PCN Stopped at Bus stop HELP!!!

[jimmy2007]

Hi everyone and thanks in advance for any help.

I got a PCN from Hounslow Council for stopping on a restricted Bus Stop or Stand.

In a few words i got the PCN by a CCTV for stopping less than one minute at a bus stop.

Thay sent the PCN and pictures of my car on the bus stop.

I checked all the signs and road marks and found that the distance between the mark "BUS" and "STOP" is much greater than 1000mm. It's almost 1600mm in contravention to the TSRGD.

Also on the PCN the indicated the location as "NEW ROAD". There are 4 different "NEW ROAD" in the borough of houslow.

My questions are:

 

1. Does the fact that the road markings do not comply with TSRGD, make the bus stop illegal and so the PCN not enforceable?

 

2. Do they need to specify exact location or is it fine as they did just a mention of the road name?

 

Thanks

 

Thank you to everyone.

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

Before any accurate advice can be given we would need to see where you are taking about. So can you post images showing the road markings and signage. Alteratively, give the exact location so we can see if it is covered on Google Street View. If it is here;

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=New+Road,+Hounslow&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.679199,46.362305&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=New+Rd,+Hounslow,+Greater+London+TW14+9,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.448217,-0.410635&spn=0,0.022638&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.448148,-0.410819&panoid=5OGoO1-Lvn7Ux9Xftwb0pw&cbp=12,196.07,,0,-6.84

 

you may have an appeal due to lack of signage as I cannot see any plate covering the stop.

 

It also may help if you can post the PCN up as well after 'washing' any personal details.

 

In the meantime I can tell you what a restricted bus stop or stand is and how it becomes a contravention. Basically they should be marked with a thick yellow line (about the total width of dy's) which should run along the length of the stop. This should be supported by a yellow plate bearing a 'clearway' symbol with the wording; 'no stopping except buses'. They do not require a traffic order. If these are correctly in place then by stopping to drop off/pick up in any other vehicle other than a bus operating on the route to which the stop is intended, then the offence is comitted.

 

Please supply the images so we can advise further.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Edited October 17, 2010 by sailor sam

[jimmy2007]

Hi and thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately I cannot post images or links.

Tha google map is an old picture.

In that particular spot the council has milked motorists for £45000 per quarter (average) accordingly to the local paper.

When someone found the bus stop to be illegal they where inundated with requests of refunds and changed the appearance of it.

I took all the measurements and looked at signs.

Everything complies except for the distance between the marks "BUS" and "STOP" which is 1600mm instead of 1000mm.

The strongest point so far seems to be that there are 4 "New Road" in the same borough.

Would it be wise to appeal saying that I went to New Road Hounslow and failed to locate the Bus Stop?

And when they reply with the rejection and possibly the exact location, would I have a case of contradiction in 2 official documents from their part?

Finally, Is there a law they have to comply when filling the PCN, and in particular, is there a law requirement to highlight the exact location of the alleged contravention?

Or they just need to state the name of the road?

In this case, for example, if the contravention happened on the M25 you would never know where to look!

Sorry for the number of questions, but i'm very confused and frustrated.

Thanks.

[jimmy2007]

You can get the pictures by going to photobucket.com.

Search people from the scroll down menu and enter latestaalgioco

Pictures are there in the recent upload or PCN folder

[starfarer]

2. Do they need to specify exact location or is it fine as they did just a mention of the road name?

 

I always assumed that exact location is needed as there will always be a chance that certain contraventions do not exist. As for an example Resident bay outside of house 24 but opposite of that house is single yellow line or outside of 24 is Disabled Bay and PCN issued (for DBay) with location at outside of 26 which is residential bay. But reading posts in forum, I think my assumptions are wrong.

 

As for the PCN you received, they probably had GPS co-ordinates for location (in photo). No point in pursuing this line.

