Need to strike off business, tax outstanding- Pls Help!

[electrica77]

Right. I have spoken to the inland Revenue again today, and they have confirmed that they will not be taking any legal action 'at the current time', but if my circumstances change, I should contact them to make payments. So basically they are just keeping the company open (even though it's a PLC) in case I managed to recover from being a single mother on benefit and have some unspecified sum to throw their way each month for an unspecified time. They wouldn't give me the name, number (great way to get people to call for payment) or department of the person who is dealing with this now, the reason behind the decision, or any time limits. They couldn't explain why I had been sent no letter of acknowledgement, or any letter telling me what my obligations are, what their decisions are, or what constitutes a change of circumstance, or why they are continuing to harass a single mother on benefit, suffering from depression, for money she clearly does not have. I think my blood pressure has gone up by about 20 points.

 

I am absolutely at my wit's end. They gave me a complaints address, but of course, it won't be dealt with by teh person who is now looking after the account, it will be dealt with by the call-taking department, and they will 'pass on' concerns if they feel they can't answer them. I told them I think it is completely inappropriate and unfair to keep me from speaking to the right dept, and that it is adding considerably to my stress, especially now it could be hanging over me for years. I also have legal obligations to close the company down, and I keep receiving letters from all departments of the HMRC and Companies House because the company still shows as live. I would also assume that it is earning interest all this time too.

 

Are they allowed to do this? It seems they are just blocking the strike off process and deliberately making themselves uncontactable. What do I do from here? I feel totally stuck, and I am so angry, I've done everything they asked me to.

[Bigdebtor]

Have you sent any letter like the one I sent - shown in a post above? This seems to be working for me now as HMRC have withdrawn their objection after I sent it. HMRC didn't tell me this - I found this out from Companies House - and am now having to wait a further 3 months before Co House will dissolve it - as they need to re-advertise again- so just a case of HMRC wasting more public money on a hopeless case situation!

 

I also understand Companies House themselves may dissolve a company if you simply don't file info about directors etc. or send in any further statutory accounts and refuse to pay the late filing penalties - but not sure f this will work in face of HMRC objections?

 

Hope this helps?

 

Good luck!

 

BD

[electrica77]

Hi Bigdebtor,

 

yes and no. I explained I had no money, no assets, living on benefit, was suffering constant panic attacks due to the ongoing situation etc and asked that they view the situation 'sympathetically' (rather than try to direct them to a course of action, as advised by my VAT friend). I asked that they give me information as to how I resolve the situation and said I was available for contact. Naturally they have responded to none of this, have not contacted me, and have left the company in limbo. Companies house have told me categorically that they cannot intervene, but that HMRC will more than likely 'lose interest eventually', and I should just leave it.

 

I think I will have one last stab, and copy your more strongly worded letter, perhaps emphasising the health side again and complain about their lack of contact and deliberate unavailability. If they don't respond to that, I will take it to my MP, as I seem to be being treated differently to everyone else who has experience of this process.

 

If they think I'm personally liable, fine, make me liable, I still have nothing to give and striking off the company won't change my liability. If they don't think I am, they are deliberately blocking the legitimate strike off of a PLC that has failed, causing unwarranted stress to the director.

 

My VAT friend has said it is unacceptable for them to say they can't give me names and departments etc. I am going to talk to him at the weekend.

 

If anyone has any further suggestions, I'd love to hear them. I do not want this to hit me again in 8 years time when I have a mortgage and another child or something.

[toddle2u]

Alternatively you could save yourself all the stress and do nothing and wait for CH has to strike off the company for not filing the statutory records

[electrica77]

to be honest toddle2u, I am starting to come to the conclusion that if I do nothing, they will almost certainly get fed up at some point. If they are so relaxed about it that they can't even be bothered to write to me, they can't be pursuing it very heavily. the problem is I don't want them to pop up in a couple of years demanding money- what triggers them off for instance? Can they look at my bank accounts etc?. By taking their current course of action are they tacitly saying 'don't worry about it?'. What's the time limit on it, and is there a statute of limitation on the debt? I want to do a masters in a year or two to retrain as a psychotherapist and get off benefit, and I don't want to get my funding together to find it gets taken away by the Revenue. I did state in my letter that I was happy to discuss a final lump payment or a payment plan and they ahven't responded to that at all.

 

Do you know at what point CH strike the company off if you don't file records? I keep getting letters from the Revenue asking for PAYE and accounts to be filed etc- should ignore these? Can CH strike off a company that isn't filing if there is an objection against it?

