Halifax havn't fully complied with cca request - what do I do now?

[waroo]

Hi,

I'm hoping someone can give me a little guidance on my next step against Halifax. I've spent loads of time reading up on here but I'm left a little confused.

 

I sent a cca request to Halifax recorded delivery on 8th September. I recevied a letter back dated 14th September which I'm pretty sure does not fully comply with my request. Details of letter are as follows (sorry my scanner is not working):

 

I write in response to your request for a copy of your consumer credit agreement under S78 of the CCA 1974.

 

I have enclosed with this letter a copy of your reconstituted version of the executed agreement comprising both the original & current terms & conditions together with a signed statement of the account

 

I have requested a copy of the original signed application form from the relevant department to comply with your section 60/61 request. You will receive this shortly under separate cover.

 

The copy of the agreement enclosed with this letter complies with the requiremens of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices & Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (the "Regulations"). Regulation 3(2)b provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature. In summary we are not required to produce a copy with your signature on it.

 

By providing you with the documents attached to this letter, we have satisfied our obligation to provide a copy of the executed agreement un der Section 78. As such, the agreement you have with us is fully enforceable & we shall continue to treat it as such. We will not be entering into any further correspondance with you regarding the requirements relating to the provision of copy agreement.

 

If you are using the services of a claims management company we would like to remind you of the warnings issued by the Ministry of Justice & Citizens Advice Bureau.

 

I refer you to a quote from the Ministry of Justice that reads "businesses that mislead the public by claimng they can arrange for unpaid loans, credit card debts or other comsumer debts to be written off have been told to stop of face action".

 

Finally, may we remind you that failure to make payments under this agreement wil result in collection activities & any default may also be reported to Credit Reference Agencies.

 

Right, sorry it was long winded but if I can explain what they included with the above letter. First, a piece of paper with 6 points typed up (plain word document) stating, balance on account, credit limit, current onterest rate, arrears amount, next payment due by.., amount payable being x% or £5. Next, two bundles of paper (4 sheets = 7 sides) stapled in top corner. One is a copy credit agreement (states: for me to keep at the top). The first paragraph includes parties to the agreement with their details & my name & address. Then a long list of numbered points detailing APR, charges, lost/stolen cards etc.

The second copy is almost the same with both party details in the top paragraph only now they are BOS not Halifax & then APR etc in numbered points.

 

I can't remember when exactly I took out the card but I half think it was before I got married in which case should the T&Cs contain my maiden name not my married name. I know I had a Halifax credit card well before I met my husband but I do remember changing it at some point to a different account.

Does what they have sent comply with my request & is what they say in their letter correct.

 

If they are in default of my request what is my next step. I'm confused about the waiting 30 more days after the 12+2 which I've read about on a lot of threads.

 

To add to my worry & confusion, I today received a letter saying they are calling at my home on Sunday! Should I send a "don't call with out appointment" type letter which I have seen posted on this forum?

I am very grateful of any help & advice.

[dx100uk]

how about a digital camera or mobile phone.

 

dx

[themagician]

never seen such waffel in all my life.

if they had an original agreement with your sig on it they would have sent it,send them the acc in dispute letter from the debt collection library,also in there is the no door step visit letter,send that aswell.

poss is they will not call just another idle threat to get you to pay.

if it snows on sunday and the pope is with him " as if" when he calls !!!

tell him to bog off ,and his mate and take your sledge with you,if they were to refuse then call the police "not 999" and tell them you have some dodgy blokes at your door demanding money with menaces,other wise if you got a big dog don't feed him until they come! good luck.

[Bazooka Boo]

As for their hilarious threat of a doorstep visit on a Sunday! Do me a favour, they have not got the money to afford to employ morons to knock on peoples doors on a weekend, least of a sunday!

That threat MUST be copied and sent to the OFT&TS via http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/contact

AND http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumer/complaints.htm Who are sick to the back teeth of receiving complaints about the banks at the minute.

Send the CEO an email too. [email protected]

[Abby25]

As far as I am aware, the reconstruced version must include your name and address relevant at the inception of the agreement i.e what they were at the time you took the card/loan out.

 

In producing a reconstructed version, they must also advise if they hold the original (which I think you said was being sourced from another dept).

 

Secondly, whilst a recon. satisfies the basics of Carey under a s78 request, as far as I am aware they need the original for any court proceedings.

 

Abs x

[waroo]

Thanks for the replys. So, should I still send an account in dispute letter as I was confused about the reconstituted version fulfilling the request (post number 5). My original request was sent recorded on 8th Septebmer so if I'm right in my working out the 12+2 days were up on 22nd Sept so a further 30 days would fall on 22nd October.

I don't really get the 12+2 then + another 30 days. I don't want to rock the boat so to speak if they are going to committ an offence. Can someone advise me please, thanks

[babybear39]

The 'offence' was repealed by the CPUTR in May 2008.

