Arrows & HSBC credit Card 'debt'

[surfhair]

Hi Guys I hope I have placed this thread in the right area. I was wondering if someone could give me some advice.

Several years ago I ran up a credit card debt with the HSBC of £4,000 after paying £90 interest for months on end I finally yielded and defaulted on the debt, I went to my local CAB and agreed a token payment of £1 per month.

After several months the HSBC sold my debt to Rockwell debt collection and I received a letter from them acting on behalf of phoenix recoveries demanding payment of the £4,000 within 7 days, stating that phoenix recoveries acting in the name of Tessera recoveries as assignee of the HSBC bank and all HSBC’s rights in, to and under the above account, and that under the terms of defined in the data protection act 1998 we are now the data controller of your personal data contained in the records of this account (HSBC), they also phoned and spoke to me, when I told them I couldn't pay the guy asked could I take the money off another credit card to pay them I didn't think this was right so I went to my local CAB and they negotiated the same deal that I had with the HSBC of £1 per month.

I’ve been keeping to the deal but last month they again sent me a letter (after leaving about 12 phone messages) stating I had to pay the full £4,000 within 7 days, a family member offered me a loan of £800 to offer them as a token payment under the proviso that should they accept the debt would be wiped, they replied by letter stating that this offer was unacceptable as was the offer pre existing offer of £1 per month, and that they would accept £3,000 to clear the debt and that if I could not pay this or come back with a better payment option they would pass my account over to their litigation department, what does this mean ? My other question is could I still challenge this debt as being unenforceable as when I asked for proof that I owe them the money they said that my past payments, and telephone contact is my acknowledgment and acceptance of this debt.

Also I do not want to be forced into bankruptcy as I still owe 11,000 on a student loan and while I am unemployed at the moment I am making good on several repayments I owe to other companies however I don’t have any money to offer Rockwell I wonder what they can do to me as I have no assets and live with my parents could they force me into banruptcy ? could anyone give me any advice it would be very much appreciated. Thankyou for your time.

[saintly_1]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

I will move your post to to the DCA forum where it will receive a better response

 

saintly_1

site team

[rebel11]

I've just moved it.

[rebel11]

Hi Surf

 

Have you got any Penalty Charges or have you been mis-sold PPI on any of your credit cards? You can claim these back with contractual interest.

You can claim back for 6 years plus.

[surfhair]

Hi Guys thanks for moving the thread for me, I never had PPI as they (the HSBC) gave me the credit card when I Started university I think I may have had a few late payment fees as charges but don't have the statements to prove this.

[rebel11]

Hi Surf

 

If you send HSBC a SAR Request with £10 they will send you all the data they have on the account, that includes statements over the last 6 years. They have 40 days to respond. All templates and speadsheets can be found on this site. If you've got Credit Card

charges you have a dispute with HSBC. Templates and Spreadsheets are in the library.

[firstship]

Surfhair...............as I read your thread do I understand that Phoenix Recoveries/Tessera have purchased the debt from HSBC?????????If this is the case I assume this information comes from ROCKWELL AND NOT PHOENIX...if this the situation ,why would you take Rockwells say so that they are acting for Phoenix and why would you pay Rockwell any money without Phoenix providing a Notice of Assignment first.and confirmation from them that they have given Rockwell the authority to act on their behalf......I ask this question as I have been down the Phoenix route with another DCA,and did no give in until the DCA complied,in the end they got so fed up it was written of.I do not think it unreasonable to take this approach....................FS

[PGH7447]

more to the point did you ever cca Crockwell if you do that it will stop them in their tracks for a while, make em produce an agreement

[PGH7447]

Phoenix; rockwell; tessera are all the same group just using different names to confuse - they tend to start with Crockwell and then either drop it or move onto another part of thier mini empire

[surfhair]

First of all thank you all for your help, the letter I received from (the HSBC) when they purchased the debt stated that the above account (HSBC) has been assigned to Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Acting in the name and on behalf of Tessera Recoveries and that phonenix recoveries have appointed Rockwell collection agency to manage my account. Rockwell sent more or less the same letter word for word except they said the full amount of £4,000 was now due and that and that under the terms of defined in the data protection act 1998 we are now the data controller of your personal data contained in the records of this account (HSBC) I was unsure what that actually meant as I am uneducated in such issues The most recent letter which was from Rockwell stated that their clients Phoenix recoveries Uk ltd SARL have confirmed they are not prepared to continue with the current situation, the payments I have been making have been to Rockwell I did ask in my letter to them could you please provide me with a copy (proof) that you now own the debt that was previously held by the HSBC (I wish I had asked this when they first claimed the debt) they replied back stating "your past payments, and telephone contact is your acknowledgment and acceptance of this debt. I never CCA rockwell or phonenix all the contact I have had has been with rockwell the telephone conversation they mentioned took place a while ago with quite an aggressive guy the first time he phoned he was telling me I had to pay and asking could I borrow the money to pay them or take it off another credit card he said he was phoning on behalf of rockwell. Would it be worth me CCA them now or has that ship sailed

thanks again for your help

[surfhair]

Hi guys i am going to take you advise and send them a CCA right away can anyone give me any more advise

[firstship]

Hi.............CCA1974 s77/78 request £1 postal order send recorded to Rockwell,they have 12 working days to provide an agreement,the letter is in the Cag file library of templates..............good luck tell us the result...............FS

[surfhair]

Thanks guys i'll let you know when they reply.

