I will freely admit that I'm an idiot; and could use some practical advice.

[Old-CodJA]

All of the reference to Penalty Fares is irrelevant if the Inspector decides that the fare was 'at risk'

 

At no time is an authorised person wholly obliged to accept or issue a penalty Fare notice or to accept payment of a fare

 

If the staff member concerned was convinced that pre-purchase facilities were available to the traveller, and the traveller had failed to pay and obtain a ticket unreasonably, then that traveller could be reported for the strict liability matter of breach of Byelaw.

 

Running off only compounded the case and made it possible to prosecute the more serious offence of intent to avoid a fare

[RPI]

The issue regarding part payment is quite important though as if a nil paid PF isissued and it isn't paid the TOC can cancel it and prosecute instead,

however, if a part payment is accepted then it is difficult to cancel the notice and prosecute as the "fare" has already been paid, and can only really be persued via the county court (which could ultimately result in a visit from a nice bailiff), we were always told to eith do full paid or nil paid.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, that is correct.

 

If the traveller had paid the single fare due for the journey made on a Penalty Fare Notice, he or she could not be prosecuted in a Magistrates Court for the offence of failing to pay the fare due. The balance of the Penalty Fare is a civil remedy.

 

For rail staff it should always be the norm to collect all the Penalty or none.

 

For the traveller, if a penalty fare is being issued, it is always in your best interest to insist on paying the full single fare

 

It is perfectly possible to prosecute a charge of avoiding, or attempting to avoid paying a fare contrary to S5.3.a RRA (1889) even if the fare is paid in some circumstances.

 

If the evidence is collected and recorded and the traveller then goes of and pays the fare elsewhere before leaving the station, or insists that the inspector take it, he or she may not escape prosecution because the Act is very clear in saying 'having not previously paid...'

 

However, you are right, the traveller might insist on paying when being questioned, but the inspector can refuse to accept a fare if he or she genuinely believes that a prosecutable offence has been committed and decides to make a report to that effect. A penalty fare notice is not a report in these circumstances.

 

It would have to be a travel irregularity report or witness statement alleging a prosecutable offence.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[RPI]

Agreed, but there is nothing in the actual PF rules that says a passenger can insist on the rail fare being paid, only that the collecter may insist on it!

[Old-CodJA]

Agreed, but there is nothing in the actual PF rules that says a passenger can insist on the rail fare being paid, only that the collecter may insist on it!

 

I don't disagree and have made that clear in previous discussions on the same subject.

 

However, I think this is getting somewhat side-tracked because that is not the point at issue in this OPs thread.

 

PF plus a fare is only relevant if the journey without ticket for which the PF is levied forms only a part of the total journey being made.

 

In that scenario, if detected before point B it is a PF from A to B and a fare from B to C

 

That scenario has never been described as relevant in the OPs posting

 

.

[silly11]

Ok, so the letter arrived today from the prosecutions department, with the NIP. A couple of questions if you don't mind?

 

The first is that I'm not entirely sure what they intend to prosecute me under; I think it's s.18, not s.5 judging from the first paragraph:

 

"On [day and date] at [time] your details were taken by a Revenue Protection Officer for the offence of not having a valid ticket at [named] station."

 

The way I'm reading this, it would be s.18 - or is it still possible for a s.5 to be tacked on to this?

 

Secondly, what do I do now?

 

There is a phone number, and email contact, though the letter states at the end that You must reply to this letter using the attached document within 7 days of the above date Is it likely to irritate them if I call or email (the reason that I'm thinking email particularly is that I can scan in the ticket that I bought that day when I got back home easily - not that it makes any difference to the offence, I'm guilty as charged, but I'm hoping that it would go some way to showing that I didn't try and avoid paying for the journey.

 

I would also prefer to email or call, just in case the letter back to them went walkies in the post, which would be sod's law.

 

I had a thought the other day; I'm also a (now part time) instructor under the Driving Standards Agency. A criminal record would lose me that job as well.

 

Totally my fault though, and I'll have to deal with the consequences. Anyway, write back using their form, email or phone. Any ideas?

 

Thanks.

Edited October 21, 2010 by silly11
too

[Old-CodJA]

It looks to me as if you are likely to be charged with the strict liability offence of either:

 

a) Entering a train for the purpose of travelling without having purchased a ticket showing that you had previously paid your fare - that's contrary to National Railways Byelaw 18.1 (2005)

 

or

 

b) Failing to show a valid ticket on demand - that's contrary to National Railways Byelaw 18.2 (2005)

 

It does not appear that a S.5 offence is considered appropriate from the wording that you have reproduced in your post.

 

The best course of action is to write, making any appeal and giving your explanation of what happened from your perspective. Include any scanned copies of tickets or other relevant information, then send by recorded delivery post.

.

[silly11]

Thanks for the lightning response - will do.

[SRPO]

If they have given the you option of emailing them I would do that, then you wont have to wait for letters to go back & forth.

[silly11]

The Conclusion

 

I am the luckiest boy on this planet.

 

I sent my letter via Recorded Delivery in the end, addressed directly to the person who sent me the NIP. They responded today, saying that on this occasion that they were willing to accept a payment of £35 in full and final settlement, which I've just paid over the phone.

 

So, no conviction and a much lower settlement than I anticipated - a second relief as I'm pretty much skint currently- law text books are expensive!

 

A good result, and I've learned my lesson; I don't think I'll walk within five feet of a station again without a ticket

 

And the good result couldn't have been achieved without the help of you guys one here - so thank you all. I'll be making a donation to the site when I next get paid.

 

Cheers.

[Old-CodJA]

Well done

[Stigy]

Glad you got a good result!

[SRPO]

I imagine the officers didnt mention you trying to make off on their statements.

[silly11]

I don't know what was said on their statements, but on my statement it was mentioned twice. The first time I responded "So you say", the 2nd time I responded "No comment."

 

I also referred to it in my letter and said how stupid I'd been for doing so.

 

Counting the blessings either way...

[Stigy]

I imagine the officers didnt mention you trying to make off on their statements.

They probably "forgot" about that one, just in case it came back to haunt them!

[Grotesque]

Bloody good and (if you don't mind me saying so!) phenomenally lenient result! -not the one I was expecting

 

Well done!

[silly11]

Bloody good and (if you don't mind me saying so!) phenomenally lenient result! -not the one I was expecting

 

Well done!

 

 

Don't mind you saying at all - I know I was very lucky. Can only think that it was a combination of following the advice of those that know from here to the letter, and the fact that it was a first offence. Suspect the fact that I'd bought a ticket a couple of hours later for the journey I took and enclosed it with the (long letter) I sent also helped matters.

 

I was a bit shocked when I saw the settlement amount and mightily relieved also - I'm skint currrently, irrespective of that debacle!

[rowmeaboat]

silly11 could you post the letter that you sent? I hope I get through this as smoothly as you did!

[dx100uk]

silly11 could you post the letter that you sent? I hope I get through this as smoothly as you did!

 

this thread is 4yrs old

 

start a new thread

 

else you'll not be seen here

 

dx