Mistake made by a dealer - Paid much less than the asking price ** Court Papers Received **

[stroke a badger]

Guys,

 

Your thoughts please - should i do the honest thing?

 

Today, my wife and i viewed a car and negotiated a price taking into consideration some work which needed doing which both myself and the garage owner agreed to be fare. The owner of the garage had to leave the garage at that point and left us with mis colleague who i believe is his son. When it came to completing the paperwork and paying I noticed he had put the price down on the invoice as being £1,000 LESS than the price implied. At no point was an exact figure agreed it was just that £XXX would be taken off to cover the cost of repairs. Naturally we didn't say anything, signed here and there and paid pretty much 50% cash and the rest by debit card. We jumped in the car sat there for 10-15 minutes sorting a couple of things out then drove off and could not believe our luck.

 

On the 290 mile 4 hour drive home both the owner and the gent who completed the sale left 28 voice mail messages asking me to phone them urgently as a mistake had been made and that it was in my best interest to do the right thing, which of course is to pay the £1,000 missed off the sales Invoice.

 

What should I do

1 - Do I do the honest thing and pay the £1,000 in the knowledge that my action will earn me massive Karma points

2 - Say on your bike - your mistake, deal with it

3 - Initially say On your bike but then offer to pay £500 as a "gesture of goodwill" by cheque.

 

Another thing which worries me is that part of the transaction was made by Debit card and I'm concerned they will try and make another transaction be made with out the consent of my wife but as they don't have the three digit security i'm not even sure this is possible.

 

I get the impression this isn't going to go away over night and i assume they are going to threaten me with various acts to force me to pay BUT which, and this may make me sound like a complete donkey I would rather not do.

 

What do think i should do - have i done anything wrong?

[stroke a badger]

Any thoughts?

[scaniaman]

What warranty, if any, did the transaction attract? IE. Warranty on the car.

[fro]

So you are saying the £XXX agreed was not £1000 but he gave you up to a thousand pounds off or was it £1000 + £XXX off.

 

very tricky situation - I will try option 2 offer them half and if that doesn't work after a few days you can offer to spread the rest of the payment.

[sailor sam]

If the 'paper work' is a sales invoice bearing the purchase price on it and you have paid that amount, then there is not much they can do about it legally so option '2' is likely to be available to you. As for taking more money from your debit card, I don't think they can without the security number although you could contact your bank and advise them that any further requests for payment from this retailer are without your consent.

 

However, should you have any problems with the car, the seller is not going to be enthusiastic in helping you although you would still have the SOGA on your side. I think that is why scaniaman is asking about the warranty.

 

Personally, if its a good car and you were happy with the service ect, I would go for option '1' which is what you appear to have agreed. I would stipulate though, that I will expect decent after sales care should it be necessary.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[stroke a badger]

Quick Update,

 

Court papers received today from the Car Dealer for £1,000+ and what is interesting is that the Sales invoice they have included with thier POC has had the sale price increased by £1,000 and my signature has been forged.

 

This is going to be fun!

[squishyrob]

initially id have been tempted to offer half as a gesture of goodwill as im almost certain that the invoice is in essence the same as a receipt i.e. a legally binding contract for the sale of goods. sounds like they have done something very stupid by falsifying that 'legal document' and especially your signature as that is a criminal offence. id now suggest you stick two fingers up to them!

[sailor sam]

OOOH! Do keep us posted!

[stroke a badger]

Right,

 

Not had much time to look at this due to two deaths in the family but managed to find a couple of hours last night to read the Defendants POC and I am concerned.

 

The crux of their claim is that the price recorded on the sales invoice was recorded in error and on the basis of a unilateral mistake being made the contract is null and void as a result they are claiming a figure of £1,000 which is the difference.

 

After returning home and to stop the barrage of calls I sent the owner of the garage a short yet sweet email and may have shot myself in the foot. In the email I said “I appreciate that the person who processed the transaction allegedly made a mistake and put the incorrect amount on the invoice but i do not see how or why i should be held responsible for their mistake” The Claimant has quoted this in their POC and is claiming this as an admission that a mistake was made.

 

The Claimant states that I was aware of the price of the Vehicle at all times and agreed to pay the price advertised on Autotrader and ebay. I was aware what the price was approximately, but not the exact price. I had arranged to view 9 cars that weekend in the price range of £3,500 - £5,000 and at no point did we agree a price for the car just that a certain amount would be deducted off the end amount for the cost of paint work correction. I was also picked up in the car, no “A” board was present advertising the price nor was it written anyway on the car. The Claimant has included copies of the adverts.

