I am a victim of Burglary - landlord wants me to pay for a new door telling that is my fault

[wiosna30]

:Cry:HI,

 

I am a victim of Burglary. I lost everything what I had on my house what is easy to sell (around £10,000.00 plus my car another 10,000.00)

Someone use the back door from the garden to come in to the property smashing the lock.

I have now problem with the landlord because the doors are broken, should be probably to exchange to new and she wants us to pay for this telling that is our fault because the door have a 3 locks, one on the bottom, one on the middle and third one on the top and we locked only using the middle one not the others. She said that she can’t claim from her insurance company because having 3 looks we used only one - We didn’t leave property safety locked.

Please help! I lost a lot not having Contents insurance and I can’t pay additional 1,000 for new French door.

Please let me know if she is right???

[Twinmum21]

Hi

 

I am landlord and tenant. I have one of our AST's to hand, and have had a quick read through. I have found a section under the Landlord's obligations which says:

 

'The landlord will not be required to reinstate the property in the case of damage or destruction if the insurers refuse to pay out the insurance money due to anything the tenant has done or failed to do.'

 

Now, whether 'the property' means any part of the property or the whole property I don't know? I would guess it is only relevant to the 'whole property' which would be consistent with the rest of the wording in that section.

 

It's also not clear from this whether you would be liable for the costs.

 

Under the 'Tenant's obligations' there is a section which reads:

 

'(The tenant is) not to do anything on or at the property which may in any way affect the validity of the insurance of the property and the items listed on the inventory or cause an increase in the premium payable by the landlord.'

 

My guess is that you would be responsible, but if the damage is repairable, and if that would be cheaper, that would be sufficient. I just had a quote for 2 new locks for french doors for £140. (total)

 

I'm not sure if that's any help, have you got an AST you can read through to see if that makes it any clearer?

[MrShed]

As mentioned above, your post talks about damaged locks, but then replacement doors.

 

Are the doors themselves damaged?

 

Unfortunately, it is due to your negligence in effect that the cost has been incurred, and as such I would see it as being the responsibility of the tenant.

[wiosna30]

Guys,

The doors have been broken as well plus lock.

Landlord has sent someone to repair these doors “temporary” but not the carpenter only handymen and she already spent what she said 120.00

He fixed but didn’t finish because landlord wants now change the doors.

Please let me know if there are some legal roles that if doors have 3 locks all of them must be locked? All time she is repeating that this is my fault because back doors have 3 locks and we used only one.

Go back to your “'The landlord will not be required to reinstate the property in the case of damage or destruction if the insurers refuse to pay out the insurance money due to anything the tenant has done or failed to do.

Can I understand that landlord can’t ask me to pay for this???

They took only our things like laptops, cameras etc... as the property has been rented unfornitured, no others damages only doors and lock

[MrShed]

If you have not used available locks, then this will be seen as negligence on your part, and as such liability for the cost incurred as a result of this is your own.

 

I sympathise (I dont use all locks, and I doubt the majority do) but that is the legal position I am afraid.

 

It is a direct result of your failure to use all of the locks that the landlord cannot claim from insurance.

[wiosna30]

ok, but she can claim this only from my deposit on the end of this contract I assume.

She is asking me to pay now or monthly adding part of this to my rent. What is the legal option to pay this?

IN THIS CASE WHY I HAVE PAID DEPOSIT?

[MrShed]

No, she cant only claim it from the deposit - the deposit is there for post-tenancy dilapidations.

[Planner]

It will be the landlords responsibility to ensure the property is secure and pay for this in the first instance - s.11 landlord and tenant act 1985. If they wont do this then they are in breach of this statute. If they refuse to secure the property, you should follow the protocol for disrepair, get the property repaired yourself and deduct from the next rent payment.

 

HOWEVER just because it is the landlords obligation to secure the property in the first instance, it might ultimatley not be their responsibility to pay for it, as you correctly state, that is what the depsoit it for. If you dont want to pay now, then dont. The LL options will be to wait until the end of your tenancy (which I suspect would be at the end of your current agreement) and claim out of the deposit. This will give you the option of contesting the charge via the particular TDS arbitration procedure.

