First Debt Recovery - Help please!

[Liamhastings]

Ok, this is a bit of a long and unusual one - I think.

 

It started when I filled out an application for some couples therapy with a group called

london-counselling-psychotherapy online.

 

 

The application form is a normal, usually request for more information.

It asks what days would be good for you, but no-where does it say that you agree to do, well anything!

I didn’t receive anything back.

 

 

However one day I received a text from ‘LACAP’ telling me I had an appointment booked for a certain day.

To be honest I thought it was from a gym company

(As I had been receiving messages from LA Fitness at the time) and didn’t pay too much attention.

 

 

A few days later, when I looked at it again properly, I phoned the number to find out what it was

– and I was told it was the therapy group, and they had booked me an appointment.

Not even on, or in a time I had said I was usually free either.

 

 

But even if they had been – They never confirmed it with me or my partner;

as it turns out we were both working that day.

 

 

I informed the gentleman that I did not wish the appointment for then

and I had never requested an ’actual’ appointment,

just more information – Maybe a phone call or so about fees and times.

We parted and that was the end, or so I thought.

 

A few weeks later I started receiving Email requests for payment from ‘Paypal’ for £60.

I emailed the address back, explaining that I had no debt with this company.

 

A number of weeks later, I received a number of emails from ‘First Debt Recovery’, requesting payment.

I also received a letter too.

 

Then suddenly, I received a email from them saying this:

Dear Mr N,

We would like to express our sincere apologies to you with regards to the letter

you received from First Debt Recovery Ltd dated 3rd August 2010.

 

 

Our client Mr D Kirkpatrick trading as LACAP Ltd did not instruct us to send this letter, it was posted out to you in error.

 

 

Please ignore this letter, we deeply regret any inconvenience this may have caused you.

If you require any further clarification on the matter do not hesitate to contact us on 0845 307 6292 (option 2).

Thank you.

Kindest Regards,

Kerry

First Debt Recovery

 

Ok, I guessed, they realized their mistake and it’s now over. No it seems.

 

About a month or two later I had another PayPal request and then,

a letter from ‘First Debt Recovery’ – again.

This now said I owed £116 to them.

 

So I phone the company and was put through to a rather unsavoury type.

I explained the situation, and said that I pretty shocked this has gotten so far,

when as far as I can see, I’ve only had slight passing contact with this ‘LACAP’.

 

He told me that I need to contact them myself and sort it out.

I told him that it’s not my place to do this.

For one I don’t have any contact details

and two, I do not see why I should be taking my time to sort this out as I never agreed to anything!

 

The man became abusive.

He told me that he didn’t care, that I can shut up talking to him like that,

and he was trying to help, but now he’s printing another letter

and it’s going to cost me £166 and it’s on the way to me.

He said I’m going to be taken to court and get in even worse trouble if I don’t pay this now.

 

I was really taken aback by his tone and the way he changed,

I said, That I’ve every shocked by him, to which he replied that he hopes this has made my day

and that he was hanging up.

 

I phoned back to speak to the Kerry in hopes that she might be a bit more helpful,

but it seems FDR aren’t that large, because I’m pretty sure she was sitting next to him.

 

 

She also explained that the reason the apology was sent out was that

‘At that time, they had not been asked to pursue this debt. But now we have been.’ (?)

 

I continued to try and explain, but that fellow from before got back on, so I ended the conversation.

 

Now in my mind, I can’t in any universe, believe I could be liable for anything here.

But I know how... strange and complex the law can be.

Any advice? What steps I should take? I’d like to sort this out quickly.

On a side note, I did just move, I still have access to the old flat, for letters etc.

Should I give them my new address?

 

Ta!

Edited October 12, 2010 by Liamhastings

[Liamhastings]

Sorry, in my blind anger, I seem to have posted it twice. Please ignore this bit and in the meantime, enjoy some music.

La la la, da da da, do do do do, bo, la la la!

 

Seriously, please help!

Edited October 12, 2010 by Liamhastings

[Revenant]

Hi

 

Welcome to cag and I'm sure you'll get some great advice but in the mean time can I suggest that if you have used your real name in t you post you remove it asap

 

No point in giving any info away that could help the other side

 

Good luck

 

R

[Liamhastings]

Has anyone got any advice on what to do next?

