 

I think you need to wait for other people to chip in as IMHO, I would say wait until / if they do start mithering you again.. meanwhile make sure you have all your paperwork in order and look around the site for information that will help you.

[sugg1]

so your saying just to leave it as it is ?

so not to keep writing to them or take them back to court ,they know there is a unsigned agreement.

what do you think would happen if we did take them back to court would you think we would have a chance of having the debt wiped out and getting any money we have paid back ect

[citizenB]

so your saying just to leave it as it is ?

so not to keep writing to them or take them back to court ,they know there is a unsigned agreement.

what do you think would happen if we did take them back to court would you think we would have a chance of having the debt wiped out and getting any money we have paid back ect

 

LiPs taking court action against a bank is a lottery. Especially in respect of trying to have an agreement declared unenforceable. You only need to read round the forums to discover that. You would need to be absolutely sure of your ground.

 

In the event that you did go to court, and have the agreement declared unenforceable .. it would not mean that the the court would order the bank to refund any monies that you had already paid on the loan.. unless it was charges or mis sold PPI.

[sugg1]

Ok so its safer not to go down the court road so to speak and because Blackhorse have not come back to us leave it.

You mention about charges can we claim for them still ,not sure.

 

It just make me mad that Blackhorse will still get all monies back as this loan is secured on the house and if we sell they get paid off either way and like i have read in "order for the contract to be legally binding,it must be signed by both parties"

 

so it just seems to be they can get away with anything

[citizenB]

It may not be unenforceable but can be improperly executed and the court will need to decide what remedy to offer to the debtor, maybe to strip the creditor of any rights to charge interest or fees during the period of non-compliance, i.e. until they signed it or to make it unenforceable. Under a (fairly recent) EU case, the court has a duty to apply any unfair terms it considers may apply to the agreement.

 

CCA 1974 c.39

 

61 Signing of agreement

 

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed

terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the

prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the

creditor or owner,

 

and

 

EU case ....

 

In the event that Blackhorse do return for a 2nd innings, then it looks to me as though the above information would stand you in good stead. It might not convince the judge to declare the agreement unenforceable but it might persuade him that the agreement only became binding on the date BH signed it.. which appears not to have been until at least 2 or 3 years afterwards. How that would help.. I simply have no idea.

 

 

Ok so its safer not to go down the court road so to speak and because Blackhorse have not come back to us leave it.

 

You mention about charges can we claim for them still ,not sure.

 

It just make me mad that Blackhorse will still get all monies back as this loan is secured on the house and if we sell they get paid off either way and like i have read in "order for the contract to be legally binding,it must be signed by both parties"

 

so it just seems to be they can get away with anything

 

If there have been charges for late or non payment added to the loan, then you CAN claim them back.

Erm, you did not previously say this loan was a secured loan !! You do need to make very sure that interest and charges are not being racked up on this if you are not making any payments.

This makes it even more puzzling that they didnt turn up in court.

You really do need to seek some professional advice I think..

What I am advising is that unless you know exactly what you are doing and are able to hold your own in court as LiPs, then you shouldnt be taking BlackHorse to court as claimants. IMHO, it appears as though it would be better for you to be defending, where they need to be proving their claim. They obviously have a worry over something else they would surely have attended court for the last 2 hearings or attempted to have the strike out set aside.. but they didnt.. Why ?

Perhaps you need to revist the information you received by way of the Subject Access Request.

[sugg1]

I think we are going to take a trip to the CAB ,we went to a solictor last year about the unsigned agreement and all he was interested in was explaining about what a repo was, cost us nearly 1000 pound money which we never had as we are both disabled and unable to work and that has put us off solictors.

 

omg yes there has been loads of returned dd,late payment charges ect added to the account ..couldd you let me know what steps i need to take to get that happening ,as Blackhorse have completey ignored are last 2 letters to them this year, well completey ignoring us FULL STOP.

