Southern Trains again

[infiniteseeker]

Hi everybody I recently travelled from Amberley Station to Christ's Hospital via train, I use the trains frequently and as Amberley lacks the facilities to purchase a ticket that means me running the gauntlet of having no "valid ticket for travel".

 

This occasion the train had just departed Biillingshurst and about to pull into my destination when a young man in all black came asking for tickets, i told him i had no ticket and could I buy one please, for some reason I said Pulborough to Christ's hospital, then he immediately said "OK son thats a penalty fare", or words to that effect. I immediately said there was nowhere to buy a ticket where I got on the train and he said there are facilities to buy tickets at Pulborough, I then retracted and said I got on at Amberley.

 

This made him obviously very angry and he began using aggressive speech and accusing me of such and such, what made his day was when he asked me how much money I had and I said £5 he smiled and enjoyed that that wasn't enough to buy my ticket, which was an even greater offense apparently than avoiding a fare:|

 

I wilfully obliged to give him my details though it meant I missed my stop and was sent on my way told to be expecting a letter and possible court summons.

 

Well I recently received a letter with a box asking what had occurred, i foolishly filled this all in without seeking any kind of legal advice, told them the story above and basically admitted I didn't have the money to pay for the ticket, In my letter to them I also made an offer in order to nip this in the bud and avoid any conflict, to pay twice the original ticket and admin fees in compensation to them.

 

I thought this would at least indicate to them the fact I am not trying to **** them over, I admitted I was wrong to be travelling without a ticket but basically asked them to leave the courts out of this.

 

However in response to my letter and offer to settle the dispute they have sent me a letter stating a summons has been applied for and will be forwarded to me shortly so it looks like I will have to incur the costs of magistrates court in addition to my penalty fare, this is wholly ridiculous as they are in effect trying to obtain blood from a stone..

 

I would be very grateful if anyone with experience in this could offer me any advice, in the most recent letter the "prosecuter" offered me the opportunity to write back to them with any further info I think may be relevant, does anyone think there is any chance of preventing this bull**** escapade from escalating, I am hoping that the courts will see the nonsense in trying to get money out of someone who relies upon the state to buy food?

[SRPO]

Just checked http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/amy/details.html it states:

Penalty Fares apply to journeys from Amberley station when travelling with:

 

• Southern Railway
  

 

This would suggest there are facilities on site.

The fact that you 'for some reason' said you boarded the train at a station closer to your destination (which would I imagine be a lesser fare) than you actually did means you will have to work very hard to convince anyone it was a mistake. Is the fare from Amberley to Christs Hospital more than £5.00? if so you are pretty knackered.

[Stigy]

Even if there weren't facilities at Amberley Station to buy a ticket, you only offered to pay for one when the RPI asked you to present your ticket. What would have happened if you'd alighted the train unchallenged? I would imagine you probably wouldn't have bought one. Also, the fact that you backtracked when the RPI said there were ticket issuing facilities at Pulborough would suggest that you were trying to pull a fast one in some way (is Pulborough closer to your destination than Amberley?). Them you didn't have enough money anyway, which would mean you had no intention of paying for your full rail journey, surely?

 

I'm assuming the Penalty Fare was scrapped in favour or a report to Southern by the RPI then? If you were questioned under caution and you admitted it was your intention, I'm afraid you're bang to rights. How did you intend to settle out of court with Southern, if by your own admission you are skint?

[infiniteseeker]

Lot of questions i'll try to answer them all as best i can, I basically said yes I did not have a ticket so let me pay you compensation of twice the original fare, i'm on JSA so can afford to part with around £20 I don't see why the punishment should be more than that?

 

They haven't even asked me to pay a penalty fare, just, "What have you done?" well.... "Ok your going to court", ehm

 

If a regular train attendant had come I would have purchased as much of a ticket as I could, i have found in the past regular ticket collectors have a far more humane approach, and take into account personal circumstances etc, I think the cost of a ticket from Amberley to Christ's Hospital varies depending on the time, it's around 5.90 though, I had £5 in coins maybe I should have offerred the penalty fare man my trainers or the book I was engrossed in as payment?