[DonkeyB]

Write and demand proof that you owe them any money at all, such as a contract, an invoice or anything. If they have threatened legal action in any way, you could even use CPR31.

[dadofholly]

Firstly i believe under the distance selling regs you had the right to cancel - so no debt is owed as i believe it.

 

Have you raised a dispute under your paypal agreement simply stating that you did not receive the goods/service you (paid for) was asked to pay for?

 

You state paypal are involved - how did paypal become involved?

 

Who are the DCA claiming you owe the money to - is it paypal or the therapy company?

[harrassed senior]

You also need to make a complaint to Trading Standards and Office of Fair Trading, both against the whole thing, and also reporting this 'mans' I use the term loosly, attitude. You can do this online here: http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/contact

[Liamhastings]

I've emailed the main company 'LACAP', explaining my situation to them. they replied thus:

'Dear Liam,

1. A customer registered as yourself sent us a couple therapy application form on-line on 16 June

2010.

2. LACAP created an appointment for the initial consultation upon your request on 16 June. A email

This booking carried an email notification it was a chargeable occasion if unattended, or

cancelled without 48 hours notice.

3. A separate email about the initial consultation was sent to your email address, which also

stated that it was chargeable occasion if unattended, or cancelled without 48 hours notice.

4. The email address used was that which you are now mailing from.

5. Lacap texted on your cellphone xxxxxxxxxxx to let you know of the appointment on 16 June. The

text message was " Liam, Thank you for your application. Please check your e-mails for details of

your appointment at LACAP on Tuesday 22nd June at 5pm. Thank you - LACAP"

6. Before the appointment, a further reminder email was sent out on 19 June.

7. On 21 June a text reminder was sent to your cellphone xxxxxxxxxxxxx. The text message began with

"LACAP REMINDER"

8. You did not attended the appointment, so our administrator called and spoke to you on 22 June.

You stated that you did not know who the text message reminder was from and hadn't checked his

e-mails until the appointment day. You said that you would contact us to rearrange the appointment

9. On 06 July a Paypal invoice was sent by email as we did not hear from you.

10. In August a reminder for the invoice was sent by email.

11. As we did not send you the final warning, we asked First Debt Recovery not to pursue the

matter any further until we issue the final warning.

12. A papyal invoice reminder was sent by email on 25 September

13. The final notice for payment demand from LACAP was sent by email on 25 September

We have contacted you about the appointment by email three times and by text twice in advance, and

once after the appointment. You were notified very clearly that the appointment would be

chargeable if unattended, or cancelled without 48 hours notice. You have been asked to pay for the

appointment 4 times, yet remained completely unresponsive.

It is our opinion that this matter is correctly invoiced, and we have authorised our debt

collector service to proceed.

Yours faithfully,

Yoko Kirkpatrick

LACAP'

 

I replied with:

 

Dear Yoko

I'm afraid I do not agree with your assessment of this situation.

Firstly, no-where on your application form does it state that you will automatically assign a appointment without prior consultation. It states that:

' We want to make sure that your first meeting is with the therapist who is available at times that you are usually able to make. Please let us know in the box below times that you could commit to on a regular basis.'

Note the 'Times you could commit'.

However, not only did you fail to ensure I had the knowledge of this (And sending a text or email and assuming I have received the details is not a correct approach - The correct approach is a letter or telephone call) you also failed to assign an appointment INSIDE the times I stated convenient for my partner and I.

If you can please supply a copy of the times of my original submission, this can be confirmed.

In the meantime, I utterly refute your claims of any monies owed, and completely prepared for court proceedings to enforce action against 'LACAP' and ' First Debt Recovery' regarding the actions of both your companies

Regards

Liam '

Anymore ideas guys?

[Liamhastings]

I've written to consumerdirect, and am awaiting there reply, but I've had the following exchange from the 'trader':

 

Dear Liam,

*Your application said 'yes' to email contact.

*Your application said 'yes' to Tuesdays at 5pm.