 

I did try to write you a PM asking about some of this last night, but apparently your mailbox is full!

[toddle2u]

It won't be HMRC that strike the company off it will be Companies House for non filing of statutory accounts and Annual Return. CH are fairly hot on this these days and they apply fairly qucikly after non-compliance. So yes ignore the letters and they will apply for the strike off automatically. Unfortunately this could mean HMRC object again. My opinion is just ignore CH filing, ignore HMRC threats, do not offer to pay them anything (the company owes the money not you), do not pay them anything and just forget about it and get on with your life. They cannot come back to you demanding money in a few years time unless the company is formally liquidated and the liquidator files an adverse report to the DTI about your conduct as a Director which IMHO in this instance is very very unlikely. Even then HMRC would have to serve you with a personal liability notice which in itself is rare and difficult to prove.

 

Forget about it and move on.

[kurvaface]

Hi electra,

 

As your business is technically still in existance (I undrerstand), I would recommend joining the FSB (federation of small business) . They provide a fantastic service in all disputes involving HMRC and effectively stand between you and them, taking all the flack and handling HMRC. Worth a look....

[Bigdebtor]

Electra

 

As I understand it (but I could be wrong) the HMRC objection will stop CH striking your company off (NB - it is NOT a PLC - that's for the likes of M&S, RBS, BT etc.) - so just sitting back and ignoring everything in the hope CH will strike you off for non-filing of shuttle returns, annual accounts etc. won't get you anywhere (at least not fast).

 

I was advised I had to show I was being pro-active - and hence not negligent by default - which is why I wrote HMRC the letter - which seems to have worked even although HMRC did not have the courtesy to reply to me directly.

 

I would advise you do the same - send it recorded delivery - and insist on a reply within say 28 days - or follow up with a reminder after 28 days. They will get "fed up" more quickly if you give them more work to do. As public "servants" they did not "sign up" to do any more work than absolutely necessary - with job security, flexitime, generous sick and maternity leave, early retirement and inflation proof pensions their main objectives (way ahead of serving the public!) - so show them that withdrawing their objection is an easier course (and a quicker way to a long tea break) than not withdrawing it.

 

Hope this helps?

 

BD

 

PS - If this offends any public servant who is reading it during my (i.e. working) time - then don't waste your (our?) time protesting - as I'll just take a leaf out of the Public Sector hand book and ignore your protest, justified or otherwise.

[kurvaface]

I would advise you do the same - send it recorded delivery - and insist on a reply within say 28 days - or follow up with a reminder after 28 days. They will get "fed up" more quickly if you give them more work to do. As public "servants" they did not "sign up" to do any more work than absolutely necessary - with job security, flexitime, generous sick and maternity leave, early retirement and inflation proof pensions their main objectives (way ahead of serving the public!) - so show them that withdrawing their objection is an easier course (and a quicker way to a long tea break) than not withdrawing it.

 

 

This paragrapgh, more than any other I have seen on CAG pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with the UK although I would add that my wife is a teacher. She works 12 hours a day minimum, runs school clubs and goes way beyond the bounds of her contract in terms of commitment (And she will not be striking next Wed). I have been trying to get her to quit teaching and come to work in my business where she would add immense value because her efforts at the moment are wasted by the parasites that make up the bulk of the public sector.

 

Yes... overwhelm the HMRC with a few letters, it might just make them crumble lol:roll:

[electrica77]

Thanks for the advice all. If I did write a letter, what would be the best way to word it so that I get them to withdraw their objection, but don't provoke their wrath or get them chasing me again? I'm rather surprised that their repsonse to being told the company was defunct and I am now living on benefit as a single parent and suffering from long term depression was to object again tbh. I'm not sure what I can add to that. I think what they have done is 'waive' the debt, which means they leave it open to come back and chase you for the money again in the future. It does seem to me that they are not being professional or ethical in the slightest.

