Stopping on zebra crossing zig zags - please help

[MelFell]

On Friday I stopped on zig zag lines on the approach to a zebra crossing (the zig zags that are outside my house). I did this as I needed to reverse into my drive (otherwise I'd have to reverse out onto a busy main road).

I indicated in good time and slowed down and stopped. A car that was some way behind me edged closer and closer, so I put my car into reverse (to indicate my intentions) foot still on brake to show that I was stationary, the driver of the car behind then sounded the horn and pulled along side me.

The passenger flashed his police badge and told me to move off because I was breaking the law parking on the approach to the zebra crossing. He said I could get 6 points for the offence. I told him I was trying to get into my drive, but he said it didn't matter and that I had to drive off immediately.

My question is, how can I legally get into my drive when the zig zags go across it/ what can I do in future to get into my own driveway?

Please help!!!

[Jamberson]

I wouldn't worry about it. You were not parking there. He was just annoyed as he had to steer around you. In any case, he told you to drive off immediately, which is what you were intending to do - backwards of course.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

It's "stopping" not "parking" that is the issue.

 

The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/2400/made

 

Prohibition against the stopping of vehicles in controlled areas

 

20.—(1) For the purposes of this regulation and regulations 21 and 22 the word “vehicle” shall not include a pedal bicycle not having a sidecar attached to it, whether or not additional means of propulsion by mechanical power are attached to the bicycle.

 

(2) Except as provided in regulations 21 and 22 the driver of a vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it to stop in a controlled area.

But in any event:

 

Further exceptions to regulation 20

 

22.—(1) Regulation 20 does not prohibit the driver of a vehicle from stopping it in a controlled area—

 

(a)for so long as may be necessary to enable the vehicle to be used for the purposes of—

 

(i)any building operation, demolition or excavation;

 

(ii)the removal of any obstruction to traffic;

 

(iii)the maintenance, improvement or reconstruction of a road; or

 

(iv)the laying, erection, alteration, repair or cleaning in or near the crossing of any sewer or of any main, pipe or apparatus for the supply of gas, water or electricity, or of any telecommunications apparatus kept installed for the purposes of a telecommunications code system or of any other telecommunications apparatus lawfully kept installed in any position,

 

but only if the vehicle cannot be used for one of those purposes without stopping in the controlled area; or

(b)if the vehicle is a public service vehicle being used—

 

(i)in the provision of a local service; or

 

(ii)to carry passengers for hire or reward at separate fares,

 

and the vehicle, having proceeded past the crossing to which the controlled area relates, is waiting in that area in order to take up or set down passengers; or

 

©if he stops the vehicle for the purpose of making a left or right turn.

 

(2) In paragraph (1) “local service” has the meaning given in section 2 of the Transport Act 1985(1) but does not include an excursion or tour as defined by section 137(1) of that Act.

 

Rozzer was being a bit of an ar$e IMHO.

 

To answer your fundamental question, can you not drive into your drive and reverse out?

Edited October 11, 2010 by Bernie_the_Bolt

[MelFell]

I could drive into my drive and then reverse out, however, I thought it was illegal to reverse onto a main road, so wouldn't that get me into trouble too?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

No law against it but you could get picked up by "catch all" laws like "driving without due consideration" etc..

 

Here's what Highway code says:

 

201

Do not reverse from a side road into a main road. When using a driveway, reverse in and drive out if you can.

 

What you could do is to write to your local nick and explain the score asking for their advice.

 

Bottom line is what you were doing was an exemption from the prohibition against stopping and you were following the HC to boot.

 

I stand by my earlier views on the copper!

[sailor sam]

No law against it but you could get picked up by "catch all" laws like "driving without due consideration" etc..

 

Here's what Highway code says:

 

 

 

What you could do is to write to your local nick and explain the score asking for their advice.

 

Bottom line is what you were doing was an exemption from the prohibition against stopping and you were following the HC to boot.

 

I stand by my earlier views on the copper!

 

I agree. As long as you are not stopping/waiting within the zig-zag markings for the purpose of allowing dropping off or picking up ect, then no offence is being comitted. As for driving into your drive; you may also have to stop to allow a pedestrian to walk past the entrance of your drive which would amount to the same thing in my book. I think Bernie's advice of asking you local nick makes scense to clarify the position.

[MelFell]

Thank you so much for your advice. I'll write a letter as advised - I just think it could have been handled better, but I think as pointed out, I'd just got on their nerves for being in their way.

Mel

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Best of luck! Let us know how you get on.

[Dragons Dennis]

You may stop within zig-zags. How else can people safely cross!

 

The plod is an arse. You can legally reverse on zig zags PROVIDED you do not reverse over a zebra crossing. It is difficult. TBH I would reverse out in this case as it will casue you a lot less hassle.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

You may stop within zig-zags. How else can people safely cross!