 

Try buying online tickets for Amberley you get this message:

Unfortunately, Amberley does not offer the facility for collecting your tickets on departure (TOD) and your departure date is too near to deliver the tickets to you.

 

There is a metal box there which swallows money called a print your own ticket device or something but it has never worked, the only purpose It has is to frustrate and entertain people on the platform when some tourist attempts to use it and ends up loosing their money haha, it's hilarious I was there one time and some old guy and his wife must have put in about £15 before they realised it was just a dead machine, you can't buy a ticket at Amberley where I boarded a train, not only that the nearest cash point is about a 6mile trek from the train station :/

 

I would imagine you probably wouldn't have bought one. Also, the fact that you backtracked when the RPI said there were ticket issuing facilities at Pulborough would suggest that you were trying to pull a fast one in some way (is Pulborough closer to your destination than Amberley?). Them you didn't have enough money anyway, which would mean you had no intention of paying for your full rail journey, surely?

 

Yeah Pulborough is one stop closer than Amberley where i got on, it goes Amb-Pul-Bil-ChrHsp, if I had got off the train of course I wouldn't have paid for a ticket, what would you expect me to go and buy one from the ticket machine go home and never use it?

 

Would love to know what basis this whole thing has in law, are they going to be asking the court to press charges on me, if so I assume they will notify me of the charges to be brought against me and I will have to defend myself?

 

I shall write back to them next week as they have misprinted my name is there anything you think i should include?

[Stigy]

Lot of questions i'll try to answer them all as best i can, I basically said yes I did not have a ticket so let me pay you compensation of twice the original fare, i'm on JSA so can afford to part with around £20 I don't see why the punishment should be more than that?

 

They haven't even asked me to pay a penalty fare, just, "What have you done?" well.... "Ok your going to court", ehm

 

If a regular train attendant had come I would have purchased as much of a ticket as I could, i have found in the past regular ticket collectors have a far more humane approach, and take into account personal circumstances etc, I think the cost of a ticket from Amberley to Christ's Hospital varies depending on the time, it's around 5.90 though, I had £5 in coins maybe I should have offerred the penalty fare man my trainers or the book I was engrossed in as payment?

 

Try buying online tickets for Amberley you get this message:

 

 

There is a metal box there which swallows money called a print your own ticket device or something but it has never worked, the only purpose It has is to frustrate and entertain people on the platform when some tourist attempts to use it and ends up loosing their money haha, it's hilarious I was there one time and some old guy and his wife must have put in about £15 before they realised it was just a dead machine, you can't buy a ticket at Amberley where I boarded a train, not only that the nearest cash point is about a 6mile trek from the train station :/

 

 

 

Yeah Pulborough is one stop closer than Amberley where i got on, it goes Amb-Pul-Bil-ChrHsp, if I had got off the train of course I wouldn't have paid for a ticket, what would you expect me to go and buy one from the ticket machine go home and never use it?

 

Would love to know what basis this whole thing has in law, are they going to be asking the court to press charges on me, if so I assume they will notify me of the charges to be brought against me and I will have to defend myself?

 

I shall write back to them next week as they have misprinted my name is there anything you think i should include?

From what you've said it would appear that you're far from remourseful. I would imagine the charge would be under 5.3(a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RRA). For a charge to be made under this legislation, intent to avoid payment would have had to have been established by the RPI when he questioned you. If charged under the byelaws it would more than likely be 18.1. Typically RRA offences carry heftier sentences as they are recordable offences. It honestly doesn't surprise me that Southern are going to continue to court if all you've offered is £20, coupled with what I would imagine was not a very sincere letter on your part. In court, although they'll only receive their costs back if (or more likely 'when' in this case I'd imagine) they prove the case, you'll more than likely have a greater fine than £20. Having said that, given your current JSA predicament, it'll be unlikely to be the standard £350 alot of people seem to get fined.