 

The Claimant has included with their POC a copy of the sales invoice but the Net Price, Total cash price and balance due have corrected to reflect a figure uplifted by £1,000. When I say corrected I mean overwritten in pen!

 

There is also the issue of the warranty which is detailed here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?286202-Breach-of-Contract-by-Car-Dealer-Refusing-to-submit-Warranty-application-to-3rd-Party&highlight==

 

I have just over two weeks to file a defence and would appreciate any help with content for my POC.

[sailor sam]

Have you still got your copy of the sales invoice?

[stroke a badger]

I have yes.

[sailor sam]

Should be pretty striaght forward I would of thought then. The judge will find it very interesting that your copy and the claimant's copy show different figures and that your signature has been forged. The invoice is what matters, not the fact what was in the advert or on the screen. The basis of your defence will be that you paid the price on the invoice as the car required some work done and there had been negotiations in the price from what had been advertised. I would limit it to that personally. You should point out that the invoice that the claimant has included in his POC has been altered thus it differs from your copy (By the way, I hope your copy has not been altered in any way) and you do not believe that the signature on it is yours.

 

While I think this is pretty much a win for you, I still would of dealt with this differently (as per my post # 5)

[Surfer01]

I think they are chancing their luck becasue they know that if it goes in front of a judge with a forged signatrue there will be some serious consequences bordering on theft by false pretences which is a criminal offence. I would say that their case is probably very weak. Your defence would be your paperwork and their original invoice.

[crem]

“I appreciate that the person who processed the transaction allegedly made a mistake and put the incorrect amount on the invoice but i do not see how or why i should be held responsible for their mistake” The Claimant has quoted this in their POC and is claiming this as an admission that a mistake was made.

 

If your quote above is taken directly from your e-mail, then I fail to see how they can use this as your agreement that the price should be corrected. You state "...the person allegedly made a mistake...." i.e. you do not admit or agree a mistake on the price was made. And you further state "...why should I be held responsible...." i.e. even if the price was wrong, that is not your fault, and you paid the price as per the invoice.

 

I am with sailor sam on this I think. They appear to be risking going to court with an agreement that they know contains a forged signature. I think that will be very brave of them!

[stroke a badger]

This evening i've had another look at the signature and i'm not sure now if it is forged but instead a very bad photocopy. The rest of the invoice is exactly the same as the copy I have apart from the corrections made to the sale price.

[heliosuk]

I've been watching this for a while now.

Just playing devils advocate, I'm pretty sure there is relatively recent case law on this with very similar circumstances apart from the "forged document" scenario here, which set a precedent. I think it was based on something that was sold obviously well under price, possibly a fancy TV or something and from memory it was ruled that the buyer must have known something was wrong because of the actual price paid. You freely admit this in your original post. Further what if they can show phone records that they continually tried to call you on your way home?

 

What would happen if they withdrew the invoicing evidence?

 

Personaly, if it was me in your situation I'd run this past a solicitor first. I think a quick freebie consultation or even a fixed fee would put your mind at rest. It does seem a bit absurbed that they should resort to doing this as they had a better case without doing what they have done and I reckon when you file the defence they will take legal advice.

 

Sailors usual spot on advice perhaps should have been taken in #5?????

[stroke a badger]

(By the way, I hope your copy has not been altered in any way) and you do not believe that the signature on it is yours. While I think this is pretty much a win for you, I still would of dealt with this differently (as per my post # 5)

 

The copy I have is the top copy written in blue ink and is the same as the bad photocopy the Claimant has provided in their POC. The only differences are that on copy they have provided the amount paid is broken down into cash and Debit card on the bottom right hand corner, the sale value has been increased by £1,000 (and crudely at that) and there are random marks all over it like it has been under carbon paper.

 

I made a verbal offer to meet the dealer halfway by offering him £500 if he honoured the warranty but he point blankly refused, well that is the polite way of putting it!

[heliosuk]

The copy I have is the top copy written in blue ink and is the same as the bad photocopy the Claimant has provided in their POC. The only differences are that on copy they have provided the amount paid is broken down into cash and Debit card on the bottom right hand corner, the sale value has been increased by £1,000 (and crudely at that) and there are random marks all over it like it has been under carbon paper.

 

I made a verbal offer to meet the dealer halfway by offering him £500 if he honoured the warranty but he point blankly refused, well that is the polite way of putting it!

 

That's an easy one for them to defend especially with carbon paper.

 

If they bring up your verbal offer it's an admission that you knew the price was wrong. Any DJ will not take into account how he put it across. The fact remains you knew of the error, they reacted very, very quickly to it. In my mind I would seriously get advice on this one as if they withdraw that signature evidence I think you could be out on a limb.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't have tried though!!