 

Curiously, even that is structured as an exemption

 

You can legally reverse on zig zags PROVIDED you do not reverse over a zebra crossing.

 

Are you sure, I see no prohibition - I could have missed it.

[Cobra11]

I would be careful, found this link and common sense does not prevail. safepeed.org.uk / forum/ viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22267 (not able to post full link as I have less than 20 postings, no spaces in the link) Yep, and it sounds like he was being a pain.,

[my-spirit-soars-free]

I got done - I was stopped in a queue of traffic, while people were crossing the zebra. My husband ran over to me, and got into the car. I moved off as soon as the car in front moved off.

 

For that offence I got a fine, and three points on my licence... I still don't know what I, as the driver, was supposed to have done wrong.

 

Common sense does not seem to prevail.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I got done - I was stopped in a queue of traffic, while people were crossing the zebra. My husband ran over to me, and got into the car. I moved off as soon as the car in front moved off.

 

For that offence I got a fine, and three points on my licence... I still don't know what I, as the driver, was supposed to have done wrong.

 

Common sense does not seem to prevail.

 

What you did wrong was to allow your husband to get in whilst you were in the area covered by the zig-zags. It's not a matter of common sense not prevailing - in fact it could be said that what you did was contrary to common sense!

[green_and_mean]

What you did wrong was to allow your husband to get in whilst you were in the area covered by the zig-zags. It's not a matter of common sense not prevailing - in fact it could be said that what you did was contrary to common sense!

 

Not being there to witness the situation its hard to judge but I think its a valid defence to say you were already stopped. If you were at a red light on a controlled crossing and had to stop by law I do not think you are guilty if someone then gets out the car. I'm sure the law was drafted for the 'stopping' to be an offence not the activity surrounding it, getting out of a car is not an offence on a crossing, if you are stopped for an exempted reason and stopped no longer than the exemption would require then I'm sure boarding and alighting is permitted. Another exemption is stopped at the direction of a Police officer, does this mean that if you get stopped on a crossing by a PC and then a passenger jumps in the car he can do you for stopping on a crossing? What may have happened in this case is the traffic started moving and there was a slight delay whilst the passenger got in, in which case the offence occured.

[my-spirit-soars-free]

No, no delay - though I accept there could have been. It was two traffic wardens, ticketing everyone who stopped on the zig zags to pick up a passenger that day - and they said I had stopped to let my husband in. I didn't, I stopped as there was a car in front of me, and my husband was actually waiting further down the road, where I would normally have picked him up. They said that the offence was committed as soon as he opened the door while my car was not moving, and the reason I had stopped did not matter.

 

I said it was unfair, I could not have stopped my husband from getting in, and I said so - and their comment was "well, get your husband to pay the fine then". I was actually telling him off when I was pulled over... and no, I had not seen the officers, I was cross with him for doing something that daft.

 

My point is not that it was a sensible thing to do - just that I was not the person who had done anything wrong.

[green_and_mean]

No, no delay - though I accept there could have been. It was two traffic wardens, ticketing everyone who stopped on the zig zags to pick up a passenger that day - and they said I had stopped to let my husband in. I didn't, I stopped as there was a car in front of me, and my husband was actually waiting further down the road, where I would normally have picked him up. They said that the offence was committed as soon as he opened the door while my car was not moving, and the reason I had stopped did not matter.

 

I said it was unfair, I could not have stopped my husband from getting in, and I said so - and their comment was "well, get your husband to pay the fine then". I was actually telling him off when I was pulled over... and no, I had not seen the officers, I was cross with him for doing something that daft.

 

My point is not that it was a sensible thing to do - just that I was not the person who had done anything wrong.

 

Maybe if you had gone to Court the outcome would have been different.

[sailor sam]

Not being there to witness the situation its hard to judge but I think its a valid defence to say you were already stopped. If you were at a red light on a controlled crossing and had to stop by law I do not think you are guilty if someone then gets out the car. I'm sure the law was drafted for the 'stopping' to be an offence not the activity surrounding it, getting out of a car is not an offence on a crossing, if you are stopped for an exempted reason and stopped no longer than the exemption would require then I'm sure boarding and alighting is permitted. Another exemption is stopped at the direction of a Police officer, does this mean that if you get stopped on a crossing by a PC and then a passenger jumps in the car he can do you for stopping on a crossing? What may have happened in this case is the traffic started moving and there was a slight delay whilst the passenger got in, in which case the offence occured.

 

Yes you are. By dropping off or picking up within the zig zag area (whether it be a zebra or pelican crossing), you are consindered to be parked thus contrveining the zig zags and the responsibility lies with the driver I believe.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[sailor sam]

No, no delay - though I accept there could have been. It was two traffic wardens, ticketing everyone who stopped on the zig zags to pick up a passenger that day - and they said I had stopped to let my husband in. I didn't, I stopped as there was a car in front of me, and my husband was actually waiting further down the road, where I would normally have picked him up. They said that the offence was committed as soon as he opened the door while my car was not moving, and the reason I had stopped did not matter.