 

Of course, being recordable, it has the potential of making it on to the Police National Computer, too. Basically, you've just admitted you're a fare evader. Out of curiosity, how would you have bought your ticket in the first place, if said egular ticket collector had come round?

 

I had £5 in coins maybe I should have offerred the penalty fare man my trainers or the book I was engrossed in as payment?

 

From what I've read here from you, I'm almost getting the impression that you expect a free ride on the train...Of course, why should you have to pay for your journey?

Edited October 29, 2010 by Stigy

[infiniteseeker]

Wow that really makes you angry, get some context into your life perhaps?

I never once asked for a free ride, just a slightly reduced fare.

 

What these laws do is criminalise the poor, granted there are perhaps some people who can afford to buy a ticket who don't, and yes maybe they are guilty of a crime of sorts, (i can't see how the train company loses by people using their trains?) but the majority without tickets are people who either can't afford to or can't buy a ticket due to wider circumstances, should these people be denied a right to travel at all?

 

Not only would you see them denied a right to travel you would see them hit with impossible fines which further cripple their finances and keep them in a vicious cycle of poverty, "crime", unemployment and debt.

[Stigy]

Wow that really makes you angry, get some context into your life perhaps?

I never once asked for a free ride, just a slightly reduced fare.

 

What these laws do is criminalise the poor, granted there are perhaps some people who can afford to buy a ticket who don't, and yes maybe they are guilty of a crime of sorts, (i can't see how the train company loses by people using their trains?) but the majority without tickets are people who either can't afford to or can't buy a ticket due to wider circumstances, should these people be denied a right to travel at all?

 

Not only would you see them denied a right to travel you would see them hit with impossible fines which further cripple their finances and keep them in a vicious cycle of poverty, "crime", unemployment and debt.

I'm not meaning to appear overly harsh on you, but lets face it, all you came here for is advice on how to get out of this mess without paying much money! I don't wan't to deny the poor travel, but the Train Operating Companies have to make their money somewhere! Unfortunately, regardless of your perception of things, fare evasion is a crime. It's a vicious circle really, because you're saying how you cant afford to travel because of the high rail fares, yet it's people like you who help make the fares stay high!

 

I don't know what your personal circumstances are, but unfortunately they are irrelevat to the train company. You started this thread in the way most others start theirs, which made me want to try and help you, as you just seemed like you were caught out and intended to pay for your journey. Trouble is, the more I read, the more I realised that actually, you had no intention of paying your fare. I really can't say anything that you'll want to hear. I'm sorry. I fear it'll be the same for other members too, lets wait and see I suppose.

[infiniteseeker]

Well though you may feel I had no intention of paying my fare I did attempt to pay my fare but unfortunately had less than sufficient money for the full fare, sadly if he had come and saw me at pulborough he'd probably have said how much have you got, ok that is enough to get you as far as billingshurst, then I would have got off there and withdrew some money in order to get to Christ's hospital an hour later, as it is he caught up with me after Billingshurst and I didn't have enough to buy a ticket from Amberley to Christ's hospital.

 

I am just going to take it on the chin. thanks for your insight.

[SRPO]

I imagine your journey to Christ Hospital was an emergency & not a day trip.

[infiniteseeker]

lol try a journey home, the 20 or so mile hitchhike was a definite no!

[Wriggler7]

If I have followed this correctly, you got on a train without a ticket, or enough money to pay 'the fare'. The ticket person, not sure if he is an inspector or a conductor, asks where you got on, and you lied.

 

Not much of a defence that I can think of.

 

Just how many bites of the cherry do you want?

 

Then there seems to be an absence of remorse. Poverty is not really an argument, and I wouldn't try the old hippy routine of chanting 'property is crime'.

 

I wonder if we should ask the opinion of all the other passengers who paid their fare?

