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Basic question about PPCs

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I was discussing some of the advice given on this forum with friends and I just thought i'd post a really simple question just so I don't give out any wrong advice.

 

Ok, so there is some private land. They have land and people need a place to park so they put up notices saying that they can pay for the priviledge.

 

A simple contract. You pay £1 you can park for an hour or even better you shop with them and you can stay for 1 hour free of charge.

 

As upstanding citizens the drivers accept the "contract" to pay the parking fee for the privilege to park.

 

Is that about right?

 

I've read in other threads that "legally" things such as disabled or special bays do not apply in PPCs, infact that any bay markings do not apply.

 

So tickets for anything to do with parking in certain bays or on lines etc. do not apply?

 

 

Where is the acceptable limit for an upstanding citizen? Should they pop in to a car park with out getting a ticket or would that be unacceptable (i've read a few threads where trespassing was ruled out).

 

What about paying and displaying tickets and time limits? Does it go on common sense? You buy a ticket but are 10 minutes late. That could equate to 10p profits lost for the PPC, even if that was if all other bays were taken. It's not an acceptable loss of earnings to ask for a fine of £60.

 

 

Thanks for anyone who can help or add any more simple queries, just so we are all a little bit smarter about the [problem] but not too smug to get into trouble unneccessarily :D

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If a landowner provides land on which to park, than any contravention of posted terms and conditions is, I would say, unacceptable. If one is invited onto land (for the purpose of parking one's car) one should always strive to abide by any 'rules' which are in place. As Lord Justice Scrutton once said:

 

“…when you invite a person into your house to use the staircase, you do not invite him to slide down the banisters.”

 

I pay £3 a day to park in Chelmsford. In the town centre, there is a car park which is free for 3 hours. It is managed by Parking Eye. I could park there all day for free - I know that I would get junk mail, but the chances of having to part with any money is next to zero!

 

However, to do so would be wrong.

 

The main problem that the PPCs face, however, is justifying the amount of money they try and claim. In your scenario - car parking is £1 an hour. If I stayed for 2 hours and had only paid for one, then the landowner (or whoever manages the land) should be able to reclaim the outstanding pound from me. To add on another £59 pounds for the privilege is cheeky to say the least.


Warning: Freemen of the Land Operate here. Think twice before accepting 'legal advice'.

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Ok, so there is some private land. They have land and people need a place to park so they put up notices saying that they can pay for the priviledge.

 

A simple contract. You pay £1 you can park for an hour or even better you shop with them and you can stay for 1 hour free of charge.

 

As upstanding citizens the drivers accept the "contract" to pay the parking fee for the privilege to park.

 

Is that about right?

 

That's about right, yes. You and the car park owners have a civil contract, just like if you hire someone to clean your gutters.

 

I've read in other threads that "legally" things such as disabled or special bays do not apply in PPCs, infact that any bay markings do not apply.

 

All rules will be stated or implied in the contract. However there are separate rules governing the Blue Badge scheme, which are Europe-wide. Those particular rules do not apply off-road, so you aren't bound by them. But if the land owner says he has his own rules regarding use of Blue Badges, then they (and only they) are part of the agreement when you park.

 

So tickets for anything to do with parking in certain bays or on lines etc. do not apply?

 

Possibly. Hypothetically there might be more rules, or there might not.

 

Where is the acceptable limit for an upstanding citizen? Should they pop in to a car park with out getting a ticket or would that be unacceptable (i've read a few threads where trespassing was ruled out).

 

Look - if a landowner did not try and stop people, then car parks would be jammed with cars seeking free parking spaces. You might not like it, but car park owners do have some moral right to prevent this - so as an upstanding citizen, observe the land owner's wishes.

 

What about paying and displaying tickets and time limits? Does it go on common sense? You buy a ticket but are 10 minutes late. That could equate to 10p profits lost for the PPC, even if that was if all other bays were taken. It's not an acceptable loss of earnings to ask for a fine of £60.

 

That's about right.

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It also depends on who makes the offer to park. the landowner or the PPC ? Does the PPC have the legal right to make the offer ? If the landowner makes the offer does the PPC have any right to profit from it ?

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The issue is when you get contracts like the following:

 

"Free parking for customers only for a maximum of 3 hours. If you park beyond 3 hours you agree to pay a parking charge of £80. Non-customers will receive a parking charge of £80."