 

Yes we beleive that they are worried about something as well as we don`t understand why they never turned up to last court date or replied and defended there case to the judge.

 

blackhorse did`nt sign the agreement like you say untill 2-3 years after the loan was started as i metioned the friday before the court case ,but they put the day we were in the local office,but in the court hearing the head of the local office who said she took us for the loan on the day (who we had not met before) said she did`nt know whos signature it was as they were not signed in front of the customer or in the local office anymore ,but sent to their edinburgh ,but again we found out in the court hearing that the paper work was not sent from the local office until 10pm that night so it could not have been signed on that day.

The fos even said they knew it was not signed on that day but could not tell when it had been signed

[citizenB]

You would need to have all your statements in order to see what charges have been applied. You would then complete a spreadsheet which you can find in the library, the link is at the top of each page, then you would write to the creditor asking for them back

[sugg1]

OMG this morning we were looking threw the SAR from blackhorse and we came across some paperwork from a law cost firm that blackhorse used and this law cost firm told them 5 months before the court case regarding repossion that we would claim for mis-sold ppi and for a defective orginal credit agreement ,blackhorse were told to cut us a deal and drop the case.

 

How the hell this company knew 5 months in advance is beyond us ,we had never mentioned mis-sold ppi before the case and never even brought up about the unsigned agreement untill a year later.

 

it does seem to look as if this law cost firm and blackhorse knew that there was things wrong with the ppi and the credit agreement,also we realised today that we recieved the SAR end of oct 2010 and then in November they don`t show up in court and there is paperwork in the SAR to show they knew about the November court date/time ,don`t reply to the court in January and totally ignore the two letters we have sent them this year, makes you wonder why they are now hiding now we have the SAR.

[citizenB]

ooer, that sounds promising. I am just guessing here, but it is likely that with all the media coverage regarding PPI around the time you say the Law firm were consulted, that they recognised there was something wrong with the way in which the loan was set up. Their advice is obviously based on what could happen in the event that you knew what you were doing and would possibly counterclaim.

 

As I say, this is just a guess on my part you really need some advice from someone with more knowledge/experience. I will flag the post above for the site team and also send some S.O.S's for you.

[sugg1]

thank you citzenB ,still going threw SAR and might have more interesting info will let you know later

[Sk1ppy]

Is this 'Vexatious Litigation' where they have brought about the action regardless of its merits, solely to harass or subdue an adversary. They knew they never had a case a solicitor told them.

[sugg1]

another update ,a couple of weeks ago we had a letter from Blackhorse offering us back our PPI money from the account which they took us to court for.

We have not accepted it as we still have the problem with the unsigned agreement and we feel that if we accepted the money we would then be bound by the T&C of the unsigned agreement.

We have also had a letter from them going on about the PPI and again not anything about the agreement ,they will just not mention in their letters about the agreement full stop.

[citizenB]

What was the outcome of the court case originally? Would the PPI repay any monies outstanding, have they given you a breakdown ?

[sugg1]

we lost the PPI case but the judge refused to allow blackhorse repossion of the house or for us to pay the £4,000 court fees that BH wanted us to pay with 28 days and referred us back to the district judge.

we went back to the district judge and said about the unsigned agreement and the first time blackhorse wanted payment of £50 amonth the judge refused this because of the unsigned agreement and BL were told to come back a later date ,so went back again a couple of months later and the BL solictor was a diffrent one and said he knew nothing of the unsigned agreement ,so again was told to come back at a later date ,well this time BL never turned up so the judge said he would write to them and say they had to a certian date to reply with there defence or the case would be thrown out,well they never replied to the court so it was thrown out and now when we contact them via letter they either don`t reply or if they do its only about PPI and not the agreement its self ,no payments are being made and no interest being added.

There was never any mention of the PPI being paid back to us.

[citizenB]

Right, so the case has been dismissed by the Judge. Presumably that means no further action can be taken on this. However, I would say that you are still entitled to receive your PPI refund. I will try and find some help for you.