Incasso (on behalf of IQor)

[smarties21]

A company called iQor sent a letter to my sister informing her that she owes money to their client. We didn't waste time responding and asked for a copy of the credit agreement. They replied after the 12+2 time with what looked to me like a partially filled out online application form with the word agreement at the top and my sister's signature at the bottom. It doesn't have the full terms it should have and, as it was applied for online, I don't believe that signature was originally there for one moment.

 

We responded with a letter saying that the agreement didn't have the prescribed terms and iQor soon responded. Here's what they said:

 

Thank you for your letter dated 19-02-2009 regarding the above-mentioned account.

 

Please be advised that should you wish anyone to stop processing data about you a Data Protection Act 1998 notice must be served to the Data Controller not the Data Processor and we act in this case as the Data Processor.

 

We understand that your request for a copy agreement is the only reason that your account is in dispute and if the copy of this Credit Agreement is provided and it satisfactorily shows that the account is legitimate and outstanding it would be inappropriate for any creditor to act on your Section 10, Data Protection Act 1998 notice.

 

Our Client, Halifax Plc (HBOS), believes that the copy of your credit agreement that they have provided is legible and compliant with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

iQor Recovery Services Ltd is acting in good faith and on the instructions of our Client in our attempts to collect the balance that out Client believes to be outstanding.

 

Please contact us at your earliest convenience with your repayment proposals.

 

Your account has been place on hold for 2 weeks to allow time for your response.

 

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me either by post, email or on my direct line.

 

Our time is quickly running out and I have no idea what I'm meant to do now. Please give us some advice, I really hate asking but I'm at a loss.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Note: I did start talking about this on another thread but I decided it was better in its own thread so it wouldn't get mixed up with the other DCA my sister has had dealings with. Sorry if this is frowned upon.

[tendogs]

Can you post up the agreement? with all personal details removed

[tendogs]

Most people on here use photobucket

[cerberusalert]

Can you scan and upload what they've sent? After removing identifying details.

[tendogs]

I'm off to bed now but will look in tomorrow

[cymruambyth]

Can you please give some extra information, such as,when was the alleged debt taken out and can you scan the document that you received with all personal details hidden.

I believe that there are different rules for online applications.

[smarties21]

Thank you for all the replies!

 

Here are the scans. Click to see them bigger.

 

First up is the letter they sent.

 

 

Secondly, this is what they say is the agreement. My sister remembers filling in the online form but she doesn't remember it being sent for her to sign.

 

 

It may take a while to know the exact date (if it isn't correct) but it was around the date written 2nd April 2005.

 

Thanks for taking a look. I hope I wasn't wrong to send them the letter I mentioned earlier...

[PGH7447]

Looks like you requested a card they said yes and sent that for you to sign which you then must have sent back.

 

did it come with any T&C's?

 

and the letter from igor is their usual template stuff.

 

are there any charges on the account?

[fuzzybobble]

If I'm remembering this correctly.....

An agreement from before May 2005 must contain the pescribed terms within the signature document and cannot be in another document or referred to in another document.

 

It's simalar to the one they sent me.

 

Also it states that no repayments cover, but have they actually charged that on the statements for the card? On mine they have.

 

Also have they sent a Default Notice? If they have, post that here too, as I can bet they messed that up too.

 

 

Don't worry too much about the 14 days they put your account on hold for. DCA's love to give deadlines to intimidate you. I've kept them waiting a month for my response and they haven't started demanding payments either.

 

I suspect that once they know you're using CAG template letters, they know they're likely to lose out.

Edited March 4, 2009 by fuzzybobble

[smarties21]

Thanks for all the replies. I'll try and explain and answer everything the best I can.

 

To PGH7447:

 

- what you describe is possible but she does not remember being sent anything to sign. It's years ago now though so it's hard to say for sure

 

- what they sent is exactly what it shows, so just that little box with a bit of writing in

 

Saying that though, my sister managed to dig out a few old documents including a welcome letter (I didn't scan it in because it's very generic), but more importantly, the original T&Cs she was sent back in 2005.

 

Front page

 

Reverse page

 

Things were okay but 2007 was a bad year and it was difficult to keep up with payments. Dated 4th April was a formal notice from Amazon / Halifax. Dated 19th April she received a final notice.

