Can anyone help me with my PCN please?

[lawabidingcitizen]

Hi,

 

I received a PCN the other day and I would like to dispute it. I think I have a few options, but I would welcome your advise.

 

I parked up, paid for a ticket, displayed it and went to the dentist. Time 11.49.

They were running late, so at 12.16 i returned to the meter and paid for another 1/2hr - till 12.46.

There is a sign saying 'no return within Xhrs' but there were more empty spaces than full...

 

I returned to my car with a few mins to spare. I started the engine, engaged the gears, removed the handbrake and the phone rang. I took the call - it turned out to be somewhat of an emergency. A council 'revenue collector' came over to my car and flashed a machine at the ticket in the window. I asked if he was giving me a ticket. He told me that I had to move. I agreed, but was in the middle of an important call, the engine was running, and I would be on my way shortly. He left.

 

Next thing i see is a blue jacket in my peripheral vision. I flicked on the windscreen wipers, put the car in reverse and backed off. At the same time the 'revenue collector' lept forward and tucked the ticket under the wiper, took a photo, then waved his camera at me mouthing nah nah ne nah nah!!!! Time 13.08

 

The points I believe I can raise in my defence are;

 

The ticket was not *stuck* to my windscreen. The sticky back was not removed.

 

The photo the 'revenue collector' has shows me only half in a parking bay, as I was reversing when he took it. Nor does the photo clearly show a PCN stuck to my screen - it might show a yellow crunched up *something* tucked up under a wiper blade.

 

The ticket also says that my parking ticket expired at 11.46 - before I even arrived to begin with.

 

I was not parking - I had essentially found a safe place to pull over and make an emergency call.

 

The ticket says 'contravention'

 

The ticket says 'observed from 13.08, to 13.08'

 

I also am wondering if it is better to write to the council and ask them to show me proof that I was there during the time I apparently arrived, in the hope that the ticket itself was incorrect and therefore invalid.

 

Or do I wait for them to contact me and ask for proof that it was issued. Then ask for a copy of what they issued, then dispute it.

 

Will they look at cctv to investigate my claim, because i cant see any other way of proving when I actually arrived.

 

Not sure if any of the points I raised are valid reasons for appeal, or if I can make a case. Hopefully someone here can give their opinion.

 

Thanks.

[Jamberson]

Lot's of points to address. I will give you my opinion on each:

 

The ticket was not *stuck* to my windscreen. The sticky back was not removed.

 

That's not an issue.

 

The photo the 'revenue collector' has shows me only half in a parking bay, as I was reversing when he took it. Nor does the photo clearly show a PCN stuck to my screen - it might show a yellow crunched up *something* tucked up under a wiper blade.

 

Photos are not necessary to the enforcement so lack of images is unlikely to get you far.

 

The ticket also says that my parking ticket expired at 11.46 - before I even arrived to begin with.

 

This is potentially important. Can you clarify exactly what it says, word for word, about 11:46, and in what way it is inaccurate.

 

I was not parking - I had essentially found a safe place to pull over and make an emergency call.

 

This may be grounds for appeal, although your description of events above does not show you "pulled over". You my be able to argue this one, but you'll have to word things carefully.

 

The ticket says 'contravention'

 

That would be correct.

 

The ticket says 'observed from 13.08, to 13.08'

Not much hope with that one. If you have a p&d ticket, you need to be gone by the expiry time. You cannot pay again to extend the stay. Therefore, there is no observation time needed and the ticket will be correctly worded this way.

 

I also am wondering if it is better to write to the council and ask them to show me proof that I was there during the time I apparently arrived, in the hope that the ticket itself was incorrect and therefore invalid.

 

Or do I wait for them to contact me and ask for proof that it was issued. Then ask for a copy of what they issued, then dispute it.

 

Write to them with an appeal before they write to you, or you will face higher charges.

 

Also, when you write, make sure you have your appeal worked out and put it all in the letter. Don't bother writing to ask questions or request proofs. An appeal is for you to state your case.

 

In summary, your lines of appeal are not looking too strong. I can only see a possible issue with the 11:46 statement, and the fact that you were stationary to take a call.

