Cabot problem re old CITI Card account

[tifo]

sent request on 15 May to Citicards for an ex-Associates card i used to have.

 

received standard reply dated 24 May that they will look into it and get back to me.

 

passed to FOS on 13 June who said they will allow Citicards 8 weeks. Corrected this as i'd sent my request on 15 May and 8 weeks expired 7 July.

 

received letter from FOS on 17 Aug that it's being allocated.

 

received letter from FOS on 5 Sept that the adjudicator has written to Citicards.

 

received letter dated 13 Sept from Citicards solicitor which basically says :

 

they disagree with the OFT's interpretation of 6 April 2006,

that the OFT stated the fees were not unlawful, just unfair,

that they were, and are, entitled to levy a default fee, just not one in excess of £12 (they charged me £25 each time).

they say i am suggesting their client owes me money, but the account was charged off,

that i owed more to their client than i am asking, so to refund me would allow me to profit from my default,

if i have paid a third party (debt agency) then i have no claim with their client (i am not claiming that i want charges paid to a third party),

that in over 2 dozen cases Citicards has successfully argued the fairness of £12 (forgets that they charged me £25),

that the court has endorsed their view that you cannot claim charges from a debt that has been charged off,

that they will ask for the case to be heard in Salford (no problem, i drive and can add costs),

 

as a background, the account was sold to Cabot who say they are not the creditor.

 

any advice please as i have not dealt with Citicards before.

[tifo]

another reply received. I sent a letter after i got the above.

 

This time the solicitor says :

 

1. His client did not agree to pay me.

 

True, but he did state in his letter they are not allowed to charge more than £12. If they do then they have to pay the difference?

 

2. Citi will not refund me as the account was charged off and i did not pay them.

 

Yes, but it means i do not owe them anything now?

 

3. When charged off i owed them around £1000. Citi can make any ex-gratia payment to whoever it chooses, not merely my debt. My contract is now with the debt agency, not Citi, so i should claim from agency.

 

Yes, but at the time of the charges it was with Citi.

 

4. It does not have to disclose any costs to me.

 

Interestingly, he also sent me a copy of a case they were involved in, Timothy Potter vs Citi Cards (case 6QZ39123). This he says proves that the judge accepted their £12.88 breakdown and even the £25 charge.

 

The above case bears no relevance to my claim as the above had been paid the difference between the £25 and £12, did not attend the hearing and the POC's was flawed. Or does it?

[tifo]

anyone?

 

Can Gizmo111 help here?

[Enron]

Probably best to PM Gizmo111 for advice

 

People have jobs etc and aren't permanently here so best to contact the person direct.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/private.php?do=newpm&u=33723

[gizmo111]

another reply received. I sent a letter after i got the above.

 

This time the solicitor says :

 

1. His client did not agree to pay me.

 

True, but he did state in his letter they are not allowed to charge more than £12. If they do then they have to pay the difference?

 

The are not allowed to charge more than their costs - the 12 is just the amount the OFT said was he limit before they would take legal action

 

2. Citi will not refund me as the account was charged off and i did not pay them.

 

Yes, but it means i do not owe them anything now?

 

Not your problem - they cahrged you and you paid DCA - but you need to address this in your POC

 

3. When charged off i owed them around £1000. Citi can make any ex-gratia payment to whoever it chooses, not merely my debt. My contract is now with the debt agency, not Citi, so i should claim from agency.

 

Yes, but at the time of the charges it was with Citi.

 

4. It does not have to disclose any costs to me.

 

Correct - it is up to the claimant to prov case - but disclosure covers this problem

 

Interestingly, he also sent me a copy of a case they were involved in, Timothy Potter vs Citi Cards (case 6QZ39123). This he says proves that the judge accepted their £12.88 breakdown and even the £25 charge.

 

The above case bears no relevance to my claim as the above had been paid the difference between the £25 and £12, did not attend the hearing and the POC's was flawed. Or does it?

 

Citi re using this in the same way they used to use Kissick in northern ireland, we counteract that with all the claims we have won.

 

You now need to file at court.

Have you apid the DCA the full amount owing.

Have citi paid the DCA at all?

[tifo]

You now need to file at court.

Have you apid the DCA the full amount owing.

Have citi paid the DCA at all?

 

Thanks Gizmo,

 

I have not paid the DCA the full amount, as they have provided zero documents towards my s.78 CCA request. In fact, being Cabot, they don't even think they are the creditor, only liable to collect the debt but not liable for anything else. Therefore the agreement is currently unenforceable even at court.

 

Citi should go the same way as other OC's who have paid me directly rather than the DCA.

[gizmo111]

You can't not acknowledge the debt and claim back the charges it is either one or the other.

Citi will pay anything they are going to the DCA first.