[sailor sam]

Ok I've seen the pics. Unfortunately they don't show the whole 'picture' in that they don't show the entire bay and signage. My thoughts are that the issue of the distance between the words 'Bus' and 'Stop' painted on the road surface may be regarded as being a 'triffle' by an adjudicator. We have had cases before involving 'T' bars on yellow lines where this has happened dispite them being a requirement. However, it's important to remember that a restricted bus stop does not require a traffic order providing it is correctly signed and marked so the signage must be compliant. In the Google Street View images of the location i've posted above (although you havn't comfirmed that this is the right one), I don't think it is compliant because I cannot see any plates covering the stop. My final thought is indeed the location given on the PCN. I would of expected to see either a post code or another important identifying piece of additional info to 'New Road'. It does seem a tad vague so I think this is your strongest appeal point (assuming the necessary plates are present). Hopefully others will give thier opnions on this also.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[jimmy2007]

Hi, and thanks for the replies.

The Google streetview is an old picture.

Apparently on that particular spot the revenue generated in the first 4 months was just short of £50.000.

There was a petition because the CCTV was initially intended to prevent crime and also Bus Stop was not compliant and they suspended the issuing of fines.

A meeting was sheduled for July but I don't know what happened from that point on.

I can only assume that they "fixed" the signage and part of the road marks (see the curved end of the bus stop on streetview) and started milking the motorists again.

Would it be wise to appeal on the location point?

As I said there are 4 New Road in the borough.

Thanks

[jimmy2007]

I always assumed that exact location is needed as there will always be a chance that certain contraventions do not exist. As for an example Resident bay outside of house 24 but opposite of that house is single yellow line or outside of 24 is Disabled Bay and PCN issued (for DBay) with location at outside of 26 which is residential bay. But reading posts in forum, I think my assumptions are wrong.

 

As for the PCN you received, they probably had GPS co-ordinates for location (in photo). No point in pursuing this line.

 

I cannot see any GPS co-ordinates on the pictures.

Also, I don't understand why we have to exactly comply to the law every second of our life and they have the privilege to mark a bus stop as they please, fail to provide exact location on pcn and so on.

My thought is: the law is equal for everyone.

I must comply to the law 24/7 or I get done.

It must be the same for the council: TSRGD makes it clear how to mark a bus stop and they failed to comply.

Why are they allowed to break the law and fine us for it?

Sorry, I'm a bit frustrated.

[sailor sam]

I cannot see any GPS co-ordinates on the pictures.

Also, I don't understand why we have to exactly comply to the law every second of our life and they have the privilege to mark a bus stop as they please, fail to provide exact location on pcn and so on.

My thought is: the law is equal for everyone.

I must comply to the law 24/7 or I get done.

It must be the same for the council: TSRGD makes it clear how to mark a bus stop and they failed to comply.

Why are they allowed to break the law and fine us for it?

Sorry, I'm a bit frustrated.

 

They aren't allowed to 'break the law'. If you believe that the stop is incorrectly marked/signed than by all means appeal. I have to admit to wonder why you would stop there in the first place if the signage is in place and correct which you appear to be now saying it is. One of the reasons restricted bus stops exist is to prevent the scenario of buses having to stop in the middle of the road to pick up/set down passengers away from the kerb because of parked cars.

 

Thinking about the 'vague location on the PCN' issue; the image on the PCN clearly shows that you contravened the restriction. I'm not sure therefore whether it is necessary to have the exact location as there is photographic evidence of the offence being comitted. If however there was no image then you could argue that the offence did not occur unless the exact location is specified. However, I am quite happy to be corrected on that point.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[jimmy2007]

we have always stopped there because it is a bus stand and passengers are not picked up from there.

but buses don't stand there either.

That is because there is plenty of space in the bus area at the back of such stand.

No bus has ever stopped there.

They only started fineing people a few months ago as i said in my previous post.

With regards to the location, I could go to New Road Hounslow (another New Road) and take pictures of the whole street proving that there is no bus stop there.

Playing daft to make them re-issue the pcn with the exact location thus invalidating it.

What do you reckon?

[jimmy2007]

Today I looked at my diary and found that I was on duty at 11am.

In the first picture you can see me going away from the car at the alleged time 12:37pm.