[lawabidingcitizen]

Thanks Jamberson, I have the P&D tickets and the PCN at home, so ill post back this evening.

 

Basically, the PCN says that my P&D ticket expired 1 hr before it did. I may have bought a second ticket and have broken the rules that way, but I was not in the car park until 2 mins after the PCN says my P&D ticket expired -I would have had to have bought the P&D ticket 32 mins before I actually arrived in the car park!!!

 

But how to prove I did not arrive till after the time when the PNC says so, as the P&D ticket i have does not prove this aspect. Only CCTV will...

 

Anyway, will post exactly what is said this evening. Thanks

[sailor sam]

100% agree with Jamberson. But the way I see it is that your original ticket is the issue as it expired at 12.19hrs and your second ticket (12.16 to 12.46hrs) would'nt be valid anyway as the 'no return' rule applies according to the sign. So the PCN must show it was issued after 12.19hrs as on the ticket you bought. If it indeed it states your ticket expired before then and you hadn't arrived earlier than 11.49hrs, then the PCN would be invalid.

 

However, i'm struggling with one part of your account. You say you returned 'with minutes to spare' (which i'm assuming was just before 12.46hrs as you wrongly believed you had correctly paid uuntil then) and you started the engine, took a call on your phone, CEO arrives ect ect... and by the time the CEO had 'slapped' the PCN under your wiper, took photo ect its now 13.08hrs! Thats an additional 22 minutes after your allready 'expired' time which seems a long time for you to 'on your way shortly'.

 

Your only hope of appeal is with the information on the PCN regarding the expiry time of your original ticket so as you asy, post it up along with the PCN (obscure VRM first) so we can advise you further.

 

One thought; We are deffinately talking Council car park here arn't we?

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[lawabidingcitizen]

Hi, Thanks for the advise guys.

 

I returned to my car 1 or 2 mins before 12.46. The 'revenue collector' came and flashed his machine 1 or 2 mins before 13.08. I was on the phone for a while, correct, but the revenue collector only came along at 13.06 at the earliest.

 

I accept that I should have not bought a second ticket, and that technically it does not constiute a valid P&D ticket. But I cant see how enforcing this will make the world a better place - the car park was 75% empty!

 

I think I only have recourse on a technicality - ie i was stationary (the ignition was on for me to activate my wipers, and reverse almost immediately), and that I was not even in the car park when the PNC states that i was.

 

EDIT.... sorry, I was in the car park when the PNC states i was, but the PNC claims that my ticket was valid during a period, which was before I had arrived in the first place.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2010 by lawabidingcitizen

[crem]

Sitting in the bay for 22minutes while you were on an "important" call appears ridiculous to me to then expect not to get a PCN

[sailor sam]

Hi, Thanks for the advise guys.

 

I returned to my car 1 or 2 mins before 12.46. The 'revenue collector' came and flashed his machine 1 or 2 mins before 13.08. I was on the phone for a while, correct, but the revenue collector only came along at 13.06 at the earliest.

 

I accept that I should have not bought a second ticket, and that technically it does not constiute a valid P&D ticket. But I cant see how enforcing this will make the world a better place - the car park was 75% empty!

 

I'm sure 99% of drivers who get PCNs would say the same but that dosn't make it right!

 

I think I only have recourse on a technicality - ie i was stationary (the ignition was on for me to activate my wipers, and reverse almost immediately), and that I was not even in the car park when the PNC states that i was.

 

Not sure how that is relevant.

 

EDIT.... sorry, I was in the car park when the PNC states i was, but the PNC claims that my ticket was valid during a period, which was before I had arrived in the first place.

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22571[/ATTACH]

 

 

I'm confused now, and your image is too small to read. Can you re-post via Photo Bucket.com?

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Jamberson]

Yep, we need bigger scans.

 

If you go to a photo hosting site like Photobucket, you can upload the image full-size, then give us the address of the page where we can find it.

 

Edit > As Sailor Sam already said.

[lawabidingcitizen]

Hi, sorry i thought you may be able to click on it and it would expand....im useless with this stuff.

