Bristow & Sutor Bailiffs Council Tax

[Smelly Dog]

Just when you think that you have everything under control.....

 

I am physically shaking and feel sick as I write this.

 

I was getting ready for my son's sixth birthday party, this evening.

 

At 4.45pm I received a phone call from a bailiff from Bristow and Suitor demanding payment of £144 plus charges.

 

We have been paying off an outstanding council tax arrears at £24 a fortnight for the last 2 years. We are up to date with our current council tax payments. Obviously there are only six payments to go.

 

I explained that there must be a mistake and would contact the council and get back to him.

 

He then informed me that he was sitting outside my house; read the registration of my van and said that if they didn't get payment then they would seize the van. I was and am TOTALLY SHOCKED!

I pointed out that I use the van for work (I am a musician and keep my equipment in it and use it to get to gigs and back) and it would be unlawful to take it. He said that wasn't true. He refused to show or give me any paper-ork other than a big red letter with contact details on. He also showed me his debt collection ID badge which I made a note of.

 

I asked him to hold on while I rang the council.

I got through to the council tax department and explained the situation. They confirmed that the last payment was received on 30th July and that they had not received anything since so therefore I had to come up with the money or they would seize my vehicle. I explained that I use the vehicle for work. She said that I would have to prove that the vehicle was insured for work, by producing documents and that the "goods in it" were also insured.

 

At that point my partner got back with a lot of excited children coming for a birthday party and it seemed pretty pointless to pursue this line as they would more than likely just take my partner's vehicle instead!

 

I spoke to my partner and we quickly established what has happened.

 

We changed bank accounts in July/August and rang everyone that we have direct debits with to give them our new account details.

She recalls that Bristow & Sutor were particularly difficult to deal with as they were asking for lots of extra information, such as alternative telephone numbers; the address of my partner's work-place and the like. She gave them nothing and stuck to her guns and successfully passed on to them the new bank details.

She rang them on the 30th July to give them the details and also made a card payment to cover the next payment due in case there was a delay in the bank details being entered on to the system as we didn't want to default.

 

That is the LAST CONTACT we have had with Bristow & Sutor until this evening.

 

We have not had a single letter although they claim to have written to us in September. Not one single telephone call until now. The first we know of that there is a problem is when they are sat outside my house threatening to take my only means of earning a living!

 

It appears that Bristow & Sutor haven't set up the DD as they promised to do.

 

Having established what had happened I told the lady from the council that I was happy to pay the £144 in order to clear the outstanding amount there and then. She said that was fine but I would have to discuss Bristow & Sutors fees with the bailiffs.

 

I went back outside and told him I would pay the £144. He then told me that unless I paid them £294 they would still seize the vehicle. Their charge was £150!!

 

I was receiving no support from the council and they were insisting that I pay up or Bristow & Sutor would take my van.

 

I then asked to see a copy of the Council Tax Liability Order that was granted in 2008. He told me that they didn't have to have a copy of the Liability Order in order to seize my vehicle. Instead he produced a photocopy of a XXXX Borough Council Licence dated 30/9/94 with a paragraph entitled "Authority To Distrain." (I made a note of the details and upon checking my notes have just realised that the expiry date is 21/1/09 unless I have written it down wrong in my panic!) He also showed me his bailiff collection certificate Issued 14/9/XX and another bailiff photo-identification.

I then threatened to sit in my van if he attempted to take it away and he told me that if I did that they would call the police!

 

He refused to give me ANY documents to photocopy and refused to give me a chance to sort it out tomorrow with the Bristow & Sutor office or the council. In any event both offices had now shut.

 

Faced with prospect of losing my van or paying up I have reluctantly made a card payment of £305.76. This includes the 4% charge for paying by card!

 

I refused to sign the receipt and told him that I was paying under protest and would be vehemently protesting their actions and complaining!

 

We can't really afford the payment and I am now terrified that other DD's might bounce as we are now £304 down and money is tight.

 

I made a point of not taking out my frustrations on the bailiffs as I honestly believe that they are simply given a list of people to visit the following day and are not responsible for what has gone on before.

