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5 PCN's in one week - help


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hey guys,

 

If anyone can help.

 

I'm typing this on behalf of someone who's a taxi driver and is pretty much as clueless as me when it comes to this.

 

they've received 5 PCN's in the space of one week by post -- 4 arriving on the same day.

They all relate 'being in a bus lane (during the hours of operation of the bus lane' and all have taken place on the same street.

 

The initial PCN that was received mentions the the date PCN as 13/10/2010 but the letter wasn't posted until the 19/10/2010 and received by post on the 20/10/2010. Near a week has gone in that regard.

 

Is there anything that can be done? Honestly. it's a lot of money for them.

 

thanks for any help

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thank you peeps for the responses!

 

lol, green_and_mean. here's the first letter sent with the personal info edited. This arrived on the 20/10/2010

 

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy75/functions1/PCN1Edit.jpg

 

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy75/functions1/PCN1ProofEdir.jpg

 

the taxi is a private hire. Should I upload all others? they're similarly formatted

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http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/8450473.New_bus_lane_cameras_rake_in___500_000_fines_in_three_weeks/?action=complain&cid=8852651

 

Seems like a few people have been caught!!

 

PHV are not permitted only hackney carriages (taxis not mini cabs). I remember looking at the location when I first read the article and thinking the signage was a bit iffy so I'll have another look and see if there is grounds to appeal.

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The PCNs look to be invalid http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/2757/regulation/8/made states that the discount runs from date of service (when it arrives), the PCN states it runs from the date of notice (posting). It also states that if you don't pay they WILL issue a charge certificate notice, it should say MAY issue one. There may be more errors but you have missed out the second page. These look winable your friend could be VERY popular amongst local mini cab drivers!!

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Oops, I didn't include the overleaf bit as I assumed it wasn't really important (was that silly me?). Here it is uploaded anyhow: http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy75/functions1/PCNoverleaf.jpg

 

How strong is this looking though? Has anyone ever won on these grounds? Reading a little from other threads, I'm guessing I'll wait till near the end of the 14 day period to appeal?

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Oops, I didn't include the overleaf bit as I assumed it wasn't really important (was that silly me?). Here it is uploaded anyhow: http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy75/functions1/PCNoverleaf.jpg

 

How strong is this looking though? Has anyone ever won on these grounds? Reading a little from other threads, I'm guessing I'll wait till near the end of the 14 day period to appeal?

 

I'm pretty confident and with 5 PCNs and the possibility of more you have nothing to lose, I'd say you have a 90% chance of winning.

 

Dear Sir,

I'd like to appeal against PCNs xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx (insert no.s) on the grounds that the Penalty Charge is higher than applicable in the case due to an invalid PCN notice in each case listed.

The Bus Lane Contraventions Regulations 2005 clearly states the 14 day discount period runs from the date of service, the notice served states that the discount runs from the date of notice. This unlawfully shortens the discount period by 2 days invalidating the PCN.

The regulations also state that the PCN must state that if no representations or payment are made before the end of the 28 day period a charge certificate MAY be issued, however the notice served states that a charged certificate WILL be served which is not correct and invalidates the notice.

Under the representations section the PCN states that one of the statutary grounds is: the alledged contravention is subject to criminal procedings or a fixed penalty notice as defined by the section 52 of the Road Traffic Offences Act 1988. There is no such act, fixed penalty notices are issued as definded by the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988. The notice fails to correctly state the statutary grounds for representations, invalidating the notice.

I therefore request the invalid notices are cancelled at the earliest opportunity.

 

Your faithfully

 

Mr A Cabbie esq.

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Oops, I didn't include the overleaf bit as I assumed it wasn't really important (was that silly me?). Here it is uploaded anyhow: http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy75/functions1/PCNoverleaf.jpg

 

How strong is this looking though? Has anyone ever won on these grounds? Reading a little from other threads, I'm guessing I'll wait till near the end of the 14 day period to appeal?

 

Appeal ASAP using the letter above, the grounds are good and you can be the first to win in Bradford. If you win stick it in the paper there will be a lot of people looking for refunds!!

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oh wow, thanks ever so much green_and_[not_quite_so]mean!

 

Bit confused on the first bit:

 

'I'd like to appeal against PCNs xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx (insert no.s) on the grounds that the Penalty Charge is higher than applicable in the case due to an invalid PCN notice in each case listed.'

 

Sorry for being a dunce but what do you mean by that?

 

Do you think it's worth me mentioning about the first one arriving near a week late. I've been provided with the envelope that clearly proves it too or is that irrelevant in comparison to the other points?

 

lol..I'm going to get on this straight away. first time for me and the person involved. I'll keep you all updated!

 

ta again

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There are set statutary grounds such as you didn't drive in the bus lane, the applicable grounds in this case is as stated. The PCN is invalid so the charge should be zero, not £100. Bus Lane grounds are a bit odd so its the best suited from the list, they are meant to accept any other applicable reason anyway so it doesn't really matter.