 

anyway, the link should be (please notice i have had to break it up - the site rules are 20 posts or greater to post links)

 

http

://s1212.photobucket.

com/albums/cc450/lawabidingcitizen1/

 

ps. it was a really important call. I am not wealthy and this ticket is a blow. The call I was taking was work and regards a deal that should make me more than the average wage, every month. Not that its anyones business, or that it makes a difference either way. I feel that this was a totally unfair ticket, AND I think I might have grounds for appeal on a technical basis, NOR can I really afford this at the moment, PLUS I think this is type of revenue collection is a disgrace.

 

sorry, rant over....

[sailor sam]

Yes indeed the PCN dosn't correspond with the time on the parking ticket. Obviously the CEO has entered the expiry time as 1 hour early. The only problem I can see is that (as already been pointed out) the time that the PCN was issued was 13.08hrs which is considerably after the time of the first ticket (exp 12.19hrs). As I have previously pointed out, this is your actual time limit on parking from the time you arrived. The subsiquent ticket you purchased (exp 12.46hrs) would no be valid so is irrelevant. However, it may be the case that the CEO hadn't 'logged' your car being parked there during the period covered by the original ticket. So it follows that as far as the CEO is concerned, you parked there after 12.16hrs.

 

You may have some mileage in appeling because of the PCN showing your original expiry time as .16hrs.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[Jamberson]

I think you should appeal, be up front about everything that happened, and point out clearly that there is this error on the PCN. Claim it is invalid as a result. I think you have a good chance.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Appeal by all means but please bear in mind that when you say:

 

I started the engine, engaged the gears, removed the handbrake and the phone rang. I took the call

 

You are perhaps fortunate that it was only a CEO who was present not a police officer.

[green_and_mean]

Sitting in the bay for 22minutes while you were on an "important" call appears ridiculous to me to then expect not to get a PCN

 

Totally agree, anyone that has overstayed by 22 minutes and decides chatting on the phone is more important than moving on when requested can hardly complain.

[lawabidingcitizen]

Thanks for your opinions Sailor Sam and Jamberson. And others too.

 

Yeah, I know Im not on the right side of the rules set out, but A) I cant afford to be B) Half the reason I cant afford it is because of these type of stealth taxes.

 

The only reason the parking spaces there seem to exist is to trap people - there is nothing that can be done there that takes 1/2 hr, and there is normally plenty of space there too. I get tickets at my parents house around the corner, where all the residents complain yet the council wont even give resident permits. Yet there are areas of town, the worst offending areas, that I drive through, where these revenue collectors walk around with face down - litterally.

 

The parking taxes are enforced to produce revenue. Sure, the tax goes to us all, probably. Thats another dabate... But why disguise it, proportion it and then enforce it like this???

 

I have had enough of this BS and I revell in the fact that I have a chance to appeal on a technical basis ie, using their rules against them. Thanks for the advise. If anyone knows, or can tell me the best way to approach this then I would be very grateful.

 

PS, where would the threshold be if 22 mins is long enough to expect a ticket? Because he only saw me there for 1-2 mins max before he leapt at his opportunity.... I wonder if the revenue collector talked to me like a total prick cause he thought I was there for 1hr 22 mins? These guys must lead a pittyful life:?:

[green_and_mean]

PS, where would the threshold be if 22 mins is long enough to expect a ticket? Because he only saw me there for 1-2 mins max before he leapt at his opportunity.... I wonder if the revenue collector talked to me like a total prick cause he thought I was there for 1hr 22 mins? These guys must lead a pittyful life:?:

 

No he probably talked to you like a prick because he asked you to move as you had overstayed and you decided to ignore him and continue chatting on your phone! If its a 30 min max stay bay its not rocket science even for someone with an attitude problem to work out that being 22 mins late is going to be beyond any grace period. You may get off because the CEO has typed in the wrong exp time but you would still have to admit you are guilty of not paying for 22 minutes so what the outcome will be is anyones guess.

[lawabidingcitizen]

No he probably talked to you like a prick because he asked you to move as you had overstayed and you decided to ignore him and continue chatting on your phone! If its a 30 min max stay bay its not rocket science even for someone with an attitude problem to work out that being 22 mins late is going to be beyond any grace period. You may get off because the CEO has typed in the wrong exp time but you would still have to admit you are guilty of not paying for 22 minutes so what the outcome will be is anyones guess.