*You only needed to have the courtesy to cancel. You were given a choice of media for that: text,

phone, email.

*In the event you remained discourteous enough to fail to respond to any follow up or email after

the event, until 1st Debt approached you.

I have reviewed again, and I am more than happy to let 1st Debt proceed on our behald.

Yours faithfully,

Donald

Manager LACAP

I am replying thus:

'Dear Yoko

1) You will notice that my application also said 'Yes' to phone contact too. You also took my home address, which you failed to utilize - Except to pass my details to a debt collection agency.

2) It is not correct that I have I said 'Yes' to Tuesdays at 5pm. I said 'Yes' to BEGIN available

BETWEEN Tuesdays at 5pm and 9pm along with Monday/Wednesday/Thursday/Friday. I have UNDER NO CIRCIMSTANCES ever agreed to an appointment specifically on Tuesday at this time WITHOUT PRIOR CONSULTATION AND CONFIRMATION.

3)It is not the case of having courtesy to cancel. It is due to now being aware of an arranged appointment. Your own records state that on 22/06/10:

'Patient stated that he didn't know who the text message reminder was from and hadn't checked his e-mails until today. Said he would contact us to rearrange. Phil'

I was not aware an appointment had been assigned by your company.

You arranged an appointment for the 22nd June and informed me on the 16th. Taking into account the 48 cancelation policy, and the 19th and 20th as non-working days (weekend), this gives me TWO days to receive and reply. I do not consider this acceptable practice.

4)I asked for more information from you, on your services and when I could arrange an appointment. I am under NO OBLIGATION to take an appointment after a simple enquiry. You state that I:

"Remained discourteous enough to fail to respond to any follow up or email after

the event, until 1st Debt approached you."

Less than 15 days after this 'appointment' you sent a simple PayPal request demanding payment, without even attempting to speak with me regarding the situation. In any case, I responded to PayPal directly.

Additionally, 'First Debt' sent an aforementioned apology letter stating:

‘We would like to express our sincere apologies to you with regards to the letter you received from First Debt Recovery Ltd dated 3rd August 2010.

Our client Mr D Kirkpatrick trading as LACAP Ltd did not instruct us to send this letter, it was posted out to you in error.

Please ignore this letter, we deeply regret any inconvenience this may have caused you.’

That was more than enough cause in my mind to consider the matter closed. However, LACAP and First Debt have now given several other conflicting accounts as to why this letter was sent.

Therefore I reject your reply.

I do not believe you have any basis to expect remuneration as no service was provided or no contract agreed.'

However, I'm not sure how to end the reply. What is the next step? Take them to court? Ignore them until they do something?

Any help please. This is becoming a right pain!

Regards!

[GenvievePipi]

I am having similar problems with LACAP and First Debt Recovery. My problem stems from having cancelled an appointment at LACAP. I acknowledge the amount of the original debt, however I am querying the amount of the fees from First Debt Recovery. First Debt Recovery have threatened me with court action. I have followed up with the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

I have been dealing with the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

 

Consumer Consultant

Financial Ombudsman Service

South Quay Plaza

183 Marsh Wall

London E14 9SR

 

 

RE: Complaint about First Debt Recovery, Ltd / LACAP

 

 

Dear Financial Ombudsman Service:

 

 

I am writing in response to your letter dated 06 October 2010.

 

Since I received your letter, I have had no response to address my complaint from First Debt Recovery Ltd. Instead I have received a Final Demand for Payment (enclosed) dated 02 November 2010. The letter demanded 7 days notice of “intention to commence County Court action to recover the debt” despite me only receiving it on 11 November 2010.

 

The paperwork enclosed provides the full correspondence, however I will provide you with a short re-cap of the situation.

 

On 07 September 2010, I received a Third party collection notice from First Debt Recovery, Ltd for the amount of £112.70. The actual amount of the debt was £57 which was owed to Kirkpatrick / LACAP. First Debt Recovery charged an additional £55.70 in fees. I do not dispute the original debt of £57. On 11 September 2010 I paid the £57 via cheque. Additionally, I sent a letter disputing the interest and costs. I asked for an itemized list of the costs. I stated that the Bank of England interest rate was .5% and that the interest charges were exorbitant. I stated that the amount of the “costs” were not in proportion to the amount of the debt and not in line with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance Review of 2006.