 

Think about the contractual offer - free parking for 3 hours. If you breach this, you breach the contract. For which the PPC/landowner may be entitled to recompense. Basically zero.

Where is the offer to park beyond 3 hours? The sum (in this instance) points to a contractual penalty and the contract isn't offering parking beyond 3 hours. It is attempting to offer something it is forbidding.

Again, being a 'non-customer' would be breaching the contract that the service is for customers. Again, recompense is the remedy. If you park for an hour it may be argued that you have deprived a space for a paying customer. The loss may be £5, may be £10. Certainly no more in reality.

 

And there are so many hoops for the PPC to jump through as mentioned above.

 

PPC's like to live in cloud cuckoo land and manipulate contract law into a simple 'your actions = you pay us for whatever we feel like putting on the sign'.

 

Which begs the question, why not make the signs demand £500 or £5000, take every single person to court and retire to the Seychelles?

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It also depends on who makes the offer to park. the landowner or the PPC ? Does the PPC have the legal right to make the offer ? If the landowner makes the offer does the PPC have any right to profit from it ?

 

Thats as stupid as saying a shop keeper cannot sell goods for profit only the landlord can, if the landlord has contracted a PPC to manage the parking or rented out the land to a PPC its irelevant who profits.

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Look up privity of contract.

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The issue is when you get contracts like the following:

 

"Free parking for customers only for a maximum of 3 hours. If you park beyond 3 hours you agree to pay a parking charge of £80. Non-customers will receive a parking charge of £80."

 

Think about the contractual offer - free parking for 3 hours. If you breach this, you breach the contract. For which the PPC/landowner may be entitled to recompense. Basically zero.

Where is the offer to park beyond 3 hours? The sum (in this instance) points to a contractual penalty and the contract isn't offering parking beyond 3 hours. It is attempting to offer something it is forbidding.

Again, being a 'non-customer' would be breaching the contract that the service is for customers. Again, recompense is the remedy. If you park for an hour it may be argued that you have deprived a space for a paying customer. The loss may be £5, may be £10. Certainly no more in reality.

 

And there are so many hoops for the PPC to jump through as mentioned above.

 

PPC's like to live in cloud cuckoo land and manipulate contract law into a simple 'your actions = you pay us for whatever we feel like putting on the sign'.

 

Which begs the question, why not make the signs demand £500 or £5000, take every single person to court and retire to the Seychelles?

 

I think you are confusing loss and contract. If the parking is free for staff but others agree to pay £50, the cost of parking for non staff is £50 so they can recover that 'fee'. My local gym is free to members but for non members its £15 a visit so following your logic if I walked in as a non member when its was almost empty and used the pool as there is no loss I don't need to pay the £15 due?

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You're quite right. My wording was an example of one type of PPC sign.

 

Your example shows demonstrable loss, although you'd still get demands for eight odd quid.

 

The issue would be if the signs said "Free for members. Non-members will incur a parking charge of £80". They would then try to get the money through an alleged contractual agreement, not through loss. Which is typical in 99% of cases.

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The distinction that is being drawn between loss and contract is totally nebulous. The two are totally entwined, as any contractual lawyer will tell you. Yes, the PPC can specify that the driver enters into a contract, by his conduct in parking, to pay £75 if he says more than 3 hours. However, if the driver stays 3 hours and 5 minutes then quite obviously he breaches this purported contract. What is the non breaching party entitled to for the breach? Damages for his losses. What are his losses? A reasonable amount to compensate him for the driver overstaying for 5 minutes. This is where the unlawful contractual penalty comes in. The driver cannot be charged a grossly extortionate amount that is out of proportion to the breach. So in this example the non-breaching party could not recover £75 for 5 minutes overstay. It is not possible to get around the law of unlawful penalties, the "fee" charged is either grossly exorbitant and a penalty or it is not. Any attempt to try to set the breach fee as a contractual agreed price or fee will fall down in this way.

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Any attempt to try to set the breach fee as a contractual agreed price or fee will fall down in this way.

 

And it does. As OPC will testify.

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Thats as stupid as saying a shop keeper cannot sell goods for profit only the landlord can, if the landlord has contracted a PPC to manage the parking or rented out the land to a PPC its irelevant who profits.

I didn't say that - you did ! Look up privity. Also try to distinguish between rights and chattels, it will help you no end if you can tell the difference.

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