 

you start of saying probably, then you continue your sentence to present as fact????

and how would I make a valid payment for the 22 mins then? wake up....

are you a CEO? or are you one of those people who live on forum boards cliiques and hide behind their screens? or both may be?

how long is the grace period anyway? and how does it work, ie when is it activated or how is it normally practiced? from the ticket expirery time, or when the CEO asks the owner to move? I guess it would be discresionary, but then pretty much just walking up and slapping a ticket on a car when someone is in it would be acting like an ar*sehole in my book, nevermind the 'plesantries' before hand.

what if I had just arrived and was about to get out to buy a ticket? how would he have known? im sure you will have a good speculative response for those questions wont ya?

the point is, you have no idea how the situation was because I was deliberately vague about it so that it was not a 'he said, she said' post about a small minded piece of sh*t that these CEOs typically are. I asked only for technical and general advise for appealing the ticket.

and your post makes me think you are one of those unfortunate people who meek out their existance as a CEO - I would think you have less to contribute to society than a stray dog, who may at least one day become someones loved pet. mean and green....doubt it. yellow probably!

CEO or not, you clearly have underachieved in your life or have some kind of frustrations. Or perhaps your post is actually representative of the more valuabe aspects of your 'contribution' to us all.

[my-spirit-soars-free]

G&M contributes a lot to these boards, if I got a PCN I wanted to appeal he would be the first person whose advice I would go for. He also drafts appeal letters for people, finds points of law for them, and generally gives a lot of his time to fighting undeserved fines.

 

I would guess that means his contribution to society, or at least some people within it, is actually much more than average.

[green_and_mean]

I think since you already admitted meter feeding, overstaying a P&D bay by 22 minutes and using a mobile whilst driving trying to take the moral high ground is a bit belated!!

Edited October 24, 2010 by green_and_mean

[esmerobbo]

Green and Mean was stating the facts as they were, I think you are looking at it and trying to make the circumstances suit you. If you arrived at the P&D at 11.49 then should you not have left at 12.19? I don't think you can slaughter a CEO for giving you a ticket at 13.08. It wasn't 22 mins over it was 49

 

You state the bays were empty, the reason being people must want to park more then the 30 mins allowed.

 

I can see your logic the bays were clear so you were not blocking the use by someone else.

 

For some reason the powers that be have decided to enforce a 30min max on the P&Ds you took a gamble and lost!

 

You may be lucky that the PCN is non compliant but I dont think you can complain if it is enforceable!

[lawabidingcitizen]

you start of saying probably, then you continue your sentence to present as fact???? because until now I didn't know why he thought you was a 'prick' hence the probably, where as you admitted you carried on talking after seeing him so that is a fact!i dont know what your talking about.

 

and how would I make a valid payment for the 22 mins then? wake up.... I think that is what the ticket machine is for! well done....like i say, wake up...

 

are you a CEO? or are you one of those people who live on forum boards cliiques and hide behind their screens? or both may be? why not answer that your the latter?

 

how long is the grace period anyway? not 22 mins and how does it work, ie when is it activated or how is it normally practiced? 2-5 mins is given usually to allow for discrepencies in time keeping apparatus, So what happens at 51/2 mins, or 6? or what if one gets a ticket at 3 mins and the next guy gets 5 mins? And how long to allow someone a chance to tie up their call and move on? how long for that? from the ticket expirery time, or when the CEO asks the owner to move? I guess it would be discresionary, but then pretty much just walking up and slapping a ticket on a car when someone is in it would be acting like an ar*sehole in my book, nevermind the 'plesantries' before hand.

 

what if I had just arrived and was about to get out to buy a ticket? how would he have known? I think the recently expired ticket stuck on the window was a give away, don't you? which one? i have lots. where where they stuck? You love to speculate don? you? I got one that just happens to expire at the time I got a PCN for....didnt tell you that part did I? you speculate far too much...my question was very simple... I asked if I had a basis for an appeal on a technicallity. You claim you are here for other, greater reasons that the picture being pained I am afraid, regardless of how you chose to disguise it. im sure you will have a good speculative response for those questions wont ya? LOL, I guess thats all you got!!!! I see I have given you way too much credit and that the rest of the questions/responses I thought you might come up with obviously still elude you

 

the point is, you have no idea how the situation was because I was deliberately vague about it so that it was not a 'he said, she said' post about a small minded piece of sh*t that these CEOs typically are. I asked only for technical and general advise for appealing the ticket. if you didnt want to answer then thats fine....