 

I'm not sure this is the place for a debate about public servants, but both my parents were civil servants, my dad died in service and my mum is now an NHS manager for an ambulance trust. I know first hand the long hours they put in, going above and beyond duty on many occasions, how conscientious they were (and their colleagues), and how poorly they are treated. When my dad died, his pension vanished- my mum did not get a penny that he had paid in for the last 30 odd years. My mum, after 17 years of service for the NHS (and that means going in in emergencies, going in on Christmas Day, New year's Eve, walking miles in teh snow to get to work, staying on long after the contracted hours when there is a problem) , is having her department ripped apart and decimated, and she is being forced to either accept a job two hours drive away, or no redundancy. Having worked in government myself, and having lots of friends in public service I think most public servants are motivated and decent people. Of course you get the odd deadweight, but show me any company where that isn't true. Most public servants are as frustrated by the system as everyone else, and often powerless to change it. I think that is partially the result of having a political set up that allows short-term politics to flourish, and therefore many cyclical and damaging changes to our institutions, a surfeit of bureaucracy that stems from government, the EU and various other interested bodies, and an ever-widening remit to fix the ills of society. So I don't think it's down to public servants being lazy at all. If they were, this country wouldn't even function, it's a lack of will at the top to change things, and stop engaging in short-termism.

 

Of course the Revenue are all Satan's minions (apart from my friend, who is great!)

 

*gets off soapbox*

[Bigdebtor]

Electra

 

I would do a letter along the lines of the one I sent (in an earlier thread).

 

BTW I accept that many (indeed most) professionals in teaching, NHS etc. are hard working and serve us well.

 

My venom is really aimed at the pen pushers who have never experienced the stress of customers not paying bills, banks cutting overdraft limits and imposing huge unfair penalty charges etc.

 

The way HMRC reacts to any business closing which owes them money confirms my view that these people are not in the real world!

 

Good luck!

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

Can readers to this thread please check out my situation in the attached thread?

 

Thanks

 

BD

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?329855-I-m-getting-pursued-personally-for-debts-incurred-by-my-failed-limited-company.&p=3642760&viewfull=1#post3642760

[electrica77]

Well, another update for you. After the fiasco above, I just totally lost patience and decided that if they want the money they'll come looking for it. I spoke to my tax inspector friend again, and he said what they'll have done is decided that it's more than their job's worth to write the debt off completely, so they have waived it temporarily. he told me that after 4 years they have no right to chase it any more. He advised me not to poke the sleeping dragon basically, as he said that even though it's frustrating, in a little over two years they will no longer be able to pursue it, and if they do come knocking in the meantime, it is still a PLC and I am not liable until they present me with a personality liability order. He says they won't do this because the cost of an investigation will outweigh the amount they can retrieve, and I'm unlikely to have the money anyway.

 

So indirectly, and it the most abysmal, incompetent, and frankly stressful way possible, it looks like they've more or less let me off the hook. The letters have certainly stopped, and I feel like I couldn't have done any more to try and sort this out. I've offered to try and make payments, but if they won't even tell me who I can usefully communicate with, that is their failing. Even my tax friend was stunned at how it's been handled.

 

Oh well, Happy Christmas everyone, and I hope you all resolve your issues with the nightmare that is our tax system.

[toddle2u]

Yes put it out of mind and get on with enjoying Christmas. The chances of them coming after you personally are NIL!

[Sushv8]

Hi Toddle2u

 

I've got into a mess with my limited company. I hired an accountant for £1,500 (recommended by a friend). Needless to say I couldn't really afford an accountant but had to because I was making a mess handling it myself.

Companies house rang me to say they were going to start criminal proceedings for late accounts. I've chased my accountant and he's not returning my messages. Today Companies House rang me, they were very understanding about my rubbish accountant. They said if I filled in a form to dissolve my company they will not chase me for my accounts, I won't be fined and no criminal proceedings. This had been a relief.

 

I now need to know once dissolved can HMRC chase me for VAT (around £10,000 owed) and Corporation tax. I haven't filed corp tax yet but I had an arrangement to pay Vat back that I can't afford to keep to anymore. I think i payed back £3000. Once I am dissolved do I still pay this and still file my Cirporation Tax? Is there a difference between dissolved and struck off?

 

I am the only employee of my company my only asset is my little laptop.

 

Please help, I've made a mess of everything trying to do it myself, so stressed and irritable and my accountant is MIA(!) I can't believe he was referred to me by someone I know. I'm paying his fee in installments. I think I'm going to stop after this - but he has my paperwork:(

[toddle2u]

now need to know once dissolved can HMRC chase me for VAT (around £10,000 owed) and Corporation tax.

 

No it's the Ltd Co debt not yours. They can only do this if you have been found beguilty of wrongful trading or trading whilst insolvent. Only an Insolvency Pracitioner can instigate these proceedings and as it is unlikely that an IP is going to be appointed you can't be done for this. There are other instances but they are not relevant here.

