Cant believe fos ....what do we do now ..need help

[sugg1]

Myself and my husband have had an complaint with the fos

regarding blackhorse and today we had the outcome and they have fallen in favour of them seems from this thread thats no suprices.....

Here is a run down of our case,

 

Blackhorse wanted to reposses our house in 2006 and we counterclaimed against them regarding the PPI

which took 2 years to get to court, 6 weeks before the court date we wrote to blackhorse head office in cardiff asking for a

true

copy of our orignal credit agreement which we recieved aweek before the court date and we noticed on the credit agreement that the lender had NOT signed the agreement only us the borrowers ,we were told by our solictor who was a no win no fee PPI solictor to bring it up in court,anyway the friday before the start of the court hearing (which was starting the following monday) we recieved the court bundle from blackhorse inhouse solictors SCM and we saw the credit agreement was then signed.

 

we brought it up in court that we had a copy of our true orignal credit agreement that we had requested from their head office only weeks before and that it was unsigned by them but the one in the court bundle from their inhouse solictors was signed ,the judge agreed to add it to the case but would be unable to us it as eviendance ,the barrister for blackhorse screamed and shouted that they were being ambushed.

 

anyway we lost the PPI case but the judge refused to allow blackhorse repossion of the house or for us to pay the £4,000 court fees that BH wanted us to pay with 28 days and referred us back to the district judge.

 

we contacted the financial ombudsman regarding the unsigned credit agreement and we also wrote many letters to blackhorse headoffice asking who had signed the agreement and when ect as it came to light in the court that the agreement was not signed on site any more or signed in front of the borrowers and that the agreement could not have been signed on the same day as we signed as it was not sent off to their edenburgh ofice until 10pm that evening.

 

Backhorse sent the same agreements to the fos

the one unsigned and the other signed we know this as the fos

phoned us to ask some questions and the guy at the fos said and that he thought it rather strange that the agreements where photo copys of each other and the same in every detail including a barcode on the side and that one was signed and one was`nt and that he said it was a very straight forward case and that he was passing it on to the adjudicator

anyway we went back to the district judge every couple of mts on the request of the judge to try and settle the case ,in july of this year blackhorse told the judge they had dropped the repossion order and just wanted payments ,but the judge refused to allow payments to them until the judge had seen what the FOS recommended.

 

The letter arrived today from the fos saing it is not in the remit of there service to make a finding on whether the credit agreement is enforceable and in their view it is a matter that should be decided by the court becuase they are not a court and don`t have the powers to find it unenforceable and that their view is if you borrowed the money you repay the debt.

 

they go on to say they recieved the 2 agreements plus the advance copy and that on the balance of probailites that the signed credit agreements are genuine copies of the original loan agreement and have original on them and that the first (advanced copy) is just a printed copy with the loan details and the third copy was signed by blackhorse.

 

but there is nothing said about the 2nd agreement that was unsigned.

they go on to say of course it is possible that a court which is not bound by section 228 of FSMA would reach a different view and would be able to consider legal arguments relating to the case.their decision is not binding if we do not accept it and their consideration of the matter will not prevent us from raising the argument in court.

i know we are due in court on the first avaliable date after the 15th nov this year as the judge had said when we were there last.

I just don`t know where to turn now.

 

CAN ANYONE ADVISE US WHAT TO DO NOW

Edited July 11, 2011 by citizenB
spacing entered for easier reading

[MARTIN3030]

Will move your thread.

[sugg1]

thanks don`t know how it got put in this section

[tifo]

if the bank signed the credit agreement in 2006 then what date did they put on it?

 

if it is 2006 then it becomes executed from that date and you could say you had no obligation to pay any interest or stick to terms and conditions before that. If they're dated it from the time you signed it then it seems like fraudulent behaviour.

[rebel11]

Hi Sugg1

 

Have you sent Blackhorse a SAR Request with a Postal Order for £10. They have 40 days to comply. They have to send you all the data they have on your account.

Lets see what that throws up.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?552-Data-Protection

[sugg1]

if the bank signed the credit agreement in 2006 then what date did they put on it?

 

if it is 2006 then it becomes executed from that date and you could say you had no obligation to pay any interest

or stick to terms and conditions

before that. If they're dated it from the time you signed it then it seems like fraudulent behaviour.

 

They say that it was signed on the same day as we signed but the thing is ,is that we know from a court hearing we had with blackhorse back in march that they did not sign the agreements in front of the customer or in the local offices anymore and that they are sent to their office in edinburgh for signing.

We also found out in the court hearing from the computer print out that the paperwork was not sent to the edinburgh office till 10pm that evening.

so that does leave the question of how it could have been signed on the same day.

plus when we requested a true copy of our orginal agreement from there head office in cardiff they sent us a copy of our true orginal agreement but not signed by them.

[Blossomandebony]

Sugg1,

 

The fact the creditor didn't sign the agreement will not render it unenforceable, unfortunately.

 

Only if you hadn't signed it would you have a chance on the enforcability of the agreement.

 

What outcome did you get regarding the PPI? Because this is where you can press forward with a court claim with a very good chance of success given they have done the usual mess of mis -selling it in the first place.