 

and your post makes me think you are one of those unfortunate people who meek out their existance as a CEO - I would think you have less to contribute to society than a stray dog, who may at least one day become someones loved pet. mean and green....doubt it. yellow probably! I earn over £30,000+ a year and only work part time....how much do you earn? well done. thats better than average I guess. not that I see the relavence but hey - last week it was still more than you, but I have to work full time, all the time infact. But my next payslip will read about E50k a month, and by the time next year comes around it will probably be triple that, at least. I havent had the chance to sit down and crunch the numbers properly, but its big I bet your 'green' now eh? But why so mean? I might feel it when £25 quid goes missing from the household budget this month, but I sure as hell wont from now on.

 

CEO or not, you clearly have underachieved in your life or have some kind of frustrations. Is a degree, 3 NVQs, 3 A levels, 2 BTECs and numerous voccational qualifications, a mortgage free house @ 45 and only having to work part time an underacheivment? obviously yes. To begin with, your generation has robbed mine, so your gains mean fairly little were you to start again - hang on....you were not one of those old guys hanging around uni with a degree complex were you? LOL. Well, underachievement doesnt mean compairing yourself to others mate, its a personal thing. And nothing you have listed as an achievement is anything more than what should be expected from any person your age... perhaps thats why you list all the crappy qualis you got too??? Get a life pal. Or perhaps your post is actually representative of the more valuabe aspects of your 'contribution' to us all.

 

what do i do? I am well under 30, I have a family, and I support my wife so she doesnt have to work. We go without a lot so that I can run 3 businesses. The first one has done well and has given opportunity to the second 2, and has just landed a massive contract. We did bring in about 1million of foreign money into this country a year - now its set to be about 10million+, 30+ by this time next year. Money this country desperately needs. The other company that has been supported financially so far (ending next month) is sigining up several NHS trusts to save them an enormous amount of money...in the 10s of millions, we are not sure how much yet , maybe more. And they want us to move faster so they can sign up....we are looking rosey there too!!! I wonder how many people that will help in times of serious crisis? The third company is none of your business.

 

Actually, I dont even know why I bother writing here....luckily I realised this before I got any further...

 

Thanks to all for any advise given. Good luck with how you spend your time to the rest.....I doubt Ill be coming here again....

[Michael Browne]

]Actually, I dont even know why I bother writing here....luckily I realised this before I got any further...

 

Thanks to all for any advise given. Good luck with how you spend your time to the rest.....I doubt Ill be coming here again....

 

Bye, I'm sure that you'll be sorely missed

[green_and_mean]

Bye Bye I guess if you earn £50,000 a month you wont miss the £50 for a parking ticket will you.

 

ps If you didn't contradict yourself so much you would be beleivable.

 

pps If you do wish to come across as a successfull businessman maybe use a spell check and don't use a font that looks like you have been writing with crayons in future.

[green_and_mean]

ps. it was a really important call. I am not wealthy and this ticket is a blow. The call I was taking was work and regards a deal that should make me more than the average wage, every month. Not that its anyones business, or that it makes a difference either way. I feel that this was a totally unfair ticket, AND I think I might have grounds for appeal on a technical basis, NOR can I really afford this at the moment, PLUS I think this is type of revenue collection is a disgrace.

 

sorry, rant over....

 

I may be a pathetic sad under acheiver but at least I am neither poor or unable to afford a £50 PCN!!

[crem]

Personally, I think lawabidingcitizen has had more help than he deserves. Lets hope his final statement is true because CAG doesn't need people with his attitude.

[esmerobbo]

Post # 9 "ps. it was a really important call. I am not wealthy and this ticket is a blow"

 

£50k a month wish I wasn't wealthy.

 

Giving your quoted turnover I would increase your profit margins slightly to include paying the occasional PCN.

Edited October 25, 2010 by esmerobbo