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Rocky Roadster

Creation finance/store card -CCA without interest rate - unenforceable?

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Hi all, Battling on, and an interesting turn with Creation. (This is my second attempt at uploading the docs!)

 

Creation finally provided a CCA / Application form after three letters and months of waiting and hassle over signatures.

 

The application form is signed etc, but does not specify the interestrate payable anywhere on the form.

 

There is a separate typed sheet dated October 2010 saying:

Interest rates are charged on the account as follows: 1995 - present Retail 30.9%.

 

They also sent an artwork printout of a similar application (but different layout) form partly completed in pen with my name and address written in by them, and an artwork "back page" with credit terms.

 

These have printed on the top G7 Creation app 06/00:G7 Creation app 06/00 28/7/09 15:10. page 1

 

The sheets are A3 and have artwork marks in the margins, except the photocopy of the original application form.

 

Does the lack of interest rate on the signed application form make this agreement unenforceable?

 

They are adding interest and charges again now.

 

Grateful for any opinions on this one.

 

Many thanks,

 

 

Creation cca 15-10-10.pdf


Rocky

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Hi all,

Could do with some help on this one. They have sent the original agreement but is it enforceable please?


Rocky

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i believe the requirement is to state an APR?

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Hi Craigers,

 

There is no APR statement on the signed agreement but the "new" version of the agreement they sent me has a back page with APR details on it.

 

The original may have had APR on the back but they have only sent the front page.


Rocky

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Creation cca 15-10-10.pdf

 

Hi all, Grateful for your opinions please.

 

The CCA attached from Creation does not appear to comply with the requirement for prescribed terms.

 

I sent a dispute letter when they failed to supply the CCA within 12+2 days, they were messing around "we need a signature".

 

Now I have got it, it doesn't have interest or APR on the application form / agreement.

 

Should I write disputing the account and say it is not enforceable?

Should I say why, or keep my powder dry?

Should I wait for their next move?

 

Apart from CCAs that are not legible, or reconstituted this is my first challenge of an actual CCA.

 

Many thanks,


Rocky

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Hi, any suggestions please? I need to decide my next move.

Thanks,


Rocky

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Hi,

 

From what I have read this is my opinion and just my observations, based on if I recd the papers you have how I would respond.

 

From your upload these are my thoughts ...

 

1. The heading letter, which discussed credit limits, payments, and interest rate - is clearly headed that its a statement of account, and not a CCA

 

2. The microfiche copy they have sent you is really an appliction form, which I suspect they have provided, and reying upon as a cca, as it is clearly headed it is an agreement regualted by the CCA74 (which is quoted above your signature)

 

3. So, we have a CCA - but it has (as far as I could see), no prescribed terms within its 4 corners. (4 corners being between page 1 and the signaure page)

 

3a, They have said they have provided you with a copy of the front page of your agreement, so there are inferring that there is a 2nd, 3rd whatever - and thats because there are no pres terms in what you signed, so they are thinking on their feet

 

3b, For they to get away with this, there must be reference made on the page of signature, if this is the first page of the agreement presented, directing you as to where the pres terms are for your perusal BEFORE you actully sign the agreement - as your signature is confirming that you both agree to be bound by them.

 

3c, As there (from what I can see) is no such ref - or even discussion in the recent docs they have sent you where they are, they are buggered ... and in my opinion default of your CCA request.

 

4. Plus what the hell is an "update true copy" of your agreement - they have either provided you a true copy, or they haven't.... !!! I suspect they mean they have filled in the spaces on the reconstructed doc they have enclosed - which must contain all of the information that was in the original - which doesn't look as though it does (as there appears more in it !!), then it is also no good as a recon version. Also if they have provided a recon version, they have to confirm why they have provided you with a recon version instead a true copy of the original, and if they hold the original.

 

5. My next move would to just write back with the standard "in dispute" letter, on the basis that what they have sent you is not a correctly executed agreement ... etc ... etc....

 

6. See what response you get, and then we can take it from there.....

 

Abs x

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Hi Abby,

Thanks for your response.