 

13th December she was contacted by Blair, Oliver & Scott Ltd. As this was before we knew much about DCA practices she arranged to pay them £25 by the end of the month of January - she has the postal order receipt dated 24th January 2008.

 

She continued to pay this amount for eight months so paid off £200. However, she checked her credit report and it had only gone down by £100.

 

September 2008 she was transferred to Scotcall (she's looking for the letter if it's needed down the line). She hadn't paid them anything before she was transferred to iQor. By 11th January 2009 they were threatening legal action and that is when we asked for proof that we owed them the debt. They responded with what they say is the proof, and then with a letter telling us we have two weeks to figure something out.

 

That's where we are now.

 

To Fuzzlebobble:

 

- they didn't charge repayment cover on any statements she's looked through

 

- if they sent a default notice it's something we haven't found yet. She's still looking, it's hard to keep track sometimes of who has sent what and when. If she finds one then I'll post it up as soon as I can

 

Thanks again for all the help. I don't know where this puts us. What I do know though is that it's late and I need to be up early tomorrow.

[smarties21]

It's come to that time again where I have to ask the lovely people of this forum for help. I hope someone can make sense of all this because honestly most of it goes over my head.

 

Early last year the DCA IQor contacted my sister saying she owed money to their client (Halifax credit card). We sent off a CCA and they replied. I was in a bit of a panic over it all after they gave her a two week deadline, but everything I can tell you about it - including scans of letters received from them - is explained in this thread (any pictures I posted that don't show up there is because in the url I accidentally wrote CAG in capitals).

 

The thread died out and life moves on so I didn't think much more about it when I didn't hear from them again. Nearing the end of September this year they were back in touch.

 

I can't scan what they sent us in as our scanner is broken right now but I'll type it up. Here's what they had to say:

 

Client Ref: [removed]

your Ref: [removed]

Payment due: [removed]

 

We are disappointed to note that despite previous communications this matter remains unresolved.

 

It is important that you connect us on [their number] so that we can discuss with you how best this debt can be repaid.

 

The best solution to debt is to deal with it, so please call now. We will ensure that if you are unable to pay the account in full right now we will agree an affordable repayment plan with you based on your financial circumstances.

 

If you continue to ignore our attempts to discuss this matter with you it is possible that we may:

 

Ask our solicitors to contact you with a view to coming to a satisfactory arrangement for the repayment of this long overdue debt.

 

Arrange for one of our local Doorstep Collectors to visit you to arrange how best you can repay it. Should our collector arrive at an inconvenient time, then please discuss with them when it would be best to call back.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Head of Collections for iQor Recovery Services Ltd

 

I meant to write here about it but we were waiting on printer ink and they hadn't been in touch for over a year and a half so I wasn't in a rush to reply. However, today (yesterday really since as I was writing this post it turned midnight) my sister received another letter, this time from Incasso. Here's what they had to say:

 

Reference: [removed]

 

RE: HALIFAX PLC

 

We have been contacted by IQor Recovery Services Ltd in relation to monies owed to HALIFAX PLC for the sum of [removed].

 

Unless iQor Recovery Services Ltd receive payment within 10 days from the date of this letter [the letter and envelope had no date on], or you contact them with your reasons for withholding payment on telephone number [iQor number] or at:

 

[iQor address]

 

It is likely that we will be instructed to pursue legal action against you.

 

Should we be instructed, we will take whatever action we feel is necessary to protect our client's interest.

 

Any legal action will include a claim for additional legal costs and interest that may accrue.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Incasso

Solicitors

 

The problem is I don't know if what iQor sent as shown on the other thread is enforceable or not, I just know that I don't want my sister to have to start dealing with the court as neither of us are in great health and previous threads mentioning them don't inspire me with much confidence. We don't want to get out of paying anything owed, but we want to pay the right people and the debt actually go down.

 

From the scans I posted on the thread I linked, does it seem likely we should be dealing with iQor and now owe them the money rather than Halifax and if so do we just offer iQor what we can afford to pay each month? Do we need to send a CCA to Incasso since it's only their word they're acting on behalf of iQor?

 

I'm really sorry if any of this is confusing, but it's been a hectic week and this is just another thing we didn't need. I'm exhausted so I'm going to head to bed now but I'll check back later this weekend to see if anyone has left some much needed advice and / or encouragement.

 

Thanks in advance, you guys are great!