 

I trust you have a crime reference number?

 

The clauses that Twinmum21 are nothing to do with this kind of situation, but instead refers to the unhabitability of the property as a result of a major fire/flood etc.

 

In terms of Twinmum21 second clause under 'tenants obligations', I think this is pretty ropey. In order for this to be even remotley 'enforceable' I trust that Twinmum21 makes a copy of his landlord insurance policies terms and conditions available to all tenants with this clause? otherwise how is a tenant to know what 'may in any way affect the validity of the insurance of the property'?

 

The above is the argument I would use with your current landlord if you have not a copy of their insurance policy terms and conditions. If you dont know his insurance policy requires all three locks to be used, otherwise the insurance will be invalid then this is an oversite on his part.

[Planner]

No, she cant only claim it from the deposit - the deposit is there for post-tenancy dilapidations.

 

Sorry MrShed, this statement is nonsense. By deffinition there can not be any 'post tenancy' delapidations. All delapidations and damage, such as this, occurs during the tenancy.

 

This situation is just what the deposit is for.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Planner

[barney2]

You don't say what sort of locks you have / had on the doors. Are they only lockable from the inside?

[wiosna30]

Guys thank you so much for your help.

Planner,

 

Yes, I HAVE CRIME REF NUMBER

Regarding copy of her insurance - NO, I DONT HAVE

On my tenancy agreement I have only : "Ensure that the property is kept secure at all times, loocking doors and windows - and activating burglar alarms as appropriate" - we dont have alarm here

She doesn’t want to make any claims from Insurance because she will lose all benefits and bonuses and being the landlord she needs to renew the policy every year so she decide to take money from us. I lost a lot.

Barney,

The locks (Garden doors) are:

- One on the middle with key – broken by burglar – lockable from outside as well

- Two (bolts) : bottom and top – not visible from outside, but if they will be locked Burglar can easy broken the glass and put the hand and open

The next thing is that landlord didn’t change the locks and key on front doors! People before me can have still copies of all keys!

[MrShed]

No, she cant only claim it from the deposit - the deposit is there for post-tenancy dilapidations.

 

Sorry MrShed, this statement is nonsense. By deffinition there can not be any 'post tenancy' delapidations. All delapidations and damage, such as this, occurs during the tenancy.

 

This situation is just what the deposit is for.

 

It didnt come out quite as expected - I meant dilapidations at the end of the tenancy.

 

I fully disagree that scenarios like this are what the deposit is intended for, its not.

[MrShed]

She doesn’t want to make any claims from Insurance because she will lose all benefits and bonuses and being the landlord she needs to renew the policy every year so she decide to take money from us. I lost a lot.

 

Now that is different.

 

She doesnt WANT to claim, or she CANT claim?

[wiosna30]

I dont know, of course is better for her not to claim, just take from us.

 

I will tell her tomorrow to make the claim (because having tenants she must have Insurance) from her Insurance company and if they will decline I’d like to see the confirmation letter that they refuse to pay her and after she can try to claim from my deposit

[MrShed]

She does have a responsibility to claim from insurance if she is able, which would leave you only liable for the excess.

 

However, the wording in the TA opens things up to interpretation as well..

[Planner]

"Ensure that the property is kept secure at all times, loocking doors and windows - and activating burglar alarms as appropriate" - we dont have alarm here

 

The locks (Garden doors) are:

- One on the middle with key – broken by burglar – lockable from outside as well

- Two (bolts) : bottom and top

 

Bolts arent Locks. Seems to me that you have 100% complied with your obligations and this is down to the LL to pay for.

[wiosna30]

I know maybe if the bolts will be locked could be different story.

The Police officer came here to check if the property are safe and firstly he said that gate from the garden should be change, must be the padlock with key and something on the top to unable other people to jump what basically they did.

At the moment we have only two bolts on this gate, always locked, we are not using the gate at all but is easy to jump.

They came to the property using this gate, but she doesn’t want to hear about this.