 

After the 12 + 2 working days have expired send them the account in dispute letter adding a paragraph advising that if they intend legal action then they must have the ORIGINAL Ask them if they do?

[dpick]

Hi below is a copy of a letter I have used and have seen on quite a few postings

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Thank you for your letter dated nn/nn/nnnn.

You have chosen to respond to my CCA request by providing a reconstituted agreement. While this may satisfy a CCA request, it is not enforceable in a court of law.

 

I now request you to confirm that you actually hold a copy of the original signed agreement. If you do not hold an agreement, then I require you to confirm this, or if you do hold the original signed Agreement then I would ask for you to advise me in what form.

 

I can think of no valid reason why you should provide a reconstituted version when you could have simply photocopied the original-if it exists.

 

I would remind you that the OFT state that creditors should not imply or state that an enforceable agreement exists if that is not the case.

 

I look forward to receiving your response within 14 days if I do not I will then consider the alleged debt to be unenforceable at that time.

 

Dpick

[waroo]

Thanks so much for that, I will get a letter sorted & posted to them asap & post up the outcome.

Thanks once again.

[Nishikigoi]

I think they send this to avoid the account going into dispute (or a good argument against it), then at their leisure they can try to find the original. As they suggest it exists and will arrive, I'd push for that offering say 14 days for it's arrival. Then send the dispute letter as you can demonstrate to a court that you have remained 'reasonable' while they have failed to provide documents they have promised.

 

Then again, I'm no expert!

 

I do know that displaying 'reasonableness' goes a long way in court.

[Abby25]

Hi there,

 

I think I have read somewhere that if they have satisfied s77/788 by providing a reconstructed version, whereby they are asserting that all the terms in there, were also in the original agreement you signed. The judge will want to see that you have a valid reason why you still want to see the original - as if you just wanted the original agreement to check what terms you had agreed to, well in theory they are all there in the reconstructed version ..... and there is no dispute !

 

So ... WHY would you still demand to see the original, without which you will put the agreement into dispute ....

 

Well .... it could be ... that you can't recall a certain term being in the original executed agreement, or that you can't recall agreeing to a certain term ... or simply that you definately would not have agreed to a certain term ,which is show in the reconstructed agreement, if it had been in the originally executed agreement ..... get my drift ???

 

Anything really which means that to prove you did agree to the challenged term, they MUST PRODUCE THE ORIGINAL as proof of this IN ANY COURT PROCEEDINGS ... make sense ;-) ?

 

If you simply say you want to see the original and won't play ball until they present either it or a true copy of it, despite them sending a reconstructed version, of the terms that they assert would have been inc in the executed agreement ...

 

and it gets to court ...

 

the DJ may be none too impressed when the Creditor states your basis and reason for putting the account in dispute (and with holding payment), is that you simply demanded to see the original (or true copy of such) without which you simply stopped paying ....

 

there must be a reason why you still wanted to see a true copy of the original (when they can prove they have satisfied S77/78 liabilities) ..... a challenge on one or several of the terms in the recon version would be a good basis of dispute whereby it would only be satisfied by reviewing the original executed agreement to establish whether you claims and dispute are justified ... and thereby make the DJ more likely to accept your defence ... (if after calling their bluff they still take it court that is ... ;-) )

 

This is only my opinion ... but maybe something to consider when you send the "in dispute" letter....

 

Abs x

[Bazooka Boo]

CCA request states that if they are to send a reconstitued version of the agreement, then they are to say why they have done so, if they don't then the account is deemed in dispute, and payment withheld. If it got to court, the DJ would also want to know exactly why the OC failed to supply a 'true' copy of the agreement if they did indeed have it all along.

It stands to reason, if someone is demanding money from you, then you will show them any requested documents to prove beyond doubt that they do indeed owe this money, ie. issuing a 'true' copy of the original agreement when it is lawfully requested, when they fail to do so, or send a reconstitued version of it without an explanation as to why, then no wonder people are inclined to dispute the account as it is their legal right to do so.

The reason why you want to see a true copy of the 'original' agreement, is so you know whether or not they are legally entitled to be demanding money from you, besides it is a lawful request.

[Abby25]

Be very aware and read up on the Carey judgement ... which deals with the validity of a recon agreement ...

 

You want to make sure all angles and possabilities are covered after all ....

 

In essence they have complied with your s77/78 request ... as I said in an earlier post the recon agreement must contain your name and address at the time of the app, and they must also dicslose if they hold the original.

 

But for the purposes of s77/78 requests ... as long as ALL the info is in the recon agreement .. they have complied ... but court would be another matter .... and I think its wise to have an arguement as to why you still insist on the original if they have satisfied their S77/78 request ... which would stop them even thinking about court..

 

Abs x

Edited October 5, 2010 by Abby25

[rhos123]

Be very aware and read up on the Carey judgement ... which deals with the validity of a recon agreement ...