[tifo]

You can't not acknowledge the debt and claim back the charges it is either one or the other. Citi will pay anything they are going to the DCA first.

 

I don't understand.

 

Why should they pay the DCA when i am asking for the refund and the contract at the time of the charges was between us? This is how all other banks have paid out so why should Citi be different?

 

I've not acknowledged any debts with DCA's that have not complied with s.78 request yet the other banks have been happy to pay me the refund as i have stated that the DCA is a third party to this.

 

As i don't acknowledge any debt to the DCA due to ZERO documents after s.78 request, by paying the DCA would they not prejudice any future action that might be taken, such as court action by me to remove my defaults?

 

If the DCA get paid by Citi then they have won ... no CCA compliance AND payment of monies much more than the debt or enough to wipe it out plus they think they're not even the creditor.

 

There's no use carrying on if they pay the DCA ... i'm not wasting all this time to pay Cabot when they haven't sent me a single valid document and don't even think they're the creditor.

 

Should i give up on this one?

[gizmo111]

They will pay the balance and send you the difference if it is more than the debt. You will end up in court with Citi and they will contact the DCA for your balance details, and if you are refusing to pay the debt, then they will argue that you haven't paid the charges and therefore are not entitled to them back.

It is up to you how to proceed, but the debt still exists unenforceable or not.

[tifo]

this is not good news.

 

so Citi work differently from everyone else do they? Other card providers are happy to pay me despite being sold to a DCA.

 

aren't they prejudicing my dispute with the DCA by paying them when the debt is unenforceable on their side? What happens to the fact that the DCA have sent no documents in response to a s.78 request therefore they are not entitled to any payment until they do so?

 

another thing i thought. Are Citi entitled to only £12 per charge or only one charge of £12 per month? I ask because, for example, they charge me for £25 for missed payment, £25 for overlimit fee and £25 for admin fee in a month, that's a total of £75. Then they keep £12 from each a total of £36. Can it not be argued that their costs are not £36 a month to keep my account as it is and they should only keep £12 in any month?

[tifo]

forgot to ask ..

 

Cabot say Citi are still the creditor therefore as i don't owe Citi any money the refund should come to me?

 

i'm on Cabot's case to remove the defaults etc as they're not the creditor and only a creditor can default me.

 

so the trick is to get Cabot to ZERO the balance as an unenforceable debt before taking Citi to court? That way they would have to pay me.

 

the fact is i don't want to pay the DCA the whole amount and would want the refund sent to me so i can agree a settlement amount of around 20%. Therefore Citi sending them the refund does not help me at all.

[gizmo111]

so Citi work differently from everyone else do they? Other card providers are happy to pay me despite being sold to a DCA.

 

If you read the forum you will see that Citi are one of the hardest to claim from

 

aren't they prejudicing my dispute with the DCA by paying them when the debt is unenforceable on their side? What happens to the fact that the DCA have sent no documents in response to a s.78 request therefore they are not entitled to any payment until they do so

 

No, the debt is unenforceable, it doesn't mean it no longer exists, Citi wil lsimply say that you haven't paid the charges and therfore are not entitled to a refund.

 

 

another thing i thought. Are Citi entitled to only £12 per charge or only one charge of £12 per month? I ask because, for example, they charge me for £25 for missed payment, £25 for overlimit fee and £25 for admin fee in a month, that's a total of £75. Then they keep £12 from each a total of £36. Can it not be argued that their costs are not £36 a month to keep my account as it is and they should only keep £12 in any month?

 

The £12 is total rubbish - they are only allowed to cahrge what it costs them which isn't £25, £12, £12.88, £13.47 or any other figure they magic up ver and above about £2

 

forgot to ask ..

 

Cabot say Citi are still the creditor therefore as i don't owe Citi any money the refund should come to me?

 

i'm on Cabot's case to remove the defaults etc as they're not the creditor and only a creditor can default me.

 

so the trick is to get Cabot to ZERO the balance as an unenforceable debt before taking Citi to court? That way they would have to pay me.

 

the fact is i don't want to pay the DCA the whole amount and would want the refund sent to me so i can agree a settlement amount of around 20%. Therefore Citi sending them the refund does not help me at all.

 

See above , but again Citi will simply say that you haven't paid the charges and therfore are not entitled to a refund. You can't refuse to pay a debt and claim back charges from the same debt.

[tifo]

thanks Gizmo111,

 

i think we're going round in circles here. I'll just take it further and see what happens.

 

but in answer to a few points above, Citi cannot say i have not paid the charges and am not entitled to a refund as i HAVE or WILL pay the charges as part of the debt with the DCA which is no concern of theirs anymore as they sold the account.

 

i'm not refusing to pay a debt and then claim charges from it, i don't owe Citi any money now. How i handle my debts with third parties is no concern of theirs.