 

[Edit] Changed the post slightly as it was merged with my old thread.

Edited October 9, 2010 by smarties21

[MARTIN3030]

I think a good idea to merge this latest info with the background thread.

Will do that now-I am off to bed then too !

[cerberusalert]

Send them this;

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

 

Account no

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated ........, the contents of which are noted

 

Your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On ......... I requested that ........... supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date ........... have failed to comply with my request. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to .............., nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

 

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

The above terms are inflexible and are backed up by case law:

 

McGinn v Grangewood Securities Ltd; Court of Appeal 23 April 2002 3 All ER 145; 105 Solicitor’s Journal 588

Wilson and others v Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (at Court of Appeal, known as Wilson v First County Trust) House of Lords 10 July 2003

London North Securities v Meadows (Supreme Court of Judicature Court of Appeal) 14 June 2005; Dimond v Lovell(2002) 1 AC 384

Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd ((In The Supreme Court Of Judicature Court of Appeal (Civil Division) 4 April 2007))

Bank of Scotland – v Mitchell 1 June 2009 – Leeds County Court Case 9LS70096 before HH Judge Langan Q.C.

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ............... become compliant with my request. As ................ are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

 

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file

All collection activities cease with immediate effect until ............. comply with my request from .date........... or such time as a court makes an enforcement order

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

Print name do not sign

[smarties21]

Thank you so much for the replies MARTIN3030 (I'm grateful you merged threads, it makes sense but I didn't want to bump such an old topic) and cerberusalert!

 

To cerberusalert - thanks so much for telling me what I should send. Is there anything I should send to iQor?

[cerberusalert]

Send them the letter in post #13.

[smarties21]

Send them the letter in post #13.

 

I'm sorry, I got my wires crossed. I thought what you wrote in post #13 was to be sent to Incasso - do I need to send them anything?

 

Thanks in advance if you get around to seeing this.

[cerberusalert]

I thought what you wrote in post #13 was to be sent to Incasso

Yes. Ignore Iqor because Incasso are chasing now.

[fuzzybobble]

Incasso are basically Iqor's in house solicitors. Just had the same letter from them myself a couple of days ago. Just send them the "account in dispute" letter and ignore them.

[Fred Bassett]

I've had a similar letter from Incasso. My understanding is that Iqor can't start legal proceedings because the debt belongs to Halifax.

[smarties21]

Thanks for the replies cerberusalert, fuzzybobble and Fred Bassett. It's all ready to be sent out tomorrow, but I'll be back if I run into any problems. Not sure what I'd do without CAG!

 

I have been reading your thread regarding Halifax with interest, Fred. The letter you received from Incasso is exactly like the one my sister received. I wish you the very best of luck dealing with them - although you sound like you know exactly what you're doing!

[babydoll0141917]

subbing

 

I too today had a letter not from incasso ..but from Geoffery Park Bourne solictors..Stating that I havent payed Iqor and it is Likely that they will be instructed to commence legal proceedings againts me ..smarties my agreement is very simular to your sisters..diff T and Cs on reverse 2002 is the yr..It was a telephone application..

[smarties21]

Only just saw your reply, sorry about that babydoll - don't want you to think I was ignoring you!

 

No reply yet (although it has been signed for and I expect a response soon), but I'll update if I hear anything from them. I was reading what you wrote on Fred Bassett's thread and, as we're all practically in the same boat right now then I'm interested to hear what happens with you. I hope you'll update one of our threads just to say how things are going or make your own if you have lots of details to share. Best of luck!

[babydoll0141917]

Hi smarties

 

I do hav my own thread on this ..Ill try and get the link..since they hav changed the site im a bit lost lol..I think its iqor/halifax..If you type that in keyword it will prob pop up on there !yeah in the same boat has you ..iqor tryed collecting on this 2 yrs ago ..been around afew DCAS since now back to iqor

[cerberusalert]

Hi smarties

 

I do hav my own thread on this ..Ill try and get the link..since they hav changed the site im a bit lost lol..I think its iqor/halifax..If you type that in keyword it will prob pop up on there !yeah in the same boat has you ..iqor tryed collecting on this 2 yrs ago ..been around afew DCAS since now back to iqor

Check through your threads; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/search.php?searchid=97213

[babydoll0141917]

iqor/halifax CCA thats the link but dont think its higlighted