[sailor sam]

That's an easy one for them to defend especially with carbon paper.

 

If they bring up your verbal offer it's an admission that you knew the price was wrong. Any DJ will not take into account how he put it across. The fact remains you knew of the error, they reacted very, very quickly to it. In my mind I would seriously get advice on this one as if they withdraw that signature evidence I think you could be out on a limb.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't have tried though!!

 

Thanks for your earlier comments Helio. The cliamant has apparently allready submitted the 'amended' invoice as part of his POC so i'm not sure how he could withddraw it. In any event, the OP has the orginal top copy which will be the most important peice of evidence in the case. Personally I think that the claim will fold before any verbal evidence is heard because of the 'amendments'. I take your point about the OP being aware of the error and as I said in post #5, I would have dealt with it differently. However, there appears to have been some negotiation in the original purchase price due to some pre-delivery work being needed. This could explain why the price on the invoice differs from any advertising for the car. The OP should limit his defence to that point and certainly not mention that he was fully aware of the mistake in court unless asked specifically. But as I say, I doubt the DJ will be impressed enough to hear the claimant's verbal evidence having seen the amended invoice and 'forged' signature. I don't think it would do the OP any harm to take face to face proffesional advice however but I do think the dealer has obviously not done the same as he has probably well and truly shot himself in the foot by altering what is in effect a legal contract of sale.

[Surfer01]

The one case was probably about a brand new item whereas thsi is about a second hand item and as we all know with cars the dealer loads the price so was probably £1000 more than if a private sale or trade in price so one could argue that even at a £1000 less than previously agreed it was a reasonable expectation to pay that price.

[crem]

While the OP may be accepting that his signature has not necessarily been forged, IMO the document itself will be considered as a forgery as it was altered after the OP signed it to contain different information.

 

Whether the claimant had submitted the invoice as part of his POC, I would have thought it is the first document the judge would ask for. i.e. surely to demonstrate that the OP owed him money, he needs to show the judge what price was agreed compared to what price was paid. I think that is as far as the case will get when the OP also presents his, unaltered, version of the invoice.

[Surfer01]

While the OP may be accepting that his signature has not necessarily been forged, IMO the document itself will be considered as a forgery as it was altered after the OP signed it to contain different information.

 

Whether the claimant had submitted the invoice as part of his POC, I would have thought it is the first document the judge would ask for. i.e. surely to demonstrate that the OP owed him money, he needs to show the judge what price was agreed compared to what price was paid. I think that is as far as the case will get when the OP also presents his, unaltered, version of the invoice.

That is if the claimant is foolish enough to pursue it that far.

[heliosuk]

The one case was probably about a brand new item whereas thsi is about a second hand item and as we all know with cars the dealer loads the price so was probably £1000 more than if a private sale or trade in price so one could argue that even at a £1000 less than previously agreed it was a reasonable expectation to pay that price.

Yes indeed that could be the case but you're missing the point about the precedent that was set in that the buyer knew a mistake had been made. Further we don't all know that with cars the dealer loads the price by £1000 or more. The price they agree buy and the price they agree to sell is their perogative so I think that side of your opinion is probably nebulous.

 

For the 30 to 50 quid fixed fee advice you can get from a solicitor as to what could happen when you have filed your defence it will be well worth it!

[stroke a badger]

For the 30 to 50 quid fixed fee advice you can get from a solicitor as to what could happen when you have filed your defence it will be well worth it!

 

I'm trying to find a solicitor who charges less than £180 to offer advice but not having much luck. So far I have phoned a couple of solicitors in my area and tried searching using Contactlaw.co.uk.

[heliosuk]

Try the old yellow pages. Just tell the solicitor that you need 1/2 an hour to run through a scenario. A lot of them do, do a fixed fee for a quick opinion which is what you need. Am surprised you cannot find one. It's the independants you ought to look for.

 

I've run the scenario through a relative tonight who is rather high up in the legal begal world and their advice was run it through a solicitor. So I said you would say that anyway and the advice was "run it past a solicitor to let him (i.e. the OP ) know what could happen" if it proceeded to a hearing. Advice was to try and settle outside as if it went to court it could backfire big time. Further the DJ would hit home on the signature issue but not on the receipt book unless the receipt book showed the inappropriate signature.

 

What you have, I was advised, is a situation of liar against dishonesty and taking advantage, both of which don't go down too well.

 

If I was going to Ladbrookes tomorrow I'd put a bet on both each way!!