[Old-CodJA]

I absolutely agree with all the posts here from people who are trying to help you to see that you have very little chance of avoiding a conviction in this case.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to the idea that you have been hard done by either.

 

Having prosecuted such matters over many years (not on Southern) , perhaps it will help you to see this clearly from the other side as it were.

 

You got on the train at Amberley where there is a facility to buy a ticket, but didn't use it.

 

Firstly you try to convince us in your initial post that there isn’t a facility however, when it is pointed out to you that there are facilities, you make clear that you have a poor opinion of them, but admit that you knew the machine was available to use.

 

National Railway Byelaw 18 makes clear that you have an obligation to use them where available

 

Amberley to Christs Hospital standard single fare is £5.90

 

What happened when you got on the train? Did you meet your obligation by going to seek staff to pay?

 

It doesn’t seem so, but when an inspector made a spot-check and you were asked where you boarded the train, you lied.

 

You offered to pay from Pulborough. Pulborough to Christs Hospital standard single fare is £4.30.

 

You attempted to pay £1.60 less than you were obliged to pay on boarding at Amberley.

 

Now you admit to not having the means to pay the proper fare from Amberley before travelling anyway.

 

If you don’t have a ticket showing the fare has been previously paid and do not have the means with which to pay the fare due on demand, then you do not have any right to board a train with intention of making that journey.

 

Previous posters are right. You are likely to face a charge that contrary to Section 5.3.a of the Regulation of Railways Act (1889) you did travel on a railway without a ticket and with the intention to avoid paying that fare.

 

You made your intention clear when you offered a fare for a shorter journey than that which you were actually making.

 

The offence is further evidenced by the fact that you had travelled from the start without means to pay the fare due

.

[SRPO]

lol try a journey home, the 20 or so mile hitchhike was a definite no!

 

Why didnt you just buy a return ticket when you started your journey from Christs Hospital?

[infiniteseeker]

SRP0

I had stayed in Amberley a couple days as far as i'm aware you can't get an open ended return ticket or i would use that option as I often go there for at least two days.

 

 

OldCodja

Thank you ever so much for you long and well written response, I am eternally grateful as you are helping me no end in acclimatising me to some of the viewpoints and challenges that may be put before me in the coming weeks.

 

Though we perhaps share some different viewpoints on use of the Railways, and perhaps life in general (wriggler), i still feel entitled to my views as a long time and frequent user of the service, i think my views are infact more worthy as they take personal circumstance into account, something every ticket officer in my experience is trained to do.

 

To me it boils down to this: Southern Rail can cope with a loss of £2 they would never have had if I hadn't stepped on the train in the first place. I offered to pay for a ticket, when he said "no you ain't got enough" I said "well can I pay as much I have", "ehh no, I have a job, I have a uniform, I have a badge which says "inspector" on it, your going down booooooy!"

 

What would have happened if he had sold me a ticket for as much as I had? They would have still made a profit of however much the ticket came to, I would say that would have been fairly resolved, but no, they proceed further I offer them an apology and a penalty fine, still not reasonable, well I will leave for Southern to show us all what reasonable measures are the coming week or two when Southern press charges will show us all what a corporation believes to be fair practice (the most efficient and effective extraction of capital from a resource).

 

 

Old COdga I will be going to Amberley this weekend and I will be sure and confirm whether or not the "permit to travel meter" is still broken, as i feel that is a contentious issue and southern have no right using the "ticket facilities" argument to prosecute others with it being perpetually out of order.

 

Kind regards and once again many thanks one and all.

[infiniteseeker]

BY the way i would have liked to edit that post but the scripts on the page are blocking the edit function?

[sailor sam]

SRP0

I had stayed in Amberley a couple days as far as i'm aware you can't get an open ended return ticket or i would use that option as I often go there for at least two days.

 

 

OldCodja

Thank you ever so much for you long and well written response, I am eternally grateful as you are helping me no end in acclimatising me to some of the viewpoints and challenges that may be put before me in the coming weeks.

