ombudsman says no help about citi cards PPI reclaim - help

[rowan666]

having got my final reply letter from citi cards saying they did not mis sell the payment protector insurance on my credit card

( it was taken out in 1998 when they called themselves assosiates),

 

i sent all info to Financial Ombudsman.

 

I have just got a letter from the Ombudsman saying they cannot help me,

as they only came into play in 2001, and citi / associates were not members of any ombudsman schemes , so they cannot lookinto my complaint.

 

surely they cannot wriggle out of this by this method?

 

can i get any help please to find out if i should appeal, or what else i could do ?

 

thank you.

[firstship]

FOS not always helpful,what a rubbish excuse "they did not exist in 1998"..............what reasons have you given Citi for the mis-sold PPI,post up the letter you sent them minus all personal details,we will see if we can help you get this back on track................FS

Edited September 29, 2010 by firstship
spelling

[rowan666]

hello, thank you for getting in touch, first letter to citi cards was -

acc.no.************

dear sirs

this letter is a request to reclaim repayment of my Cardholder Payment Protection insurance i have paid on this account.i have my invoices showing the policy insurance taken each month as far back as 1998 ( i enclose a copy of the earliest invoice i have showing the policy insurance ), the amount i have paid on the invoices i hold comes to over £4000.00 alone.

when i received this credit card, the policy insurance was added by yourselves straight away on the account, i was never asked if i wanted or needed the insurance, you just started charging me each month on my invoice.

I contacted the Financial Ombudsman sevice over this to get advice, and they have told me to contact you, and ask you to repay the monies you owe for the insurance you took over all the years for this policy insurance.

i look forward to an early reply.

 

i won't make this post any longer, if you need/want the rest of letters between me and citi i will happily post next.

thank you again

[firstship]

Rowan666.......

.....the reason (1) you have given is more than justification for mis-sold to apply,however additional reasons should assist for example...

......where you self employed????

did you have any underlying medical condition???????

was PPI a condition of getting the CC?????

where you asked if you already had insurance in place?????????

where you told you have the option to source your own insurance?????????

 

these are a few examples of why PPI can be regarded as mis-sold.

 

I would suggest you send a CCA request template letter on CAG file and ask for copies of the signed agreement and copies of the PPI agreement,

they may try"we dont keep records going back that far,

should this happen,

 

come back with their reply

 

there are other routes to take,also write to Citi again and use your original reason plus any other reasons I have indicated as well

 

,have you checked on this site how to work out mis-sold PPI +interest etc????????????????

 

if unsure we can guide you through this.

 

I think Citi are trying it on and need to be put under pressure by you,

for example Citi say the PPI was not mis-sold,

to be this sure they have to have copy of the PPI agreement,

which I doubt they have.......FS

[Actualknowledge]

The FOS does not have jurisdiction over things that happened before it existed as the business was not covered by it at that time (it cannot have been, as it did not exist.). Sadly, that is the end of the matter with FOS.

[rowan666]

hello, thank you for the reply.

in that first letter i realised i did not say any of those things i should have,

 

when they got back in toch with me to say they had looked at my claim,

and i had not cancelled the ppi when i got the c.card,

so it was me that decided i wanted ppi, and as it was a postal app. and they did not talk to me.

 

My reply to them was i was self employed when i took the card out, it would have been on the application i was self employed,

and i was sure it was up to them to make sure the insurance they sold was fit for the person buying it.

 

they came back firstly saying i had the policy from 2002,

i said no,1998, then their final letter saying again it was clear on the form,

i said yes ( which im sure i did'nt ), and i could have cancelled it , but i didnt.

 

i know this sounds stupid, but i assumed i had to have insurance to have the credit card, so i just kept paying it.

so as id had the final letter from them i them forwarded it all to the ombudsman, and the outcome you know.

 

can i go back to citi cards even though ive had a final letter about the claim from them ?

 

would is the next needed route i need to do from here please ?

[rowan666]

hello, yes sadly it is the end of the financial ombudsman been able to help, i hope there may be other avenues though.

[firstship]

666........

.....Actualknowledge correct in as much that they FOS do not have jurisdiction over anything that was prior to their existence,

 

however their lack of any advice is just typical and unhelpful

 

.I would not leave it there,

they accepted PPI even though you could not claim due to being self employed,

the PPI was not fit for purpose.

 

Citi refer back to postal application,

call their bluff,

I would be very surprised if they can produce the agreement with signature and PPI agreement with signature(not impossible but try).

 

Send SAR cost £10 recorded,

ask for statements and CC signed agreement and signed PPI agreement including terms and conditions

and all other data they hold regarding the account,you need to be specific in your SAR application about what you require.........