 

I haven't filed corp tax yet

 

Don't file them and don't get accountant to do any more work. You could try asking for your money back - you never know I doubt it but it's worth asking.

 

I had an arrangement to pay Vat back that I can't afford to keep to anymore.

 

Don't pay anymore. Just ring them tell them you've ceased to trade and the company has no assets and you intend to apply for a strike off. Also put this in writing to them and any other creditors

 

Once I am dissolved do I still pay this and still file my Cirporation Tax? Is there a difference between dissolved and struck off?

 

No and no

 

I'm paying his fee in installments

 

Don;t pay him another penny. It's a waste of money as you don't need to file accounts and he sounds useless

 

but he has my paperwork

 

Ask for it back

[Sushv8]

now need to know once dissolved can HMRC chase me for VAT (around £10,000 owed) and Corporation tax.

 

No it's the Ltd Co debt not yours. They can only do this if you have been found beguilty of wrongful trading or trading whilst insolvent. Only an Insolvency Pracitioner can instigate these proceedings and as it is unlikely that an IP is going to be appointed you can't be done for this. There are other instances but they are not relevant here.

 

 

 

Don't file them and don't get accountant to do any more work. You could try asking for your money back - you never know I doubt it but it's worth asking.

 

 

 

Don't pay anymore. Just ring them tell them you've ceased to trade and the company has no assets and you intend to apply for a strike off. Also put this in writing to them and any other creditors

 

 

 

No and no

 

 

 

Don;t pay him another penny. It's a waste of money as you don't need to file accounts and he sounds useless

 

 

 

Ask for it back

[Sushv8]

No it's the Ltd Co debt not yours. They can only do this if you have been found beguilty of wrongful trading or trading whilst insolvent. Only an Insolvency Pracitioner can instigate these proceedings and as it is unlikely that an IP is going to be appointed you can't be done for this. There are other instances but they are not relevant here.

 

 

 

Don't file them and don't get accountant to do any more work. You could try asking for your money back - you never know I doubt it but it's worth asking.

 

 

 

Don't pay anymore. Just ring them tell them you've ceased to trade and the company has no assets and you intend to apply for a strike off. Also put this in writing to them and any other creditors

 

 

 

No and no

 

 

 

Don;t pay him another penny. It's a waste of money as you don't need to file accounts and he sounds useless

 

 

 

Ask for it back

 

 

 

Toddle2u you are brilliant, bless you for being here. I didnt believe in forums but youve given 100x better advise than accountants who are paid thousands not just today to me but reading your earlier posts you've helped others too. It is a MASSIVE relieg. Thank you!

 

I will ring them and put it in writing.

 

The worst mIstake I made was using my business account like my personal account - I regularly paid bills and rent from this account. Will this mean the IP will get involved?

 

I'm turning to PAYE after this - less money but more hopefully. Thanks again. Keep helping others:)

Edited May 24, 2012 by Sushv8

[Sushv8]

 

 

 

Toddle2u you are brilliant, bless you for being here. I didnt believe in forums but youve given 100x better advise than accountants who are paid thousands not just today to me but reading your earlier posts you've helped others too. It is a MASSIVE relieg. Thank you!

 

I will ring them and put it in writing.

 

The worst mIstake I made was using my business account like my personal account - I regularly paid bills and rent from this account. Will this mean the IP will get involved?

 

I'm turning to PAYE after this - less money but more hopefully. Thanks again. Keep helping others:)

[Sushv8]

Sorry I'm new at this - dont know if my reply went through sorry

[toddle2u]

The worst mIstake I made was using my business account like my personal account - I regularly paid bills and rent from this account. Will this mean the IP will get involved?

 

If the strike off application goes through there will be no IP involved

 

Complete the DS01 form which you can get off the companies house website send it off with a cheque for £10. If HMRC object to the strike off let us know

[speechless4]

Hi

 

I opened a limited company in Dec 2009 purely to do extra locum work as a doctor along with my normal NHS PAYE job. I used an accountant to do this. Snce then I have kept up to date with payments for PAYE and corporation tax. I am up to date up until the tax year April 2011.

 

Since August 2011 I decided to take a year out of my NHS PAYE job and locum full time for 1 year (till August 2012) therefore being paid via my limited company. I have since then probably made over 60k. Now, I have been paying the PAYE bills that HMRC keep sending me and the filing for corporation tax has not yet been filed by my accountant but I think it will be filed this October. I am not going to be able to afford the corporation tax as I have been using my business account like a savings account and the money I have saved I have transferred to other accounts as I am getting married next year and i will be using that money to pay for my wedding. I am now back in my PAYE NHS job and do the odd locum shifts but not to the extent of what I did last year.