That would only be possible if I was 2 hours late for work, or the time on their camera was not set properly.

The latter seems to be a more likely option given that I am still waiting for a reply to my request of full video footage (to see how long we were there for), evidence of the CCTV being an approved device as they say in the PCN and record of its mainteinance.

I could get a printout from my office to show that I was on a 11-19 shift.

What do you say?

[sailor sam]

If the stop is not in use then all this seems pretty strange. Having said that, if the stop is correctly marked with the required signage the fact that it is not in use is probably irrelevant. Your comment 'we always stop there' would also be irrelevant because you are simply contrveining the restriction. However, there may be some mileage in the information on the images being incorrect. The only problem is that they still show your car committing the offence at some point so your defence would need to show that YOU were somewhere else at the time so your car was being used by someone else which may open a new tin of worms.

 

It costs nothing to appeal (providing your still in time) so go for the 'vague location, the stop is not in use and the wrong time on the PCN' angle and see what happens.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[jimmy2007]

Thanks,

I'll do it asap

[jimmy2007]

Hi Guys,

I put together an appeal letter using bits and pieces from this site and others.

Could someone have a look and advise please?

 

Your Reference: PCN XXXXXXXX

 

RE: Formal representation

 

To Whom It May Concern:

Dear Sir or Madam,

With the present letter I would like to formally appeal to the PCN XXXXXXXXX.

The grounds for my representation are as follow:

1. On (Date) I requested CCTV footage of the alleged contravention as well as evidence of approval of the CCTV device and relative record of maintenance. (See photocopy attached)

You have failed to respond to my request and provide such evidence, in breach of your own promises.

I am now in the position of being forced to make a representation without any sort of evidence from your part, to avoid the 21 days limit and any increase in the PCN.

Because you have not provided evidence of approval of he CCTV device and relative maintenance record, I must assume that your device is not approved, making the PCN invalid for procedural impropriety.

And I quote The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007, Part 2, Section 6:

“A penalty charge shall not be imposed except on the basis of:

(a) a record produced by an approved device”…

 

2. I have searched in the London Borough of Hounslow for “New Road” where the alleged contravention took place and confusingly found three different ones. (See photocopy of London A-Z attached)

I visited the three sites with a considerable waste of time and money and I found that there is no bus stop in any of these three “New Road”. (See pictures attached)

This creates prejudice as the location is uncertain and not certain as required by regulations, making the same PCN invalid for procedural impropriety.

To support this I refer you to the attached copy of Statutory Register Entry N. 2060381000 (GINA ADAMOU V LONDON BOROUGH OF HARINGEY).

 

3. At the time of the contravention I was at my place of employment in Central London, (See employer printout attached) and my car was parked outside my house.

I have reasons to believe that, if the car in the pictures of your PCN is my car, the time and/or date of the contravention is incorrect, once again making the PCN invalid for procedural impropriety.

This time/date error is supported by the fact that you have failed to provide evidence of maintenance of the CCTV device.

 

I would take this opportunity to remind you that in exercising any of its functions under the statutory scheme, an authority must not only comply with the letter of the regulations, it also has a duty to act fairly.

Following R V The Secretary of State for the Home Department ex parte Doody 1994, 1 AC 531 at 560, per Lord Mustill:

“Where an Act of Parliament confers an administrative power there is a presumption that it will be exercised in a manner which is fair in all the circumstances.”

I would suggest that in this case you are operating in a manner which the adjudicators would not consider to be “in a manner which is fair in all the circumstances.”

I would be grateful if you could read this letter thoroughly considering each one of the grounds of appeal.

In conclusion, I do not accept that the PCN is valid for the above mentioned reasons and request it to be cancelled.

Also I take this opportunity to notify you that, should you decide to reject my representation, it is my intention to:

a) Appeal the Penalty Charge Notice to the Parking Adjudication Service

b) Make a formal complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman of maladministration causing injustice

 

I look forward to your early response.

 

Yours faithfully

[sailor sam]

Seems good to me. Like I said previously, you have nothing to loose at this stage.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.