 

I feel like I have been mugged. Despite the goings on we tried to make sure that my son's birthday party was as enjoyable as possible and told the kids that there had been a big mistake but it had been sorted out now.

 

I now feel cross with myself and my partner because I know that we should probably have immediately sent a Recorded Delivery Letter confirming the telephone conversation. But we didn't!

 

Are we stuffed or is there anything that we can do? Please advise. I know there are people here with far greater knowledge and experience of this sort of thing.

 

Thanks ;(

[Smelly Dog]

NOW I read up and it looks like I should have sent them packing and called the police.

 

But I had no reason to gen up before as I wasn't expecting ANY sort of visit like this!

 

I'm cross with myself. Should have called their bluff but I had a load of kids running round and £300 seemed a lot cheaper than losing a 10 grand van and all my equipment!

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaargh!

[ploddertom]

If you have been paying this for more than 2 years do you know how much the original Liabilty Order was for? The only definitive answer to this is obtainable form the Council and not as advised by the Bailiff. Have you ever sent off to the Bailiff for a breakdown of their charges?

 

PT

[hallowitch]

can i ask if you have ever had a breakdown of your account

do you know how much the liability or was for

do you know how much you have paid to the bailiffs from the start of the account

do you know what charges had been added to your account before today

had the bailiff previously levied the van

[ploddertom]

Have you ever checked to make sure the Bailiff who has attended is Certificated? There is a link to this in the stickies. There is no allowance in the CT Regs for them to charge a Card Fee so that is at least one overpayment you can claim back, this is why you must ask for a Breakdown of ALL charges.

 

PT

[ploddertom]

Apart from the receipt have they left you with any other paperwork?

 

PT

[breeze1996]

I thought i read somewhere you can claim your fees back if they over charge. Someone one here will know better than me.

[Smelly Dog]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Never had a breakdpwn of the account. I queried it with my partner but she believed it to be right.

I should have some paper-work somewhere that states the exact amounts involved.

I don't know how much we have paid to the bailiffs from the start of the account.

I don't know what charges have been added.

I have had NO contact with bailiffs so am not aware of any levy.

 

Your questions are making me feel more stupid than I already do.

Valid as they are.

 

In our defence we were looking forward to the fact that we only had six more payments to go and then we were done with it.

 

Or so we thought...

[hallowitch]

I thought i read somewhere you can claim your fees back if they over charge. Someone one here will know better than me.

 

 

yes you can but you need to get the amo to load the gun before you start firing the bullets

[ploddertom]

Here's an example of a letter you can use to get a Breakdown, use and adapt as you see fit. Send it be email backed with a hard copy in the post - send Signed For.

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a

 

breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee

 

was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated

 

at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7

 

1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this

 

information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

PT

[Smelly Dog]

Apart from the receipt have they left you with any other paperwork?

 

PT

 

No other paperwork other than the Receipt of Payment. He flatly refused to let me have ANY paperwork. He showed me the "Authority To Distrain" photocopy and said that was all he needed to take the van. And he showed me two forms of bailiff id. One a card with a photo and the other a bank card style id with his name and registration number.

The fat, hard looking guy sat in the driver's seat of their van and said nothing the whole time.

[hallowitch]

Your questions are making me feel more stupid than I already do.

Valid as they are.

 

absolutely no need to feel stupid most of us on here have been in your shoes

 

write ( Recorded delivery )to Bristow & Sutor and ask them for a full breakdown of your account

Bristow & Sutor Bailiffs my tell you that this is subject access request information and try to charge you £10 its not

 

there is nothing stopping you sending a subject access request to your council asking for all information relating you account internal and external councils don't charge for this information (i would recommend doing this ASAP as they can take up to 40 days to supply it )

 

 

have a look on your councils website and see if you can make a freedom of information request on-line if you cant do it by recorded delivery letter

 

ask for a copy of there contract/service level between xxx council and Bristow & Sutor for the collection of council tax

Council Tax

 

once you receive the replies you go through it if there are unlawfully charges you load the gun and fire

[Smelly Dog]

Have you ever checked to make sure the Bailiff who has attended is Certificated? There is a link to this in the stickies. There is no allowance in the CT Regs for them to charge a Card Fee so that is at least one overpayment you can claim back, this is why you must ask for a Breakdown of ALL charges.