 

What do I do about my this tax issue? Is there any way of avoiding this tax or pay the minimum?Do I ask my accountant to file the corporation tax stuff? I will not be able to afford it if he does. Is there going to be problem when HMRC see I've been using my business account as a personal account (paying bills, eating out etc.)? To be honest this has not been explained by my accountant and so i carried on the way I am. shall I file for wounding the company up even though it's still active?

 

My limited company is registered at my home address- is my home at risk along with my car etc?

 

Just wanted some heads up before I file my Ltd company tax, just been scared with all these situations on the forum.

 

Any advice would be appreciated

 

Thanks

 

Speechless4u

[BazzaS]

Speechless4, you might want to get a mod to create your own thread for you : you've posted on someone else's existing thread.

 

Have you been working as a Locum Consultant?.

If not, I'm concerned that a Limited Company wasn't a good way forward : it's hard to be "an Independent Practitioner" at less senior grades, where you might have been better on pure PAYE from the Locum agency(cies), to avoid the issues of IR35 and "disguised employment"

 

In what form have you been moving money from the business? Expenses? Dividend? Salary? Other?

 

You mention PAYE : If you've (with your Director's hat on) have paid yourself salary, and the company has paid employer's NI and PAYE, and your employee's NI has been deducted too : there should be no further sum owing for this.

These sums can come out of the business lawfully, and would reduce corporation tax liability as they would reduce any company profit.

 

Expenses : dining out MIGHT be a legitimate expense.

Were these "necessary business meals"? "Subsistence" (while working away from your home base)?

Incurred whilst travelling to/from your work base while working away from home?.

 

Dividend? This would be "funded" from profits, and attract both corporation tax for the company and personal tax for you, but not PAYE nor NI.

If the company would have made say, 50k profit on 60k income there would be £10.5k corporation tax at 21%.

If you took the remaining 39.5k as dividend, you'd have a further £9.5k tax to pay (but as personal, not company tax).

 

Other: where you may be on shakier ground is other payments from the company (e.g. Personal bills)

These could be viewed as an "unlawful dividend" if you've taken them from the company if they aren't legitimate expenses, and they've left the company insolvent / unable to meet its tax liability.

If they were to fund legitimate expenses they'd be fine : not only can the company pay them direct, they lower the company's profit and thus it's corporation tax liability.

Have you asked your accountant if you are claiming all your allowable expenses?

Allowable portion of : GMC fee? MDU/MPS fee? BMA/Trades Union sub?, Royal College membership fee?(Unless you are claiming these on your personal tax : you can't claim them twice!)

Travel to/from work base away from home? Subsistence while working away from home?

Do you run your companies office from home? Do you then claim the companies contribution towards utilities costs?

 

I'd never encourage tax evasion, nor using the company to pay personal bills. However, you should ensure you are claiming any and all allowable expenses : talk to your accountant to see if things are as bad as you fear!

Edited August 18, 2012 by BazzaS

[electrica77]

I'm just updating this to let anyone that's interested know that finally this year, HMRC stopped objecting to strike off. I have no idea why, they didn't communicate with me about it at all. I only found out because I rang up for the umpteenth time to ask them to stop sending reminders to file accounts etc as the company was no longer trading. I explained that they were the ones not letting me strike it off and therefore keeping teh process open. The lady said that they were no longer objecting, so I rang companies house, and completely out of the blue they said that they had proposed strike off again 3 months ago, and it was due to go through in two weeks. I got a letter confirming the company has been dissolved as of 14th August!

 

To say I am relieved is an understatement. It's drawn a line under a very painful chapter of my life, and it means I don't have to worry about what *might* happen all teh time.

 

If I have any advice to give to anyone in similar circumstances it is this: Get yourself a good accountant who is local to you and who you can visit in person, and make sure they are interested in giving you good advice and help, and not just taking a monthly fee and sending you reminder emails. Secondly, When you speak to HMRC, no matter how scared you are, do it promptly, get it out of the way, and make sure you get the Name of the person you speak to, teh dept they are in, and make notes of EVERYTHING they say. Keep records of anything you post to them, including post office tracking receipts.

 

Good luck to everyone else still trying to sort their companies out.

[toddle2u]

Elctrica77 Thanks for updating us of the situation and glad it was a positive outcome if a bit long winded!!