High court Bailif unreasonable fee's charged- Please advise

[Daveuk50]

Hi everyone,

I am new here so bear with me

 

I had a dispute with a supplier which was paid but the Bailiff has started charging high fee's onto the order.

 

The initial invoice was settled but they are trying to claim the following fee's on an initial debt of £1600.00

 

Judgement costs: 187.00

Execution costs : 101.75

interest to date 50.50

 

The above I am fine with but the next charge is a concern :

 

Enforcement fee's 500.14 which today has risen to 912.99 !

 

How can a Bailiff justify these charges ? The appear to be way over the top.

 

Never dealt with a Bailiff before so any help would be gratefully received.

 

I have contacted the company over 20 times by phone - they never answer their phone and a message asks you to hang up after 2 mins on hold !

 

The ignore email's and ignore written letters.

 

Can anyone suggest what to do to dispute the fee's

I understand that people have to earn a living but these charges are keeping the debt going when the original account was settled.

 

Has anyone else experienced these type of charges ?

Its basically doubled the debt and for an initial 1600 pounds this seems crazy !

Is this legal (the additional charges) ?

 

Thanks for any advise on this matter.

 

Dave

[fork-it]

Is this a bailiff or a High Court Enforcement Officer?

 

If this is a CCJ then the bailiffs fee is £45.00. that is prescrtibed by law namely the County Court Fees Order(Amended 1994) 1982

 

If its an HCEO then its a completely different set of rules. First, have a look at the court documents. It is common practice for HCEOs to exaggerate how much fees the law says you must pay, so ask for a copy of the Order for Costs - otherwise see: Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Primary&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=2&parentActiveTextDocId=1663425&activetextdocid=1663463

 

Let me know if you need an explanation on how the fee schedules in the the High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004 works

[Daveuk50]

Hi and thanks for your reply.

 

Yes it is a High Court Enforcement officer - is it ok to name the company by the way ? if ok I will post the name up.

 

I don't know how the fee structure works or how to protect myself from future visits . At the moment the initiall invoice has been paid and the agreed costs but not the bailiff fee's which is why they are coming back.

I would like to know the fee schedules so if you can post them up that would be great !

Also can they legally get away with such high fee's and with the above figures what should the costs of the Bailiff's actually be ?

I am happy to pay for costs but these seem so high its almost immoral which is why I am disputing them.

Thanks for the info in advance .

[fork-it]

The law setting the fees chargeable by a High Court Enforcement Officer (HCEO) for collecting unpaid debts is Schedule 3 of Regulation 13 of The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004 and provides 2.5% of the amount collected plus a fixed £2.50 on top.

 

Its common practice for HCEOs to charge additional fees according to a list and pretend the debtor is liable to pay them. This is not true and you simply dont have the pay them at all.

 

There is the old HCEO's chestnut of adding fees described as "misc" or "miscellaneous". He is trying to use Section 12 of Schedule 3 of the regulations which actually reads:

 

 

"For any matter not otherwise provided for, such sum as a Master, district judge or costs judge may allow upon application."

 

 

This is essentially a blank cheque clause because it enables bailiffs to load his fees ad-infinitum then pretend an application has already been made to a Master or a district judge who has allowed the costs. HCEOs tend to do this retrospectively by charging as much as they think they can get away with then leave it up to you to challenge it afterwards, which is almost impossible to reclaim once you have paid it.

 

In short, dispute it, dispute everything. Do not pay any fees above 2.5% it and its a civil dispute between you and the HCEO. Additionally, you do not have to let them into your property sop keep the chain on the door at all times and you are not obligated to speak with him or even do business with him. You cannot be "arrested" for not conceeding to an HCEO's demand: Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970. http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Primary&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=2&parentActiveTextDocId=1663425&activetextdocid=1663463

[Daveuk50]

Thanks Fork-it for all your help.

 

We have applied to the court for the cost order and are waiting for a repsonse.

In the meantime can the bailiffs force a window open if we are away from the property ?

 

We live in a secure property but concerned that they will use underhand tactics now.

 

I have also paid all the initial costs including the original court costs but NOT the bailiff fee's.