 

I said it was unfair, I could not have stopped my husband from getting in, and I said so - and their comment was "well, get your husband to pay the fine then". I was actually telling him off when I was pulled over... and no, I had not seen the officers, I was cross with him for doing something that daft.

 

My point is not that it was a sensible thing to do - just that I was not the person who had done anything wrong.

 

 

I think you will find they are correct. By opening the door and getting in (or out) renders the vehicle as 'parked' thus comitting the offence. Unless you can prove otherwise, the driver is responsible. If you believe your husband acted outside of your control, then you could elect to go to court but then your husband may face prosecution as he would have to give evidence against himself.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

Its not an offence to park on a zig zag its an offence to stop! However there are exemptions..

 

Exceptions to regulation 20

 

21. Regulation 20 does not prohibit the driver of a vehicle from stopping it in a controlled area—

(a)if the driver has stopped it for the purpose of complying with regulation 25 or 26;

(b)if the driver is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond his control or it is necessary for him to stop to avoid injury or damage to persons or property; or

©when the vehicle is being used for police, fire brigade or ambulance purposes.

 

Precedence of pedestrians over vehicles at Zebra crossings

 

25.—(1) Every pedestrian, if he is on the carriageway within the limits of a Zebra crossing, which is not for the time being controlled by a constable in uniform or traffic warden, before any part of a vehicle has entered those limits, shall have precedence within those limits over that vehicle and the driver of the vehicle shall accord such precedence to any such pedestrian.

 

 

There is nothing in the regulations that states you cannot get out of the vehicle if legally stopped. Its nonsense according to your logic if you stop due to an accident that you cannot exit the car as stopping for reasons beyond your control is permitted but getting out the car isn't?

 

What you are suggesting is akin to saying if I park legally in a loading bay to load and my wife goes to the shop whilst I'm doing so I should get a PCN because shopping is not permitted whilst parked in a loading bay.

Edited October 14, 2010 by green_and_mean

[sailor sam]

Its not an offence to park on a zig zag its an offence to stop! However there are exemptions..

 

Why do you always insist on splitting hairs just to prove a point? You know full well that you cannot pick up or drop off within the zig zag area and to do so you have to be parked in my book.

 

Exceptions to regulation 20

 

21. Regulation 20 does not prohibit the driver of a vehicle from stopping it in a controlled area—

(a)if the driver has stopped it for the purpose of complying with regulation 25 or 26;

(b)if the driver is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond his control or it is necessary for him to stop to avoid injury or damage to persons or property; or

©when the vehicle is being used for police, fire brigade or ambulance purposes.

 

You even provide the relevant regulations!!

 

 

Precedence of pedestrians over vehicles at Zebra crossings

 

25.—(1) Every pedestrian, if he is on the carriageway within the limits of a Zebra crossing, which is not for the time being controlled by a constable in uniform or traffic warden, before any part of a vehicle has entered those limits, shall have precedence within those limits over that vehicle and the driver of the vehicle shall accord such precedence to any such pedestrian.

 

 

There is nothing in the regulations that states you cannot get out of the vehicle if legally stopped. Its nonsense according to your logic if you stop due to an accident that you cannot exit the car as stopping for reasons beyond your control is permitted but getting out the car isn't?

 

Who has mentioned an accident? Of course in those circumstances you would be allowed to exit a vehicle if involved in an accident. A bit of a stupid example to be honest! You really are desperate to demonstrate that you are correct by using ridiculous comparisons!

 

 

What you are suggesting is akin to saying if I park legally in a loading bay to load and my wife goes to the shop whilst I'm doing so I should get a PCN because shopping is not permitted whilst parked in a loading bay.

 

Yet another stupid and irrelevant comparison. What has a loading bay got to do with a pedestrian crossing?? G & M, feel free to argue (as you usually do) the point but you should know as well as I do what the rules are regarding stopping/parking/dropping off/picking up on pedestrian crossing zig zags so I really do not know what you are trying to prove here. Why don't you try it a few times; parking/stopping on zig zags and drop your wife off and see what happens.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[my-spirit-soars-free]

I did not stop and drop anyone off - I stopped, because I could not keep going as there was a car in front of me. My issue is with the logic- how does my husband opening a door mean that I have committed an offence? I could not communicate with him before he opened the door, I had arranged to pick him up at a different part of the road - so why, just because I am driving the car, am I responsible for his actions?

 

If it had been a car jacker who opened the door, would I still have committed an offence?

 

I have no issue with the concept that I may not stop to pick up on a zig zag - but I did not do that, my intention was to continue down the road and pick up my husband as normal, I stopped for a perfectly legal reason and I therefore still feel, and always will, that it was wrong to "do" me - I am not responsible for another adults actions.