 

On 14 September 2010 after sending the cheque and the letter I received a harassing / abusive voicemail left by someone at First Debt Recovery who identified himself as [Name withheld]. In his message to me [Name withheld] acknowledged that First Debt Recovery are not allowed to charge 10% interest. He stated that First Debt Recovery can charge 8.0% above the Bank of England base rate which brings the interest up to 8.5%.

 

[Name withheld] also stated that I was correct that First Debt Recovery are not allowed to charge me £50 in fees.

 

He then stated that he was returning my cheque and that he would see me in court. He then abruptly hung up. I consider this sort of behaviour harassing and abusive. My cheque was never returned. It was deposited / cashed within a fortnight.

 

On 14 September 2010 I sent a letter of complaint to First Debt Recovery (enclosed) regarding the phone call I received. I have not yet received a response to that complaint. Additionally, on 17 September 2010 I sent a complaint form to you, the Financial Ombudsman Service. The form (enclosed) detailed the harassing voicemail as well as the exorbitant charges from First Debt Recovery.

 

On October 6, I received a response form you, [Name withheld] at the Financial Ombudsman service (enclosed) that acknowledged my complaint. You said, “On receipt of their final response, if you feel they have not put things right, or, alternatively, if you have not heard from them after those 8 weeks, please complete the enclosed complaint form and send it to us together with any supporting documentation.

 

So I waited…. And waited, and on 11 November 2010 I received a response from First Debt Recovery (dated 02 November 2010) that did not address my original complaint. Instead was a final demand for the balance of £55.70 (enclosed).

 

On 12 November 2010 I asked my partner [Name withheld] call First Debt Recovery to find out what was going on. The man who spoke to [Name withheld] was rude and abrupt. [Name withheld] calmly pointed out that by law they were not allowed to charge 10% interest. The man said he’d see us in court!

 

I would appreciate if you would please follow up with this complaint as I haven't been given a sufficient answer from First Debt Recovery.

 

Sincerely,

[Name withheld]

 

Please keep me updated with your outcome.

[ScarletPimpernel]

There are three aspects of these cases that strike me:

 

1. There does not appear to be an established contract. This is extremely important in counselling, and the first meeting is usually to determine whether or not you think you can work with the counsellor, and vice versa. The contract is then agreed - such things as the number of sessions will be included, and fees should certainly be part of it. People who are having difficulties in their lives may not miss appointments for perfectly good reasons, and so it is not unreasonable for counsellors to show flexibility.

2. Confidentiality is a fundamental requirement of counselling. The fact that an individual is undergoing or even contemplating counselling is confidential, and should not be disclosed to any third party without the individual's express consent; there are some exceptions but they do not apply here. Disclosing details to a debt collection agency is a clear breach of such confidentiality, and I would suggest that an accredited counsellor is on rocky ground if he cannot show not only that consent was given, but also that it was informed.

3. People who seek counselling are often emotionally vulnerable. Trust, honesty and respect are fundamental principles of counselling. It does not require the brains of an Archbishop to see how the behaviour demonstrated in the cases above trample all over these principles.

 

I understand that counsellors need to generate income, but they should do so ethically. Good counsellors will be members of a professional body such as, for example, the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy, and abide by its code of practice. Others should probably be avoided.

[D.Kirkpatrick]

This is Donald Kirkpatrick, from Lacap.co.uk. -

 

On our side, we clearly post on the website that if you send us an email asking for a consultation, we will email you back with a consultation time. What L*** seems to be complaining about is that we did just what we said we would. It does not seem odd that we delivered the service. We followed that up with reminder emails and phone SMStext.

 

What does seem odd is that L*** is so content to shirk his own side of things. We just ask that people are responsible enough to keep to the arrangements that they make. In the event, the therapist was there, the session was held - it is just that L*** himself was not courteous enough to either attend or let us know that he was not coming. The service was delivered in L***'s abscence, if you like.