 

........I would pursue them on this,ignore the fact that they say this is their final letter,the SAR is a separate request..........

 

.......FS

[rowan666]

hello

posted a new thread which i didnt need to do -sorry ! could not find this to reply to... okay i will do as you say, do i send to the address i have been writing to, or another address as it's something diffrent im asking for ? do i send a £10 postal order ? and just write a cover letter asking for copy of my original app.form, and agreement i signed and ppi i said yes to ( i have statements back from 1998 ), do i give a time limit on how quick i get this from them, or not ?

thanks for advice

666

[firstship]

If you have statements going back to 1998,thats fine all the charges will appear as you are aware,SAR Citi direct and address it to their Data Controller,ask for a signed copy of the application form,a signed copy of the agreement,and a signed copy of the PPI agreement,plus copies of all other data they hold concerning the account,advise them you do not require statements,it will save a large parcel in the post.SAR letter in CAG template file send with £10 PO and send recorded,they have 40 days to reply,send to address you have been dealing with,...FS

[rowan666]

dear fs

thank you for all that, i will do this now and let you know the outcome they come back with.

rowan

[Bosund]

Rowan,

 

Two things, was your card originally with Citi or with Peoples Bank? The second is that the FOS have just come to an agreement with Citi over PPI payments taken out prior to 2001 so I would call the FOS, give them your reference no. and find out if anything has changed.

 

What they have agreed I don't know but could be worth asking about.

 

The reason I ask about Peoples Bank is that Citi bought a lot of accounts that started in 1998/99 and Peoples Bank was at the time regulated by the FOS.

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

[rowan666]

dear Bosun

the credit card was originally with The Associates, then citi cards. i spoke to the guy from fos today, and he told me they have been trying many cases concerning citi, and its come back the anything before 2001, they defo do not have any jurisdiction, they can try to look at the actual insurance company used at the time, but if it was Metlife or Cumberland, then they also have no jurisdiction with those 2 either.so im asking for info from them, and we'll see what turns up.

rowan

[Bosund]

Hi Rowan,

 

How are things going? Had a post by CitizenB the other day, part of which read: -

 

The reason the debt is assigned is immaterial. For instance, books of loans may be sold on to be collected as an asset rather than as a discounted debt.

 

In some instances, the debt collector may have purchased a debt but not have the relevant agreement. Whilst, in general, ‘liabilities’ cannot be assigned there must be a question mark over whether ‘duties’ are the same. This is important since there is a rule, expressed in Tito v Waddell (No 2) [1977] Ch 106 at 289 to 302, that where a benefit is conditional upon some burden, the assignee must also take the burden. An example is where the contractor has the right to mine on condition that they pay compensation to those disrupted by the mining. If they assign their right to mine, the assignee takes this right subject to the duty to pay compensation.

 

Therefore, there is a strong argument that under the Act, the right to payment is never absolute. It is always subject to duties (many of which are imposed under the Act). For instance, the right to enforce the credit agreement at all is subject to the duty to comply with section 77 or 78. This duty is not a ‘liability’ as such under the credit agreement but is a condition of the right to repayment.

May 2008

 

Susan Edwards

Head of Credit Investigations and Enforcement, Office of Fair Trading

Now I know this is to do with Debt Collectors and s77 & 78, etc, but I would also assume that it could quite reasonably apply to any company that bought/took over/was assigned an account to which was attached a benefit and that it was not unreasonable for it to be obligated to any liabilities.

I am awaiting, with baited breath 8-), for my reply from the FOS to which I will reply with the above, and also copy the OFT, if they reject my claim.

Regards,

Bosun.

[rowan666]

hello bosun

still waiting on SAR info i requested from them..... will let you know soon hopefully...

rowan

[rowan666]

hello

well citi cards have surpassed themselves ! i sent SAR,asking for all things firstship told me to ask for, but not invoices (as i have all back to 1989). i got back a letter '' thank you for your recent request for copies of the personal data under s 7 of the data protection act 1998 regarding your account ''.

please find enclosed

copies of the statements issed on the account - ( only back to 2004 though ???)

copies of correspondence received from you.

notes of manual intervention.

we have not provided you with copies of the terms and conditions as these fall outside the definition of personal data for the purposes of the data protection act 1998. similarly, s 7 (1) © only requires a data controller to provide a copy the information constituting any personal data, not the actual document on which the personal data is recorded; therefore we have supplied a copy of the information on the agreement / application.

Unfortunately, we have been unable to locate the application form for your client under the account number given.if your client knows of any previous account number they may have made the original agreement under we will be happy to search again for this infomation.

 

so , they've managed to send invoices i did'nt ask for ( though not all of them ), and they all have the account number on them, but they say they cannot find the application under my account number !!!! nothing else though that was asked for.