You can also add if you want that the PCN states two locations, from google maps bridge st and market st are two different bus lanes if this is true then it should state one or the other not both.

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7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

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the driver doesn't want to lose the chance at the discounted rate if the informal appeal in rejected

 

here's what I thought they could do:

 

await a response for the appeal letter already sent (thanks once again to green and mean for that!)

 

if they reject, pay at the discounted rate within the (further) 14 days provided and then take it to an adjudicator in the hopes of getting a refund.

 

what do you think? would that work?

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if they reject, pay at the discounted rate within the (further) 14 days provided and then take it to an adjudicator in the hopes of getting a refund.

 

what do you think? would that work?

 

No, the system does not allow that. The system only allows challenge and pay if defeated. Or pay and be done with it.

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Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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If he is that worried just send the same letter again with the new PCN details or you may want to wait a day or so to see if there are any more. There is a good chance of winning I know I'm correct and Bradford is new at this and probably has less experience of cctv legislation than I do, lol. The fact that they are even ticketing the Police in marked cars shows they have not got a clue.

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If this is still the same its not correctly signed either..

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Market+St,+Bradford,+West+Yorkshire+BD1,+United+Kingdom&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=16.785206,46.362305&ie=UTF8&cd=4&geocode=FYzRNAMdkD_l_w&split=0&hq=&hnear=Market+St,+Bradford,+West+Yorkshire+BD1,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.793338,-1.753607&spn=0,0.022638&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.793277,-1.753476&panoid=FpIbNa8HNl7R9tKMEujgdg&cbp=12,104.44,,0,5

 

there is an advance no left turn except buses but nothing at the junction which I do not think is correct.

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Market+St,+Bradford,+West+Yorkshire+BD1,+United+Kingdom&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=16.785206,46.362305&ie=UTF8&cd=4&geocode=FYzRNAMdkD_l_w&split=0&hq=&hnear=Market+St,+Bradford,+West+Yorkshire+BD1,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.793122,-1.75307&spn=0,0.022638&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.793061,-1.752952&panoid=zVpU6-6p8etpg5Ld6hBQPg&cbp=12,104.44,,0,5

 

The 'no entry' sign on the left is also unlawful since it is in the wrong place it is a sign that provides a restriction where its placed, where as here it means past the traffic lights.

 

The cycle lane at the left turn is also a joke as the first sign says cycle lane turn left, yet at the lights the sign says no left turn, so cycles cannot use the lane without contravening the sign.

 

This all shows that with a proper on site examination the signage is most likely non compliant and confusing for the entire scheme.

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thank you all so much for the responses!

 

been incredibly busy of late. so anyway I've decided to wait a while before sending off the latest appeal letter in case anymore come slurking.

 

thanks again for the advice/info/help

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Couple of observations on this (and i know i'm going to regret this!), the signs at the start of the bus lane are there according to this; http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Market+Street,+Bradford+BD1&sll=53.791411,-1.753006&sspn=0.006401,0.022638&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Market+St,+Bradford,+West+Yorkshire+BD1,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.79311,-1.753049&spn=0,0.022638&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.792927,-1.752637&panoid=gFrjM0IGrfcr-9_83UIULg&cbp=12,131.27,,0,3.38

 

I also note that the word 'taxis' is missing from the blue signs. As they stand, it allows buses and cycles to use the lane ONLY. Not sure how the cycle lane 'no entry' sign is relevant but it should state 'except cycles' on the sign. Not that many cyclists take notice of traffic signs anyway!

 

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The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

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Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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Couple of observations on this (and i know i'm going to regret this!), the signs at the start of the bus lane are there according to this; http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Market+Street,+Bradford+BD1&sll=53.791411,-1.753006&sspn=0.006401,0.022638&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Market+St,+Bradford,+West+Yorkshire+BD1,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.79311,-1.753049&spn=0,0.022638&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.792927,-1.752637&panoid=gFrjM0IGrfcr-9_83UIULg&cbp=12,131.27,,0,3.38

 

I also note that the word 'taxis' is missing from the blue signs. As they stand, it allows buses and cycles to use the lane ONLY. Not sure how the cycle lane 'no entry' sign is relevant but it should state 'except cycles' on the sign. Not that many cyclists take notice of traffic signs anyway!

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

There is more than one bus lane but the one you have shown is non compliant due to the left hand sign being no where near the left hand kerb (the bus is actually driving on the footway for some strange reason) as the edge of the carriageway is denoted by the DYL and the right hand sign has an unlawful combination of a no entry sign and buses only sign it should be one or the other.

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  • 4 weeks later...

hey guys,

 

got an update.

 

letter receieved today about the multiple PCN's issued requesting us to contact them to 'review the situation' even if a payment was made. their appeals procedure has been reviewed to consider the fact that 'offending motorists incurred multiple PCN's before receiving their first notification'.

 

'If you re-offended prior to receiving notification of your first offence, the Council may be able to cancel, or refund payment of the Penalty Charge'.

 

shall i go ahead and do that? if i'm not mistaken, it's looking good?

Edited by functions
included extra info
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