 

Our website advises "applicants by email" the following: "Services that are to be provided within 7 working days. LACAP should always offer meetings to you as soon as possible, unless you indicate that we should give you a longer period to decide and reflect. That means that there may often be less than seven working days between us notifying you of an appointment and the appointment time itself. You are agreeing that the service may start before the end of the Consumer Protection Act cooling-off period. All our initial appointments, though, allow a 48 hour notice of cancellation without charges to you, or if made within that 48 hour period, the automatic right to reschedule that meeting to a later time in the next 30 day period. Late cancelled, or unattended meetings may be charged by us...."

 

We then offer an option to NOT have us arrange an appointment "...I do NOT want my appointment to be scheduled in the next 7 working days..."

 

We do this because we are trying to help people that want to be seen urgently! Sometimes a potential suicide is just NOT helped by a 'consumer cooling off period'

 

 

My comment is that irresponsible users like L*** at the end of the day harm potential users. Because services like ours get so fed up with people signing up for services without taking responsibility, this impacts our stance to others, making us more defensive, wordy and legalistic. Not what a therapy service wants to be doing, and not how a person in distress wants to feel welcomed......

 

 

In the event, L*** has simply used the excuse that he has moved address, and is untraceable. Good for him!

 

 

It is because of consumer attitudes like this that GP practices and NHS Trusts are having to consider the idea of charging for services that are rendered but not used. Perhaps Consumer Rights also need to be considered alongside Personal Responsibility?

Edited January 2, 2011 by D.Kirkpatrick

[D.Kirkpatrick]

Donald Kirkpatrick again - from LACAP

 

Oh yes....

 

and after sending in his application email L*** was directed to a "Confirmation Sent" page that says:

 

"........Thank you. We can confirm that your details

have just been correctly submitted to Lacap!

 

Your application for individual counselling or psychotherapy will be looked at by the Referrals Therapist later today, or early tomorrow morning if you have posted us after 5.30pm. The Referrals Therapist will get back in touch with you, having set up a first meeting with your psychotherapist at the times that you have requested.

You should expect us to email you with details of that appointment to the email account that you have supplied us with.

Exceptionally, we might offer meetings at less than 48 hours notice, in which case we will also text you on the mobile phone number that you have given us, or call you if you do not have a text service.................."

 

If anyone thinks that this is in some ways an invitation to ignore your email box - please do let me know.

L*** originally mailed us at 10:19pm....and on a Friday night....

hmmmm........

Edited January 2, 2011 by D.Kirkpatrick

[Bazooka Boo]

I wonder if you should perhaps put your version of events in a letter to Liam? After all if it is a professional attitude you are trying to convey to potential customers, I strongly doubt that they will appreciate you airing grievances on an open forum. I thought confidentiality was the cornerstone of any medical profession?

I wouldn't put my trust in your organisation now.

[labrat]

quick question

 

your site states

 

We will share your personal information with another health care provider, facility, pharmacist, etc. . . only if your inquiry is related to that agency, if it is part of your request, or if we are required to do so by law.

 

where does that list debt collectors.

 

 

it also states "If you have questions about therapy or about lacap use the "Email Enquiry" form"

 

however it is only when you click on the email form that it informs you in small print above the form that you book an appointment, these statements obviously controdict each other.

 

 

the last point that i would like to make is that anyone feeling mislead by this company or that feel that there confidentiality has been breached by passing on the details of people awaiting therapy should not only complain to trading standereds but may also wish to make a complaint to the general medical council - as these have the powers to remove the right to practice from medical practitioners which i would hope all non-cowboy therapists are

[caledfwlch]

Definately a company to not get involved with!

I like the way the gentleman thinks his company can ride roughshod over consumer LAW because someone might perhaps, possibly, maybe be suicidal....

 

Clearly a service to avoid - and the fact they have come onto a public forum like this makes it seem like for them, professionalism is just a long word in a dictionary. Reminds me of that vegetable service one

[ScarletPimpernel]

Firstly, the GMC does not regulate counsellors. There are a number of professional bodies, but amazingly there is no requirement for a counsellor to be registered with any of them. Indeed, anyone can call themselves a counsellor or therapist.