 

Though we perhaps share some different viewpoints on use of the Railways, and perhaps life in general (wriggler), i still feel entitled to my views as a long time and frequent user of the service, i think my views are infact more worthy as they take personal circumstance into account, something every ticket officer in my experience is trained to do.

 

To me it boils down to this: Southern Rail can cope with a loss of £2 they would never have had if I hadn't stepped on the train in the first place. I offered to pay for a ticket, when he said "no you ain't got enough" I said "well can I pay as much I have", "ehh no, I have a job, I have a uniform, I have a badge which says "inspector" on it, your going down booooooy!"

What would have happened if he had sold me a ticket for as much as I had? They would have still made a profit of however much the ticket came to, I would say that would have been fairly resolved, but no, they proceed further I offer them an apology and a penalty fine, still not reasonable, well I will leave for Southern to show us all what reasonable measures are the coming week or two when Southern press charges will show us all what a corporation believes to be fair practice (the most efficient and effective extraction of capital from a resource).

 

Your argument is quite frankly ridiculous. If you went into McDonald's and asked for a 'Big Mac' meal but only had enough money for the 'Big Mac' itself, do you think you would of got the whole meal? If you use a service, you agree to pay the tariff set by the operator, not what you think it should be.

 

Old COdga I will be going to Amberley this weekend and I will be sure and confirm whether or not the "permit to travel meter" is still broken, as i feel that is a contentious issue and southern have no right using the "ticket facilities" argument to prosecute others with it being perpetually out of order.

 

Kind regards and once again many thanks one and all.

 

WHY? If it had been working, you didn't have enough money to purchase the required ticket for your journey if the machine had been working anyway.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Old-CodJA]

I am perfectly happy to help anyone with advice to avoid a conviction or penalty charges etc where possible and where justified, but I agree that your arguments are ridiculous.

 

From the evidence provided by you in your posting, the inescapable fact is that when you were asked where you had travelled from and therefore when you were given an opportunity to pay the correct fare due, YOU LIED.

 

You need to recognise that and start thinking about the consequences of YOUR actions in this case.

 

That is what any Court will judge you on.

 

Your opinion of what the fare should be, or what the Rail Company should accept are wholly irrelevant.

[Stigy]

I honestly can't believe what I'm reading in this thread, Infiniteseeker. Still you seem to think that because of your financial situation, it's Southern's responsibility to provide travel facilities to you for as much as you can afford.As has been said, the ticket facilities, or lack thereof, at Amberley Rail Station are irrelevant now, as you couldn't have afforded the full fare anyway. The first paragraph of your initial post is almost one of 'the norm' whereby a traveller is caught out by the rules of the railway that they weren't aware existed, even though the onus is always on the traveller anyway. Up on reading further, it becomes apparenet that you're merely chancing your arm, and intended not to pay a penny if you could get away with it.

 

I think you're annoyed because you have been caught, and are angry at Southern's staff and Southern as a company because of this. Of course, out of curiosity, I'd be interested to find out if you admitted all of this to the RPI under questioning. To be honest, even if you didn't straight away, any good Revenue staff would be able to get the intention merely because you didn't have enough money for the single journey, through clever questioning.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

OP, I would have a long, hard rethink about your approach to this position. As thing stand the book is well and truly flying towards you!

[esmerobbo]

infiniteseeker I do hope the corporation/company/firm you work for have enough funds available for your wage this month as by your argument. they would only have to pay what they could afford.

[Grotesque]

Or the taxpayer... and right now I can't afford anything!

[RPI]

I hope they throw the book at you. it's because of people like you that most RPI's are ruthless, it's people like you that help put fares up aswel!

[SRPO]

Im guessing the OP didnt get the response he was hoping for..........

[Stigy]

Im guessing the OP didnt get the response he was hoping for..........

Maybe he expected Barrack Room Lawyers....

[Grotesque]

...but not the truth, eh