 

I have emailed a dispute to the Bailiffs but as yet no reply yet again.

 

If they come knocking shall I hand them a copy of the complaint which we emailed to their offices ?

Will this help ?

What can we do to put a final stop on this problem ?

Is it a case of taking the dispute to court or a couple of sharply written letters to their offices ?

 

The thought of them turning up with no notice is a constant concern and it would be great to stop them harassing us for fee's they cannot charge.

 

Look forward to your reply Fork-it and thank you for all your help .

[fork-it]

Thanks Fork-it for all your help.

 

We have applied to the court for the cost order and are waiting for a repsonse.

In the meantime can the bailiffs force a window open if we are away from the property ?

 

No.

 

Breaking & entering is not allowed: Section 1 of the Criminal Damage Act 1971 and its an offence for a locksmith to use his tools to interfere with the locks without permission: Section 25 of the Theft Act 1968 http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1204238

 

We live in a secure property but concerned that they will use underhand tactics now.

 

I have also paid all the initial costs including the original court costs but NOT the bailiff fee's.

 

I dont see a problem with that, but the bailiff does has a right to start a civil claim against you for his fees provided he can prove he had actually done the work giving rise to thise fees: More: (see under Crime Fraud): http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldhansrd/text/70420w0001.htm Also, bailiffs cannot lawfully levy just to recover his fees:

 

This is unverified and not on BAILII, but see: JBW Enforcement Ltd v City of Westminster, the Judge went further by saying that if payment is "tendered before seizure" that the bailiff company CANNOT issue civil proceedings against the debtor.

 

Khazanchi & Anor v Faircharm Investments Ltd & Ors [1998] EWCA Civ 471 : On 17 March 1998 Lord Justice Morritt in the High Court ruled that bailiffs having a Walking Possessions Agreement cannot remove anything whilst the debtor is absent unless it is pre-arranged by appointment and with an Order signed by a Judge. The Judge also said in his conclusion, "However it should be noted that in cases such as these there may be a sanction pursuant to Section 1 of the Criminal Damage Act l971. In other cases the provisions of Section 6 of the Criminal Law Act may apply also".

http://vlex.co.uk/vid/ur-judge-cox-52584219

 

 

 

I have emailed a dispute to the Bailiffs but as yet no reply yet again.

 

You probably wont get one. You dont need to take any further action.

 

If they come knocking shall I hand them a copy of the complaint which we emailed to their offices ?

 

No, just keep the door locked shut and ask them to leave quietly. The bailiff will eventually get over it and move on.

[Daveuk50]

I have just spoken with the county court and they have stated that an order for costs was not applied for or issued !

 

So what does that actually mean ?

 

Do I just pay the bailiffs the 2.5% and inform them that that is all they will get ?

 

Thanks for all the help.

[fork-it]

I have just spoken with the county court and they have stated that an order for costs was not applied for or issued !

 

So what does that actually mean ?

 

It means there is no order for costs made against you.

 

If a bailiff says he has while there isnt, then he commits an offence under Section 40(1)(6) of the Administration of Justice Act 1971 and you have a right to make a complaint to police giving the bailiffs document in evidence. http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Primary&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=2&parentActiveTextDocId=1663425&activetextdocid=1663463

 

Do I just pay the bailiffs the 2.5% and inform them that that is all they will get ?

 

Yes, unless you are able to pay the creditor direct without the fee.

[Daveuk50]

Forgive my lack of knowledge on this but as the court states there was no application for costs how can the Bailiffs legally justify a fee for 'enforcement' of £900 on an initial £1,600 invoice?

 

Can we actually now complain about this conduct and why are these tactics not outlawed ?

How many other people are distressed with these bullyboy tactics ?

 

I cannot understand how these people get away with this ?

[fork-it]

Forgive my lack of knowledge on this but as the court states there was no application for costs how can the Bailiffs legally justify a fee for 'enforcement' of £900 on an initial £1,600 invoice?