 

I am surprised that anyone who considers themselves to be a professional counsellor should breach confidentiality in the way we have seen above.

 

However, some basic research into LACAP raises some issues of serious concern:

 

- LACAP is not registered as a Data Controller with the Information Commissioner

 

- the company's accounts are shown as overdue at Companies House

 

- their website does not meet the legal requirements imposed by the Companies Act.

 

- LACAP's website states that it was formed as a Charitable Unincorporated Organisation in 2000, yet the legislation permitting this was only enacted in the Charities Act 2006, but further legislation is required to put it into effect, and this is not planned to be put through Parliament until 2011. More to the point, LACAP is in fact a limited company, formed in 2009. Whilst limited companies can have charitable status, they need to be registered with the Charities Commission. LACAP is not so registered. It may be that the statements on LACAP's GP referral page breach CPUTR.

 

The BACP, with whom some of LACAP's therapists are registered, expects its members to comply with its ethical framework (and we also know that CPUTR has specific requirements relating to codes of conduct). This framework includes the following:

 

Being trustworthy is regarded as fundamental to understanding and resolving ethical issues. Practitioners who adopt this principle: act in accordance with the trust placed in them; strive to ensure that clients’ expectations are ones that have reasonable prospects of being met; honour their agreements and promises; regard confidentiality as an obligation arising from the client’s trust; restrict any disclosure of confidential information about clients to furthering the purposes for which it was originally disclosed.

 

 

Now, Mr Kirkpatrick, how does that make you feel?

[Bazooka Boo]

I'm just wondering who I should be complaining to about LACAP?

[harrassed senior]

A complaint should, in my opinion be made to the Information Commissioner with respect to Data Protection and handling.

[Bazooka Boo]

I would if it were my data they were publishing on open forums, just feel that an organisation such as this should act professionally and treat customers with a little more respect and decorum!

[D.Kirkpatrick]

Donald Kirkpatrick again.

 

Well, good grief....

 

If my company is getting bad-mouthed on a public forum, with misinformation posted about it, I certainly expect a right to reply without criticism of that right!

 

My post added information about how our online booking service works. And, it does work for the vast, vast majority of people who are looking for a counselling service and who can be responsible for the actions that they take. It is very unclear to me in what way anyone thought I had added any kind of information that the original poster had not already put in the public forum?

 

Our website clearly states: "...Lacap was formed in September 2000 as a not-for-profit org. under a written constitution...That formation was disbanded in 2002, and Lacap has since been run by Donald & Yoko in partnership...Lacap became a limited company in spring 2009...."

 

 

The issue of confidentiality: I would ask any contributor so far, how they think a company can go about recovering due debts from people who are refusing to pay, without passing on contact details? Or, is it the opinion here that any bad debt is - in principle - never to be collected?

 

 

This company is extremely reluctant in this respect, and we would only ever venture down this route when the respondent has resolutely refused to engage with us.

 

 

The principle at stake here is a very simple one. If a person has booked an hour with the therapist, and in the event does not use that hour because they didn't turn up... who should pay for that hour? The therapist or the person that booked?

[Bazooka Boo]

Ooh dear, LACAP sounds like just the company I would recommend to my enemies. How very unprofessional, is that indicative of the whole of your company, or just you?

Are LACAP regulated by anyone? I definitely believe a complaint is in order now.

No one is saying you don't have the right to object to the criticism caste at your company, but it is much more professional and advisable not to do so over an open forum like this, it simply looks very bad on you and your company. (IMO)

Edited January 3, 2011 by Bazooka Boo

[D.Kirkpatrick]

Duplicate Post - sorry about that

Edited January 3, 2011 by D.Kirkpatrick
Duplicate Post - sorry about that

[Bazooka Boo]

That said Donald, you have both opened up an avenue of conversation, so would it be better to deal with this amicably, and address each others views as to why this has come about? Not on the open forum obviously!

[D.Kirkpatrick]

But this is where the criticism is posted...

Where else do you expect me to reply too?

Edited January 3, 2011 by D.Kirkpatrick
Duplicate posting