 

Creation have been quite "creative", not supplying anything without a signature, sending artwork partially filled in by them wth my details, an "updated true copy" as you have pointed out, etc. so I suspect that they know I have a strong argument. The 2000 version they sent doesn't have any prescribed terms or reference to them either on the front page. They are all on the back of the application form.

 

If they were on the back page of my original signed agreement would that comply with the act?

 

Many thanks again,

x


Rocky

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Ah, ok didn't know there was a 2nd page to the recon. I'm also unable to read the whole page you have scanned as only half is visable ? Could you scan up all the recon stuff again, in full pages?

 

But what they appeat to be saying is that they have only sent you page 1 of the agreement you signed (which doesn't contain any perscribed terms), as I am presuming they are claiming they didn't scan, or retain the reverse of the original doc. Which from their recon docs supplied, they CLAIM WOULD have contained all the pres terms reqd for an enforceable doc - but they would wouldn't they ????!!!

 

Thats all well and good ..... but WERE THEY ?

 

Does the front page of the recon doc make any reference to the reverse or where the pres tems are? Also is the recon doc actually correct, i.e does it contain your correct name and address at the TIME of the application, correct employment details for that time etc .... as any errors is another way to get the recon version discounted - it has to be 100% correct to info that would have been contained in the original.

 

By the way, a recon version is technically not sufficient to support any court proceedings, so if they want to got to court they SHOULD have to produce the original ... although some DJs are allowing the copy doc, if the Creditor swears that this is a true representative of the origianal ... so you need to discred the recon version as much as possible, to prove that doc is unreliable as evidence.

 

Also, do you recall the pres terms being on the reverse of the original doc you signed ? If they weren't then you state this, and advise them you shall put them to strict proof to prove otherwise .. which shall only be satisfied by the presentation of the original ....

 

Anyway, if you can have a scout through what you've got, and give a bit more info I will try and help ..

 

As I say I'm no expert .. all advice is given in good faith and without legal training - but what I will do is give you guidance on the way I have handled things and the things I have learned, which has resulted in (currently) 7 creditors and DCAs all backing off (plus 5 of my friend who I have been helping) and leaving us alone for over 12 months now ... with just another 4 yrs to go until they fall off my credit record .. !!!!

 

Abs x

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Hi Abby,

 

The recon form that they sent has not got prescribed terms on the first page but has on the second page, which I am assuming would be on the back of the printed document.

 

I don't remember the application form having terms on the back and they certainly haven't supplied it.

 

I am scanning the other documents in and while post them shortly.

 

x


Rocky

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Hi Abs, sorry for the delay in updating the thread, life is full as they say (full of what is another thing)

Problems with scanner I'm afraid.

 

Felt I had to do something in response to Creation, so I have decided to send a CAG template letter challenging the validity of the agreement and giving them 21 days to come back with a valid one or I will consider the account closed. Put them in a corner a bit.

 

I am not happy with the way they have handled my request; putting off sending me anything for 3 months, providing an update true copy (can it be a true copy if it is updated?) and reconstituted terms and conditions, so I am calling their bluff. I will update the thread when I have their response.

Hope you are keeping on top, :-)

Rocky x


Rocky

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Hi Rocky,

 

Ok lets see what they respond with ... should be interesting !!!

 

Abs x

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Hi all,

Best Wishes for 2011

 

Got a load of pre-Christmas threatograms. Had a bit of respite over Christmas.

 

First week in Jan and I think I have boobed badly with Creation! :roll:

 

Sent another dispute letter in November giving them 21 days to provide a properly executable agreement. (CCA provided in October is doubtful).

 

Response was a default notice, then a threat of further action and today a letter saying that a representative has been arranged to call (WHICH WE DON'T WANT!)

 

Wrote straight back today with template letter saying no visits.

 

I was persuaded to call the number as well, as we have received a local call from a suspect source this week (agent?).

 

The number given on the letter was an answer phone with another number, to the payment collectors. Gave minimal security, and all I got was" why haven't you paid since July". When I said the account was in dispute they said no it isn't, nothing in computer, no letters received.

 

I didn't want to send all my letters by recorded delivery because of cost - BIG BOOB?