 

BAE

[sugg1]

we lost the case in court regarding the PPI.

we did contact the FOS regarding some questions and they replied saying some of the following.

 

I have been unable to definitely determine why there are two copies of the loan agreement with your signatures, one signed by Black Horse and one not, in the two copies signed by you, your signatures are identical, Black Horse signed the loan agreement at some point after you did. I have been unable to determine when this happened.

 

yes because its a photo copy

 

it is not necessary for the customer representative who spoke to you about the loan to have actually been the person to sign it, and in many cases the loan agreement will not have been signed on the same day as the consumer signs it, for example in loan applications made by post. I accept that it is unusual that Black Horse produced the signed agreement only just before your court date. However in my view, even if the loan agreement was not signed by Black Horse until after 31 January 2006, this does not alter the fact that you signed the loan agreement.

we are not saying we never signed it ,and it was not done by post

The court can consider legal arguments about the execution of documents, and may reach a different conclusion. The question of when the credit agreement was signed and by whom is not relevant to our position

thats what we like to know when it was signed as we know it could not have been signed on the 31st

[sugg1]

if the bank signed the credit agreement in 2006 then what date did they put on it?

 

if it is 2006 then it becomes executed from that date and you could say you had no obligation to pay any interest or stick to terms and conditions before that. If they're dated it from the time you signed it then it seems like fraudulent behaviour.

 

yes they say it was signed on the 31st the same day we signed

[tifo]

yes they say it was signed on the 31st the same day we signed

 

It was obviously signed after the day the first copy was sent to you, so when did they send this?

[tifo]

The fact the creditor didn't sign the agreement will not render it unenforceable, unfortunately.

 

It may not be unenforceable but can be improperly executed and the court will need to decide what remedy to offer to the debtor, maybe to strip the creditor of any rights to charge interest or fees during the period of non-compliance, i.e. until they signed it or to make it unenforceable. Under a (fairly recent) EU case, the court has a duty to apply any unfair terms it considers may apply to the agreement.

 

CCA 1974 c.39

 

61 Signing of agreement

 

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed

terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the

prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the

creditor or owner,

 

and

 

EU case ....

 

http://www.out-law.com/page-10063

[citizenB]

On what basis were you challenging the PPI and why did you lose that claim ?

[sugg1]

The story regarding are PPI case can be found here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?162867-Blackhorse....LONG-STORY

[littledotty27]

As an ex Lloyds banking staff,ask them to send you the original agreement,not a copy but the original itself,they keep all records for 10 years + and place them in archive.

[sugg1]

ok thanks for the advice

[sugg1]

Just wanted to update you on the case as it is still on going and see what advice can be offered..

 

we went back to court at the end of Nov and Blackhorse never showed and had made no contact with the court to say they would not be attending ,the judge was supriced that they had not turned up and said that he would contact them and tell them they had till the 4th Jan 2011 to put forward a defence regrading the unsigned credit agreement and that if they did not reply by the 4th Jan then the case would be finished/gone.

 

It is now the 20th Jan and we have not heard anything ,if it is the case that blackhorse did not come back with a defence by the 4th like the judge asked ,where does that leave us what would the possible ruling be from the judge and would we be able to claim back any money paid ect

[citizenB]

YOu could telephone the court and ask if anything has been submitted by Black horse. If it hasnt, let us know and we can decide how you need to approach asking for a default judgment in your favour.

[sugg1]

I contacted the court and that had not recieved any thing from blackhorse ,so where do we go from here

[sugg1]

Anyone help?

[sugg1]

We have had the letter from the court to say that blackhorse never attended 29th nov 2010 and never defended their case by the 4th january 2011 ,so the case has now been struck out.

Where do we go from here we are stuck in limpo now ,we have a unsigned credit agreement that they have not defended in court on 2 occasions so shows they are hiding something so have just gone and done a runner ,but we want this sorted once and for all because blackhorse are`nt going to walk away for ever we know they will come back at a later date and start this all over again.

 

Can some one please please advice us what to do next we are trying to get an appointment with citzens advice but its very hard to get threw by phone.

[sugg1]

Forgot to say we sent off for the SAR which we recieved and yet again the unsigned agreement was there.

[citizenB]

So you have a an Order from the court advising that Black Horse claim has been struck out ?

 

Does it say anywhere on the Order that either party are able to object to the decision and by when ?

[sugg1]

no its just a letter to say the case has been struck out.

We had wrote to the court to ask what was happening with the case as we had not heard anything and knew blackhorse had to reply with a defence by the 4th january

[sugg1]

Since the last time i posted on here regarding blackhorse we have wrote to them ,but they have not replied to us seems like they are ignoring us.

Please can someone help us we don`t know what to do next

 

Thank you

Edited July 2, 2011 by sugg1
missed some words

[citizenB]

I have to be honest, sug.. I am not quite sure what help you are asking for.

 

Who took who to court and why ?

 

It would appear that despite two dates, Black horse have not appeared in court and the case has been struck out.

 

Can you please provide us with a summary of what has happened and what help you are looking for.