 

as Cabot say they're not the creditor then i don't owe them anything so Citi have no right to send my money to a third party i don't owe any money to.

 

by the time Citi are in court to pay up, there will be no more debt with DCA so the refund must come to me. I'm taking Cabot to court to either wipe the defaults etc. or provide a executed valid agreement.

[will_i_am]

How have you been getting on? I have an ex-associates with a DCA that I was just about to pay-off, but really want to get the default removed.

Are there any strategies for this?

[tifo]

How have you been getting on? I have an ex-associates with a DCA that I was just about to pay-off, but really want to get the default removed.

Are there any strategies for this?

 

Nothing yet.

 

No response from Citi to my letters and no response from Citi to the FOS request.

[Enron]

If the accumulated penalty charges have contributed towards your default, then you might have an arguement against getting it removed.... i'd have a word with Gizmo.

[mkandy]

I'm looking at getting a default removed too - though finding a good argument is the biggest blocker at the minute. I'm going to have to rely on the charges being more than the default amount

[tifo]

received response from FOS, asking many questions on the debt. Is it any of their business?

 

They say Citi has declined to make an offer as they don't do this on written off accounts. They've asked me to confirm if i owe Citi any money, if i owe a debt agency any money, what i am paying said debt agency, what am i claiming back (despite sending them a schedule of charges 2 times) etc etc.

 

Anyone have any advice for me because whether i am paying the debt agency or not, Citi still charged me. My total claim is for around £3,000 with interest and account sold was around £1,200 with charges.

 

The DCA is Cabot and they've already said they're not the creditor (as they normally do) and that they won't collect until they comply with my s.78 request (which Citi should help them with), therefore the account is currently uneforceable.

[elsinore]

Hi tifo.

 

As you have involved FOS, I don’t see how you can avoid giving them the information they have asked for. If you refuse, or simply fail to respond to their request, I imagine they will shelve the case.

 

Els

[tifo]

The bank made no offer when i claimed charges last year. I then passed this to the FOS.

 

It's taken the FOS over 16 months to make a decision this month, which is the same as what the bank has offered, i.e. charges with some interest to be paid to a debt agency.

 

I have rejected this FOS decision and bank's offer as i state i require payment to be sent to me only. I have stated various reasons to the FOS, such as that they have not even contacted the DCA, it was never a part of the complaint with the bank and at the FOS etc.

 

Today, i've received a letter from Citi that, following my acceptance of their at the FOS, they have sent a cheque for the offer amount to the DCA. Seems like they're trying to force me to accept their offer. I've informed them that they are wrong because i rejected their offer and FOS's decision and expect the money to remain with them until we reach an agreement.

 

I was about to send an LBA and issue a claim some weeks later. What shall i do now?

[oggy1]

hi tifo ,

reading your thraed with interest, i claimed my charges from citi and they tried to pay me , no dca involved though, i sent the cheque back and they credited my account with the money.

they did not respond to any of my lba,s , sent all 4 and filed at court. again no response until after the deadline, said they were going to defend , did not bother and then sent cheque to cover all expenses and interest with the charges.

i had an easy time against them but i think you should answer the fos and still go for the charges.

[MARTIN3030]

You are not at liberty to accept the offers since you do not agree with them and have signed nothing as full and final.

You can put Citi on notice that you intent to institute a County Court claim-you will need to inform the FOS of this and withdraw your complaint as unsatisfied.

Pre action protocols require at least 28 days before issuing proceedings,however if it can be seen that a final response has been given after you have tried to negotiate then I cant see any problem with filing inside the 28 days.

I would send City a 14 day LBA giving them a final chance to settle.They will probably acknowledge it,and follow it up with a final response.Whichever is the soonest-their refusal or the 28 days should give yopu the green light to claim.Make sure you send the list of charges again.Keep us posted.

[tifo]

well, i seem to have a hard time with them.

 

i wouldn't mind them crediting my account if it was with them, but i have certainly not asked them to manage my debts with other creditors, which is what a DCA is. The facts remains that i do not owe them any money because it was fully settled when they sold it.

[Enron]

Citi ignore the FOS, so don't go that route, stick to your time table, 14 days after the letter before action file your court claim.

 

Lots of us here to help you, they'll likely take it all the way to court, but its relatively informal and we have lots of ammunition for you.

[tifo]

you will need to inform the FOS of this and withdraw your complaint as unsatisfied.

 

This has already been done. Had a letter from FOS on 13th saying, since i've rejected their decision, it is no longer binding on me and the bank.

 

Then i get a letter today, dated 15th, from Citi stating since i've accepted the FOS decision, they have sent a cheque for the amount offered to the DCA.

 

I've rang and told them they are wrong, couldn't speak to the right person but a message got sent to them.

 

I'll follow this up with an LBA letter and include the FOS's last letter.