 

Right from the start Creation has wriggled - no signature on CCA request etc.

They have been sending statements and banging charges on every month.

 

I have now added a copy of my dispute letters to the no visits letter and sent them by recorded post.

 

Posting this update as I am worried, OH is furious.

We live next to our landlord, so if he gets a knock on the door we are in trouble.

 

Hope this experience helps other Caggers.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Best Wishes,


Rocky

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Hi all,

Have Creation cut their losses?

 

They delayed answering my CCA request, sent a questionable agreement, bumped their charges and interest up and restarted statements, sent a default notice, and denied my dispute over the phone.

I am now getting pestered by Clarity (such a reassuring name) for this account.

 

Is Clarity likely to have bought the debt?

or are they just agents for Creation?

Any thoughts please?

 

Thanks all,


Rocky

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If they have purchased the debt they would need to send you a notice of assignment. Sounds like they are just chasing it on behalf of the OC.

 

Regarding the interest issue read this it may help - its a recent case. Your agreement may be temporarily unenforceable.

 

http://drrkproxxxy.appspot.com/www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2011/105.html&query=Phoenix&method=boolean

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Can you post up the Default notice along with the date you recieved it minus your personal details, as the Default Notice may be invalid.


Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Always seek the advice of an insured qualified professional. All my legal and nonlegal knowledge comes from either here (CAG),my own personal research and experience and/or as the result of necessity as an Employer and Businessman.

 

By using my advice in any form, you agreed to waive all rights to hold myself or any persons representing myself of any liability.

 

If you PM me, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private. All PMs that are sent in missuse (including but not limited to phinishing, spam) of the PM application and/or PMs that are threatening or abusive will be reported to the Site Team and if necessary to the police and/or relevant Authority.

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Hi all,

No notice of assignment, but others have rarely sent them out in the past when I know they have been assigned.

 

I have parachute account, strictly no credit (my rule).

 

Have posted the DN below. Dated 3rd December. Not sure when I received it exactly.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Creation DN 3-12-10.pdf

Edited by Rocky Roadster
Make document bigger.

Rocky

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PS

the amount of the DN is strange as I haven't paid anything since the account went into dispute in August 2010.


Rocky

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Have you got the envelope that the DN was sent in as going by the 2nd class the 4 working days (minus weekends) service rule applies which would make the default invalid as it would fail to give a clear 14 days to rememdy. So we really need to know if it was sent to you first class or 2nclass, as first class would mean it just scrapes in as valid judging by my brief look at it.


Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Always seek the advice of an insured qualified professional. All my legal and nonlegal knowledge comes from either here (CAG),my own personal research and experience and/or as the result of necessity as an Employer and Businessman.

 

By using my advice in any form, you agreed to waive all rights to hold myself or any persons representing myself of any liability.

 

If you PM me, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private. All PMs that are sent in missuse (including but not limited to phinishing, spam) of the PM application and/or PMs that are threatening or abusive will be reported to the Site Team and if necessary to the police and/or relevant Authority.

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Hi tb2,

 

Sorry, I am still learning. Don't have the envelope but I will keep envelopes from now. I guess it was first class but I am not sure.

 

Will learn from this. Default notices usually are no surprise to me and I can't pay what is required so I just file them and think of it as part of the process. But I will pay more attention in the future.

 

Many thanks,


Rocky

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Keep the envelope and write the date you received it on the front. Either staple it to the contents, or keep the contents in the envelope.

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Hi all,

 

Got 2 aggressive phone calls from a company west mdlnds dc.

Wouldn't speak to them and said put it in writing, but they persisted saying they had written and would continue to call me. I said I would record their calls and he said go on then (like big kids aren't we) so I said OK and hung up and banned the number.

 

Next got a letter demanding full payment and saying not to contact creation as they would refer me to back to WM dc.

The account is still in dispute with creation.

 

Who are westmidlands DC? Anyone had any experience with them?

 

Have they bought the debt?

 

Do I need to send the dispute letter to hem?

 

Cheers,


Rocky

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yes send them a copy of the dispute letter and tell them you are reporting their actions to the OFT.

 

Also write to the original creditor telling them the same.

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