 

Unless the bailiff can show he has spent £900 on enforcing the payment of your debt, (e.g. by hiring a tow truck and lifing a car of yours and transporting it to an auction house) he is making a false representaion to obtain £900 from you. He hopes you are not informed of the law and that you will pay just to get him off your back.

 

Can we actually now complain about this conduct and why are these tactics not outlawed ?

 

It is illegal, but police dont like arresting bailiffs for fee fraud so they like to call it a civil matter. This very subject was raised in the House of Lords and the government confirmed that bailiff crime is NOT a civil matter and you DO have a right to make a complaint to police: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldhansrd/text/70420w0001.htm see under Crime Fraud

 

How many other people are distressed with these bullyboy tactics ?

 

Probably thousands, many are silent, some are lucky and get all their money back. Its akin to the old bank charges reclaims revolution we saw back in 2006, there are plenty of cases where bailiffs fees can be recovered, its just that they either, dont know where to start, or are happy to let them get away with it.

 

 

I cannot understand how these people get away with this ?

 

Because the police to intentionally disregard reports of bailiff crime and dismiss them as a civil matter - even if that in itself commits an offence of Perverting the Course of Justice: Section 5 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1186125 and they too, hope you will go away.

[Daveuk50]

Its interesting in one way to experience this situation.

 

Since we have filed a concern about the Bailiffs conduct they have gone quiet.

 

We have contacted the court and this was the response today...

 

'The costs would have been included as per the Judgment in Default issued on ' x 'June 2010. However, as there has been a Writ issued on this case then further costs would have been added for this enforcement method being used.'

 

so far to confirm we have paid all outstanding balance including the official court costs but are refusing to pay the bailiff fee's until we receive in writing an explanation.

 

Even the court staff admit the bailiff fee's are ridiculous !

 

So as it stands the case has been paid in full but no payment to bailiffs fee's.

Can they still come to the property and remove the car if its on the drive / road ?

 

Or do we have to come to an agreement in writing with the bailiffs for their fee's ?

 

Thanks for all the advice.

 

Dave

[fork-it]

'The costs would have been included as per the Judgment in Default issued on ' x 'June 2010. However, as there has been a Writ issued on this case then further costs would have been added for this enforcement method being used.'

 

If HCEO then its 2.5% of the debt plus £2.50 fixed fee. No levies ort goods moved then all other fees £0.00. There are no statutory 'admin' fees for HCEO's/

 

 

Even the court staff admit the bailiff fee's are ridiculous !

 

Court staff are not supposed to comment, so the fees must have been very high to attain a comment like that.

 

So as it stands the case has been paid in full but no payment to bailiffs fee's.

 

Case is closed and settled.

 

Can they still come to the property and remove the car if its on the drive / road ?

 

No. there is no debt payable.

 

Or do we have to come to an agreement in writing with the bailiffs for their fee's ?

 

Its now a civil dispute between you and the bailiff.

[Daveuk50]

We have just been informed by the courts that the Bailiff (Marston) are private Bailiffs and not Court Bailiffs - What does this mean ? And what rights do they have that are different to Court Bailiffs ?

 

Many Thanks

[Daveuk50]

Update

 

Marstons are stating that a law dated 2004 justifies their charges !

They actually think they can get away with these ridiculous charges.

What is this 2004 they are using as I am aware only a fee of 2.5% can be levied and not 40% plus ..

What do you guys think about this ?

 

Cheers !

[Daveuk50]

Update

 

Marstons are stating that a law dated 2004 justifies their charges !

They actually think they can get away with these ridiculous charges.

What is this 2004 they are using as I am aware only a fee of 2.5% can be levied and not 40% plus ..

What do you guys think about this ?

 

Cheers !

[ploddertom]

What you need from Marstons is a complete breakdown of the charges they have applied and at what stage each was done. If you were attended as an individual rather than a Ltd Company then a simple SAR should reveal all this. The majority of the fees you will find will come under the Misc category, some are evn applied before the Officer even leaves the office. If you do send a SAR then make sure you include a line that states the £10 fee is not to be used for any other purpose - many have a habit of overlooking this. When posting make sure you send by a trackable means - Signed For - look up any PO Box No. for a proper address.

 

PT