 

PT

 

I've just run an online check at http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/CertificatedBailiffs/searchPublic.do?search=Harrod and he is certificated.

 

If I understand right from reading elsewhere it would appear that 4% would normally be a "levy fee" up to the value of £400.

 

It seems he has described this to me as a "4% charge for paying by card."

 

And thanks so much for all the replies. I feel like I have friends and people on my side instead of being all alone...

[ploddertom]

 

It seems he has described this to me as a "4% charge for paying by card."

 

And thanks so much for all the replies. I feel like I have friends and people on my side instead of being all alone...

 

Now you are "paid up to date" you can relax - with the exception of worrying about what you spent. Take your time collating all your information you require and when you are ready it is a simple matter of reclaiming any and all overcharged amounts. The Council are responsible for all the actions of their contractors (Bailiff) and if it comes to it you name them as co-defendant if you have to issue an application in the County Court. As Hallowitch says:

 

"once you receive the replies you go through it if there are unlawfully charges you load the gun and fire"

 

Lots of help and advice here, most have been in a similar position at some stage.

 

PT

[Smelly Dog]

Email sent today and signed for letter to follow.

 

Dear Sir,

 

With reference to the above account could you please provide me with a

 

full breakdown of the account?

 

Including:

 

 

1) The amount and date of the original liability order.

2) Amounts and dates of all monies paid by us since the account was passed to you.

3) The time and date of any bailiff action that incurred a fee.

4) The reason for the fee.

5) The name(s) of the bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion that a fee was charged.

6) The name(s) of the court(s) where the bailiff(s) was/were certificated.

7) The date of the certification.

8) Any other charges that you may have placed on the account.

 

This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7

 

1998 so does not incur a fee of £10.

You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

[Smelly Dog]

This is the adapted SAR being sent to the council:

 

**Subject Access Request**

Ref: Account Number xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bristow & Sutor Ref: xxxxx xxxxx

 

Dear Sir,

This is a request for information under the Data Protection Act 1998 in relation to the above account number.

For your convenience I have detailed below a list of what I require, although this is not an exhaustive list and just an example of the sort of information that I require.

1. Computer screen notes relating to the conduct of my account

2. Computer screen notes relating to transactions that have gone through my account

3. Internal messages or notes relating to the conduct of my account

4. Internal messages or notes relating to transactions that have gone through my account

5. Recordings of any telephone conversations, whether internal or external, relating to my account

6. Copies of any e-mails or other electronic communications, whether internal or external, relating my account

7. Copies of letters relating to my account

8. All information relating to litigation that has taken place on my account

9. A detailed statement of account showing a breakdown of all costs charged, showing in each case the reason for the cost and the actual cost against that item

10. Copies of all reviews conducted relating to my account

11. For any cost which relates to an attendance fee, kindly state the date and precise time of the attendance and the name of the certificated bailiff making each attendance with the name of the county court where the relevant bailiff obtained his or her certificate

12. Copies of all relevant paperwork created as a result of any and all visits ever made to me along with details of the results of each visit

13. Copies of any and all documentation issued to me or left at my property after each visit was made including details of the date and precise time of the visit and the charges incurred; this must include the name of the bailiffs who attended

14. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied

15. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

16. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed

 

I trust that the above is clear and should you be in any doubt as to your obligations as a Data Controller, then I would advise that you consult your corporate counsel.

As detailed above I have enclosed the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

xxxx

 

xxxxx

[hallowitch]

This is the adapted SAR being sent to the council:

 

**Subject Access Request**

Ref: Account Number xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bristow & Sutor Ref: xxxxx xxxxx

 

Dear Sir,

This is a request for information under the Data Protection Act 1998 in relation to the above account number.

For your convenience I have detailed below a list of what I require, although this is not an exhaustive list and just an example of the sort of information that I require.