 

You want to make sure all angles and possabilities are covered after all ....

 

In essence they have complied with your s77/78 request ... as I said in an earlier post the recon agreement must contain your name and address at the time of the app, and they must also dicslose if they hold the original.

 

But for the purposes of s77/78 requests ... as long as ALL the info is in the recon agreement .. they have complied ... but court would be another matter .... and I think its wise to have an arguement as to why you still insist on the original if they have satisfied their S77/78 request ... which would stop them even thinking about court..

 

Abs x

now on my original agreement it states that £1 per month must be paid (example) now on thier recon agreement it states £10 must be paid. now please produce THE ORIGINAL AGREEMENT.

[Abby25]

Spot on ... !!

 

Thats the kind of error to search the recon for, that will sink any "Carey" or "we have met out s77/8 obligations" argument dead in the water ....

 

Abs x

[waroo]

Hi again, sorry to be a pain, I've been reading through all the posts & I could do with a little more help. I have found someone elses thread with a photobucket attachment of the same as what I received from Halifax. In the first post (#1) on the link below. It's the third photobucket attachment.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?175319-CCA-from-Halifax-valid

 

Basically, what the member has posted and referred to as the copy terms & conditions they received (only page one showing as it's an 8 page document) is all I received from Halifax. I was sent two copies of the document, one apparently the original & one the current!

 

Strangley though, the current contains section 3.1 stating "the total charge for credit is £216.85 consisting of £216.85 interest. This is based on credit of £1,500 being borrowed at start of agreement...", however, the alleged original doesn't contain anything to do with the above amounts.

 

Furthermore, my trouble started when I received a £12 charge refund from them, so I deducted this amount off the payment I made that same month so the credit + my payment totalled just over the minimum payment due. They then started chasing me for the £12 shortfall. When I contacted them to explain what I'd done they said a credit/refund didn't count as a payment, by this time they had taken my life time balance transfer rate off me thus doubling my interest from £100 to £200 per month (I simply cannot afford this). I cannot however see anything to do with this in the documents they have now sent me. If it's not in the documents then how can they justify what they've done?

 

I will see if my husband can try to get my documents posted on here somehow later on so hopefully someone may take a look at them but in the meantime any advice or help is much appreciated.

Thanks

[waroo]

Just been looking through what Halifax sent me again & looking at the letter (details of which I posted in my first post) they state "they have enclosed with this letter a copy of my reconstituted version of the executed agreement comprising both the original & current terms & conditions..."

 

Are they trying to say they've sent a reconstituted version of the agreement + original T&Cs + current T&Cs? or are they trying to say that the pages stapled together of the original & current T&Cs are the agreement? I haven't received anything like what I know a CCA will normally resemble.

 

I keep looking over it all & I just keep getting more confused as to what they are saying they've actually sent.

 

All the pages they have sent are just typed up in word doc style & printed on white A4 paper, anyone could do that & type my details onto the top couldn't they? There isn't even anywhere on any of the pages where a signature of date is asked for

[babybear39]

Can you scan and post what you've received (minus personal details of course).

[waroo]

I am going to see if my husband can help me as I don't really know how to do it properly for the purpose of putting it on here. I'll try to get it done this evening one way or another. Theres quite a few pages though

[rhos123]

Just been looking through what Halifax sent me again & looking at the letter (details of which I posted in my first post) they state "they have enclosed with this letter a copy of my reconstituted version of the executed agreement comprising both the original & current terms & conditions..."

 

Are they trying to say they've sent a reconstituted version of the agreement + original T&Cs + current T&Cs? or are they trying to say that the pages stapled together of the original & current T&Cs are the agreement? I haven't received anything like what I know a CCA will normally resemble.

 

I keep looking over it all & I just keep getting more confused as to what they are saying they've actually sent.

 

All the pages they have sent are just typed up in word doc style & printed on white A4 paper, anyone could do that & type my details onto the top couldn't they? There isn't even anywhere on any of the pages where a signature of date is asked for

halifax cca reconsituted version

 

are these the same recon terms/ agreement you have recived

Edited October 12, 2010 by rhos123
link not working

[rhos123]

 

are these like the ones you have recived.

[waroo]

Yes, the one supposed to be the current one is identical, the one supposed to be the original is almost the same except there are fewer points in the whole thing and there is nothing on the first page with the amounts about total charge for credit being £xx etc.

[rhos123]

hi, you need to send account in dispute letter as in post 8. have a poop scoop handy as no doubt you could recive this from them.

[dadofholly]

This link mayhelp you edit and upload the docs onto here.

 

It's in video format stage by stage.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?115-How-to-open-a-PhotoBucket-account-and-use-it-to-post-pictures-on-the-Consumer-Action-Group

[Bazooka Boo]

Please ensure you you remove all ID, bar codes funny square boxes, names addresses, AND reference numbers

Yours is still on your post Rhos.