[sailor sam]

I did not stop and drop anyone off - I stopped, because I could not keep going as there was a car in front of me. My issue is with the logic- how does my husband opening a door mean that I have committed an offence? I could not communicate with him before he opened the door, I had arranged to pick him up at a different part of the road - so why, just because I am driving the car, am I responsible for his actions?

 

If it had been a car jacker who opened the door, would I still have committed an offence?

 

I have no issue with the concept that I may not stop to pick up on a zig zag - but I did not do that, my intention was to continue down the road and pick up my husband as normal, I stopped for a perfectly legal reason and I therefore still feel, and always will, that it was wrong to "do" me - I am not responsible for another adults actions.

 

I can only repeat my advice given in my post 18. Obviously in extreme circumstances such as the example you describe, the officer on hand to issue a ticket would take into account such events. Others may include you breaking down or being involved in an accident but lets be sensible about this, the law allows discretion about these situations. Personally, I don't think a CEO/police officer would be issuing a ticket for picking up a car jacker on zig zags unless it was Dom Jolly in disguise. And another point; isn't your husband aware of the rules about stopping on pedestrian crossings? You could appeal on the ground you describe but it may implicate your husband if you do.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

Why do you always insist on splitting hairs just to prove a point? You know full well that you cannot pick up or drop off within the zig zag area and to do so you have to be parked in my book.

 

 

 

You even provide the relevant regulations!!

 

 

 

Who has mentioned an accident? Of course in those circumstances you would be allowed to exit a vehicle if involved in an accident. A bit of a stupid example to be honest! You really are desperate to demonstrate that you are correct by using ridiculous comparisons!

 

 

 

 

Yet another stupid and irrelevant comparison. What has a loading bay got to do with a pedestrian crossing?? G & M, feel free to argue (as you usually do) the point but you should know as well as I do what the rules are regarding stopping/parking/dropping off/picking up on pedestrian crossing zig zags so I really do not know what you are trying to prove here. Why don't you try it a few times; parking/stopping on zig zags and drop your wife off and see what happens.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

I am not splitting hairs we are dealing with the law NOT what you consider SHOULD be the law!

It was you that said by getting out the car you would be considered as parked.....why? You have already stopped what has parking got to do with a stopping offence??

I mentioned an accident because that is one of the exemptions for stopping, it is not a ridiculous comparison. Where in the LAW does it state you can get out the car whilst stopped for an accident, or stopped by the Police, or driving a fire engine, or if you break down but NOT if you stop to allow pedestrians to cross??

The loading bay was to demonstrate if you are legally stopped/parked you cannot get a PCN because another activity takes place. If you are going to argue at least give a credible argument rather than just rubbish me because you think you know whats right.....but clearly do not.

Please can you show me in the regulations where it says its an offence to get out of a car in a controlled crossing area?

[green_and_mean]

Obviously in extreme circumstances such as the example you describe, the officer on hand to issue a ticket would take into account such events. Others may include you breaking down or being involved in an accident but lets be sensible about this, the law allows discretion about these situations.

 

The law does not allow discretion the law has exemptions (SUCH AS STOPPING TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO CROSS), mitigation can be given for breaking the law but that is down to the judicial system the law is black and white other wise it would not be LAW it would be GUIDANCE.

[sailor sam]

I am not splitting hairs we are dealing with the law NOT what you consider SHOULD be the law!

It was you that said by getting out the car you would be considered as parked.....why? You have already stopped what has parking got to do with a stopping offence??

I mentioned an accident because that is one of the exemptions for stopping, it is not a ridiculous comparison. Where in the LAW does it state you can get out the car whilst stopped for an accident, or stopped by the Police, or driving a fire engine, or if you break down but NOT if you stop to allow pedestrians to cross??

The loading bay was to demonstrate if you are legally stopped/parked you cannot get a PCN because another activity takes place. If you are going to argue at least give a credible argument rather than just rubbish me because you think you know whats right.....but clearly do not.

Please can you show me in the regulations where it says its an offence to get out of a car in a controlled crossing area?

 

If I must! I really would of thought you would of known this!

 

Highway code rule with the relevant regs;

 

191

 

You MUST NOT park on a crossing or in the area covered by the zig-zag lines. You MUST NOT overtake the moving vehicle nearest the crossing or the vehicle nearest the crossing which has stopped to give way to pedestrians.

 

[Laws ZPPPCRGD regs 18, 20 & 24, RTRA sect 25(5) & TSRGD regs 10, 27 & 28]

 

Now you are going to say; 'it dosn't mention anything about getting in/out of a car'. Well I would of thought you would have to be parked/stopped first to allow that to happen!

Edited October 14, 2010 by sailor sam