I have nightmare here, first burglary, no car and now” she”

[barney2]

I would think you have a good case not to pay. If she has told her insurance company that the bolts are locks thats her own fault. I thought locks are classed as those that can be done from both sides??? If it is possible to use this door as an entrance / exit to the building then you should not be held responsible for not using the bolts, its not possible to get in from outside then it doesnt make sense.

[wiosna30]

I have nightmare here, first burglary, no car and now” she”

Yes, you right, these doors can be used as an exit or second door to come in. And in this case was only one lock (visible from outside) which was locked

[Twinmum21]

In terms of Twinmum21 second clause under 'tenants obligations', I think this is pretty ropey. In order for this to be even remotley 'enforceable' I trust that Twinmum21 makes a copy of his landlord insurance policies terms and conditions available to all tenants with this clause? otherwise how is a tenant to know what 'may in any way affect the validity of the insurance of the property'?

Given that the AST I had to hand that I was quoting from, was our AST as Tenants, it isn't relevant. As stated I am a Landlord and a Tenant, I did not offer advice in favour of one or the other, but began at the point I would begin if I had a problem as one or the other, by checking the AST.

 

I offered advice to try and help, not to be patronised!

Edited October 21, 2010 by Twinmum21

[Aequitas]

It seems to me that all this number of locks business is a bit of a nonsense. Would the doors have been more difficult to force if all the locks/bolts had been done? Would the burglar have said: "Oh no! Three locks! I'm off!"? Seems like the landlord is trying to avoid making a claim. I do not see how the OP can be responsible since it as not he who forced the door. He certainly cannot be asked to pay for new doors. I think we also need to know if the OP was supplied with a copy of the insurance policy as otherwise how could he have known what the conditions were?

 

Turn it round and tell the landlord you are going to sue her for ten grand on the basis that her failure to let the property in a burglar proof state and/ or to advise you that all three locks needed to be done up was a breach of the covenant for quiet enjoyment. It's nonsense, but no more so than what the landlord is coming out with.

 

*

As to when a landlord can call on the deposit that is a matter of what the contract says. In the absence of anything to the contrary, the landlord can go to the deposit when there is a default and does not have to wait until the end of the term.

[wiosna30]

Hi,

I know, this is nonsece, doesn’t matter how many lock i will have the burglar will come any way.

Regarding her insurance – I didn’t see because she didn’t provide me with the copy, I will ask her tomorrow because she is coming again.

I am thinking that she doesn’t have insurance as a Landlord

Thanks guys, I know now what to tell her. J

[wiosna30]

Hi Guys,

I spoke with the Landlord and she told me that I don’t need to see her Landlord Insurance and I wrong that I need a copy. Please tell me where can I go to print it out to show her THAT SHE MUST PROVIDE A COPY TO ALL HER TENANTS?

[Planner]

Hi Guys,

 

I spoke with the Landlord and she told me that I don’t need to see her Landlord Insurance and I wrong that I need a copy. Please tell me where can I go to print it out to show her THAT SHE MUST PROVIDE A COPY TO ALL HER TENANTS?

 

I think the point was did you have a copy, rather than can you get a copy. If you never had a copy then you have no way of abiding by its contents. Getting a copy from the LL now is pointless for this incident.

 

Is the property now secure? ie is the door in a safe state?

 

I think you need to write to the landlord stating:

 

- You have taken further advice;

- It is her responsibility under s.11 landlord and tenant act 1985 to ensure the exterior of the property is kept in good repair and is secure;

- If the doors havent been secured by xx date, you will obtain x3 quotes and undetake word to secure the property yourself, which will then be deducted from the rent;

- You arent willing to pay for the damage to the door as it wasnt your fault and the property was secure ie door was locked;

- If she wishes to claim money from the deposit then she must use the TDS arbitration scheme and you will defend your position; and

- if she wishes you to abide by any clauses in the tenancy agreement that refer to third pary documentation, then she must make copies of that documentation available to you of she wishes to rely on them in the future.

[wiosna30]

Many thanks Planner for your help.

The doors are secure now – fixed BUT I don’t see any improvements, just a new lock.

 

Regards