[PGH7447]

"your past payments, and telephone contact is your acknowledgment and acceptance of this debt. "

This statement is basically true but that does not stop you from requesting a cca nor does it allow them to not supply it, noe does it stop you from stopping the payments if they do not

[surfhair]

Hi guys thanks for your help so far Rockwell have replied to me with this letter,

We note your request for a copy of the original agreement quoting section 77-79 of the consumer credit act 1974. Unfortunately the agreement is no longer available. We are therefore unable to comply fully with your request however we enclose a statement of the account showing payments made to us since agreement. Notwithstanding this loan remains valid and we except you to meet your obligations under the agreement.

We acknowledge the fact that until we comply with our obligation to send you a copy of your credit agreement pursuant to S.77 (1) of the consumer credit act 1974 (CCA) we can not enforce your credit agreement through the courts. This is not in dispute

Whilst we are unable to take legal action to enforce the loan this does not affect the validity of the underlying debt. Section 77(4)of the CCA does not make the agreement void, therefore as the debt still exists we are entitled to carry out any actions that do not amount to enforcing the agreement including demanding payment, charging interest, transferring the debt to a third party, Registering the debt with a credit reference agency and issuing a default notice. This was upheld in the recent case of MCGuffick V Royal Bank of Scotland plc. We therefore reserve our right to register any default with the credit reference agency.

In respect of any claim that this debt is in “dispute”, we agree that the agreement is unenforceable in a court of law as explained above however we can prove that the money lent to you has not been repaid to date and therefore neither of these facts are in dispute and we consider this matter resolved. Please therefore continue with your payments towards the account.

Were do I stand on this as the letter they sent my last week stated the £1 payments were no longer acceptable and that they will take litigation if I don’t pay, also why are they referring the money owed as a loan when it was a credit card with the HSBC should I continue paying a £1 any help would be really appricated as I don’t really know what to do at this point.

[firstship]

They are contradicting themselves and also giving mis-information,they admit no agreement and they say they cannot take you to court and then threaten you with court action,IMO,State you do not acknowledge any debt as the agreement that underpins the account does not exist, by your own admission----- go on paying them £1 and make it very clear this payment is a gesture of goodwill whilst they Rockwell return the disputed account back to HSBC as they are well aware whilst an account is in dispute the Original Creditor should not sell or employ a 3rd party to try to enforce any debt.......................I would also leave the loan/credit card mixup as is,could be useful at a later date......I am sure you will also receive additional/alternative Caggers views..good luck...............FS

[DonkeyB]

Well, they’re stuffed. You can, effectively, stop paying, with impunity.

 

They cannot, by their own admission, take you to court. It is, at present, unenforceable.

 

Yes, they can record a default, but they can ONLY continue to enforce the original default issued by the bank. They cannot issue a new one. The default will drop off your credit record 6 years after it was issued. You may want to check they are complying with this via your credit record.

 

They are also being economic with the truth about the assignment. Phoenix is a Luxembourg-based special vehicle of CarVal Investors, and Rockwell is merely a DCA collecting on its behalf. Phoenix should be the data controller in this instance (or its division, Tessera – there is a sub-division of Phoenix called Tessera, as well as a part of Rockwell called Tessera. I believe this is designed to deliberately confuse people).

 

So, once again, a DCA has lost its client money by being greedy when a payment agreement (albeit small) was in place. Knobs.

[DonkeyB]

Oh, and as they have not complied with your CCA request, make sure you get your £1 back.

[PGH7447]

shot themselves in the foot, stop all payments and wait 6 years for it to become stat barred and drop of your file

[surfhair]

Thanks guys for all help I really appreciate it and will be making a small donation to the site for the help I’ve had.

I hope you guys could give a little more advice in that if I follow the advice given by DonkeyB and PGH7447 should I write to Rockwell and tell them I will no longer be making any payments and that I want them to enforce the original default issued and if doing this should I be worried about the case of MCguffick v RBS that they quoted at me or should I just do nothing and simply stop paying the pound and have no further contact with them, also if I could ask firstship why he thinks it would be best for me to continue paying the £1 thanks guys.

[DonkeyB]

They can quote McGuffick all they want – they can recreate an agreement, but not for enforcement. As they have admitted.

[PGH7447]

You can do the right thing and pay em a £1 a month if you want or you could do what you want and and not pay em, the ball is firmly in your court now, and they should be grateful for any crumbs you throw them

[firstship]

Hi...........PGH has answered the question If it was me I would pay £1 per month but you do not have to just stop paying,this is a decision for you to make................FS

[surfhair]

Hi Guys I’ve spent a week thinking over my decision and have decided I am not going to continue paying the £1 in part as they have told me more than once that this is no longer acceptable and "that they are not prepared to continue accepting £1 per month". Do I need to send them a letter informing them of this or should I just take no further action and wait for them to send me another letter.

Thank you kindly for all your outstanding Help.

[firstship]

No further action,they will write to you I am sure at some stage in future,or it will find its way to another DCA...............all the best...FS