1. Computer screen notes relating to the conduct of my account

2. Computer screen notes relating to transactions that have gone through my account

3. Internal messages or notes relating to the conduct of my account

4. Internal messages or notes relating to transactions that have gone through my account

5. Recordings of any telephone conversations, whether internal or external, relating to my account

6. Copies of any e-mails or other electronic communications, whether internal or external, relating my account

7. Copies of letters relating to my account

8. All information relating to litigation that has taken place on my account

9. A detailed statement of account showing a breakdown of all costs charged, showing in each case the reason for the cost and the actual cost against that item

10. Copies of all reviews conducted relating to my account

11. For any cost which relates to an attendance fee, kindly state the date and precise time of the attendance and the name of the certificated bailiff making each attendance with the name of the county court where the relevant bailiff obtained his or her certificate

12. Copies of all relevant paperwork created as a result of any and all visits ever made to me along with details of the results of each visit

13. Copies of any and all documentation issued to me or left at my property after each visit was made including details of the date and precise time of the visit and the charges incurred; this must include the name of the bailiffs who attended

14. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied

15. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

16. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed

 

I trust that the above is clear and should you be in any doubt as to your obligations as a Data Controller, then I would advise that you consult your corporate counsel.

As detailed above I have enclosed the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

xxxx

 

xxxxx

 

 

lovely that will do just fine

[Smelly Dog]

Thanks.

 

Just added this for good measure.

 

"In addition to the information requested in this Subject Data Access Request I should be grateful if you could supply me with a copy of any contract/service level agreement between xxx xxx Council and Bristow & Sutor for the collection of council tax."

Edited November 1, 2010 by Smelly Dog
Removal of user specific information

[hallowitch]

"In addition to the information requested in this Subject Data Access Request I should be grateful if you could supply me with a copy of any contract/service level agreement between Rugby Borough Council and Bristow & Sutor for the collection of council tax."

 

they may tell you that this information should be request as a freedom of information request

[Smelly Dog]

Had a very rapid response by email from BS.

 

"Dear Sir,

 

Re: Council Tax arrears due to xxxxx xxxxxxx Council.

 

We acknowledge receipt of your enquiry, the contents of which have been noted.

 

Please find attached a statement of each account for your perusal.

 

Please find a breakdown of each account answering all questions:

 

 

1. Each Liability Order was granted in Xxxxx Magistrates Court on the following dates:
   

xxx-x/xxxxx – balance of £442.00 on the 12/09/07.

xxx-x/xxxxx - balance of £612.00 on the 10/09/08.

 

 

1. Please see attached statements.
   

 

3. The details for the bailiff visits are as follows:

xxx-x/xxxxx – 1st visit on the 16/04/08 – Mr xxxxxxx at 11.33am, charge of £24.50 1st visit fee.

xxx-x/xxxxx – 2nd visit on the 02/06/08 – Mr xxxxxxx at 14.27pm, charge of £18.00 2nd visit fee.

 

xxx-x/xxxxx – Van call on the 21/10/10 – Mr xxxxxxxx at 17.24pm, charge of £150.00 van/abortive removal fee.

 

4. All fees are charged in accordance with the Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992 (as amended), please

see the back of the Notice of Seizure of Goods left at your property on the 07/04/09.

 

 

1. All of the bailiffs were certificated at Worcester Magistrates Court : Mr xxxxxxx: renewal on the 04/11/09, Mr xxxxxxx: renewal on
   

the 16/12/09 and xxxxxxx renewal: on the 21/01/09.

 

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you wish to discuss the accounts.

 

We trust this is satisfactory.

 

Yours Faithfully

Edited November 2, 2010 by Smelly Dog
Removed names of bailiffs

[Smelly Dog]

They have attached two account statements which I can either mail to whoever is interested or post up here later...

[hallowitch]

see the back of the notice of seizure of Goods left at your property on the 07/04/09.