Can i ask where do i go from here ?

regards

rowan

[Bosund]

Hi rowan,

 

Don't know offhand but hopefully Enron may be around with some advice.

 

Have to shoot off tonight but will get back to you over the w/e.

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

[firstship]

Typical,dont ask for statements and they send them 6 years worth is the normal by most banks....so they state T&Cs and signed agreements fall outside of the data act,if you read the act it could be perhaps have that interpretation applied,Bloody Awkward comes to mind,so CCA them cost £1 they have 14 days to respond if not they are in default.Citi do not seem to be responding to your original request for PPI refund,is there any move onthis front????????or are they still no bothering to reply???????????????.........fs

[rowan666]

hello firstship,

thanks for getting back to me.

 

i have had ( approx 4 months ago ) final letter from citi cards saying they will not be refunding any of the ' cardholder repayment protection ' ( ppi ) on the credit card account,

due to it been a postal application which they say i selected the product, and that no sales call took place & citi cards were not in a position to assess the ''best interests'' of their customers.

 

I replied with a letter stating i did'nt think their letter offered a satisfactory justification that the policy was sold to my fairly or justly,

and it is the seller who should check if the policy been sold is fit for purpose etc etc.

 

Their final letter just re-states that i selected the product, that no advise was given by them,

i.e - thay acted on my instructions to provide this product

( which as my application will have said 'self employed', was a waste of money unless i ceased trading to enable me to claim against it !!!!!!!!! )

and their decision is, they do not uphold my complaint,

and please go to the F.O.S if you wish, etc etc.

 

I've got to say i do not remember back in 1998 if i did or did not tick the ppi cover,

but i do know i will have put self employed,

 

so i sent everything to F.O.S, and thats where my threads on here start

- no joy to help me as they only from 2001. Any advice from her please ?

 

your reply earlier says cca them - this the next step ??

regards rowan

[firstship]

Is this not a case of You stated self employed they ignored this very important information and should have advised you that the PPI was not available to self employed customers,their mistake so refund is I think their only course,however CCA them amd ask for a copy of the signed agreement,T&CS and PPI agreement,should produce some information to back up your claim,they may try and state PPI not covered by 1974 CCA so add to your letter that you would also like a copy of the PPI and the T&CS for the PPI. as this is a dispute at the present time................all the best............FS

Edited November 20, 2010 by firstship
spelling

[rowan666]

hello fs

thanks for getting back to me. im a little confused, and please don't think im daft, but im going to just ask ! i thought the way to get the signed agreement ( showing what i wrote / ticked ) was asked for in the last dealings ( S.A.R ), what is the difference of asking for this CCA ? and if they have already said they have not sent the terms and conditions as they fall out of the definition etc etc , why will they do it now??? ive tried to read up on all this legal bits, but my head is in bits now ! could you just talk me through why / the reasons this is the next step please?

rowan

[firstship]

666............The SAR should have produced account agreement account application form and PPI agreement,because they are being bloody awkward ,for the sake of a letter, and £1 PO, I suggested you CCA them to produce those agreements along with T&Cs,I am only suggesting you take this route to save letter ping pong over the SAR and their definitions of what data they should supply and what they should not,they have 12 days to respond to your CCA,it smells like they do not have agreements..................once all the doors are closed pursue the PPI refund................FS

[rowan666]

fs - thanks for reply, okay so what your saying is even though those things should have come with SAR, doing this will mean they HAVE TO produce them ? and you say once doors closed pursue my ppi , can i still do this, as ive had their final letter saying they are not re-paying ? how can i make that happen ?

666

[firstship]

Read the Sticky.PPI Win in court................ignore their Final Letter...........make your claim again and head this your Final Letter use the details in the Sticky........threaten them with court action (before doing this be sure you are prepared to go ahead with your threat) and state should they not respond within 14 days you will take legal proceedings without further notice... success in this area is very high read other PPI threads............FS

[rowan666]

hello again

sent SAR to Citi Cards in December of 2010, heard nothing, wrote 2nd letter to push them along in late dec, no answer. Today recieved a letter from Opus who have taken over all Citi Cards customer base, it reads -

we cannot fulfil your section 78 request, we have refunded the fee onto your Opus credit card account and advise that you are still liable for the balance.

We would like to remind you that a section 78 request does not entitle you to withhold your regular monthly payments.

For the reasons set out above i can confirm your complaint has now been closed.

If your not happy with my responce you can go to f.o s - info enclosed etc etc etc ....

And so the cirlce closes, as this is where i was at the start of all this, as i cannot go to f.o.s to act on my behalf as the complaint is before they came into force, so im at a loss now, anybody any ideas please ??

R.