 

where is the levy fee for this did you receive a notice of seizure

 

 

post it up when can as i cant see the levy fee in your previous post

[Smelly Dog]

1st Attachment - This one was paid off 16/10/09 (Apologies for the length - have searched for a way to load up .htm attachments to no avail)

442.00

0.00

442.00

Opening Balance

16/04/08

5.08

CR

5.08

CR

0.00

Card Transaction Fee: 16/04/08

16/04/08

24.50

CR

24.50

CR

0.00

A.T.L. Fee (First Visit): 17/04/08

15/04/08

5.08

 

5.08

 

0.00

Credit/Debit Card Payment

02/06/08

18.00

CR

18.00

CR

0.00

A.T.L. Fee (Second Visit): 05/06/08

27/06/08

12.00

 

12.00

 

0.00

Payment by Standing Order

11/07/08

12.00

 

12.00

 

0.00

Payment by Standing Order

25/07/08

12.00

 

12.00

 

0.00

Payment by Standing Order

08/08/08

12.00

 

6.50

 

5.50

Payment by Standing Order

22/08/08

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

05/09/08

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

19/09/08

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

03/10/08

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

17/10/08

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

31/10/08

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

14/11/08

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

28/11/08

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

12/12/08

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

30/12/08

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

09/01/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

23/01/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

06/02/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

20/02/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

06/03/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

20/03/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

03/04/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

17/04/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

01/05/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

15/05/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

29/05/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

12/06/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

26/06/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

09/07/09

2.64

CR

2.64

CR

0.00

Card Transaction Fee: 09/07/09

09/07/09

68.64

 

2.64

 

66.00

Credit/Debit Card Payment: 09/07/09

10/07/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

24/07/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

07/08/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

21/08/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

04/09/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

18/09/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

02/10/09

12.00

 

0.00

 

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

16/10/09

10.50

 

0.00

 

10.50

Payment by Standing Order

 

0.00

 

0.00

 

0.00

Current Balance

Edited November 1, 2010 by Smelly Dog
Space removal

[Smelly Dog]

2nd Attachment. This the one that the "Van - Abortive removal Fees" have been applied to.

 

612.00

 

0.00

612.00

Opening Balance

16/10/09

1.50

 

0.00

1.50

Payment by Standing Order

30/10/09

12.00

 

0.00

12.00

Payment by Standing Order

04/12/09

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

18/12/09

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

04/01/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

15/01/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

29/01/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

12/02/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

26/02/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

12/03/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

26/03/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

09/04/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

23/04/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

07/05/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

21/05/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

04/06/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

18/06/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

02/07/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

16/07/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

29/07/10

1.00

CR

1.00

CR

0.00

Card Transaction Fee: 29/07/10

29/07/10

23.50

 

1.00

22.50

Credit/Debit Card Payment: 29/07/10

30/07/10

24.00

 

0.00

24.00

Payment by Standing Order

21/10/10

150.00

CR

150.00

CR

0.00

Van/Abortive Removal Fees

21/10/10

11.76

CR

11.76

CR

0.00

Card Transaction Fee

21/10/10

305.76

 

161.76

144.00

Credit/Debit Card Payment

0.00

0.00

0.00

Current Balance

[Smelly Dog]

That's everything so far. Will now start rummaging through our papers for any and all BS paperwork, in particular the notice of Seizure of Goods. I seem to remember that there was a mistake with the payment at the time (THEIR FAULT and they apologised and corrected it.) But obviously they had put things in place for a Seizure of Goods notice to be delivered and never retracted it. So (if it exists) it was sitting there on the system waiting for an opportunity to be used. The whole thing stinks. The Seizure of Goods notice was only delivered after THEIR mistake with the payment and the missed fortnightly payments for Aug/Sep/Oct were as a result of THEIR failure to setup the DD with our new Bank Details as per the telephone conversation on 29/07/10. You can see clearly that we made a payment by card on that date to make sure that we didn't miss a payment during the setup process! Accidental incompetence or deliberate mis-management of an account that they were obviously not going to make any money on because it was up to date? How to prove the latter?

 

And while I'm at it! The bloke didn't even lift his arse out of the van! After he rang me I came out and dealt with it through his passenger side window. How is that Van/Abortive Removal Fees?

 

And the time is wrong in their email. I rang 1471 after his call and he arrived at 4.45pm. Not 5.24pm.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Smelly Dog
Grammar