Do HSBC credit card agreements exist?

[Docman]

I'm helping a friend in her battle against HSBC (there is a separate thread so I won't go into all background the details here). My point raised here is a tangential one.

Although HSBC state in their POCs that there was an agreement in 1997, they have not produced a copy. They have now confirmed in response to a CPR 31.14 request that they do not have a copy and do not need to produce a copy because it is no longer in their possession or control. They then continue a load of waffle about Carey v HSBC allowing them to reconstruct an agreement which doesn't have to be signed etc.

I can deal with the Carey point (unless we lose the DJ lottery) but over the weekend I have been researching this 'do not have in the Bank's possession' point. It seems to me that HSBC is under a 'triple' lock to keep records. First, it should keep accounting records under the Companies Act to show its assets and liabilities. Second, as a financial institution, it is subject to the Money Laundering Regulations which mean it has to keep records from five years AFTER the end of the relationship. Finally, the rules of the regulator [the FSA] require the Bank to have adequate systems in place to maintain records to meet its statutory and regulatory obligations.

With this kind of 'triple lock' in place, I asked myself just how likely is it that HSBC could loose my friend's agreement (and mine as well as the same happened to me). And then I realised I haven't actually seen a credit agreement from HSBC on CAG. We have seen plenty of application forms and other flyers that have been signed for other credit card companies but none from HSBC itself, (ignoring for the moment ‘store' accounts like M&S). All I have seen are blank one page 'signature' sheets that seem to have been used from a pad in the mid to late 1990s. Sometimes these pad sheets have card holders’ information written in the top to allow the Bank to claim they have met the test in Carey but are otherwise unsigned.

So here is my question. Did HSBC credit agreements actually exist? Does anyone on CAG have or has seen anything like a credit agreement from HSBC, particularly one prior to 2003 and the Wilson v FCT case?

[AndyOrch]

HI Doc

 

Have you ever seen an elephant fly oops!!!!! apologies that song came into my mind after reading your post.

 

 

Document Retention

 

According to sections 221 and 222 of the Companies Act 1985, a public company is required to maintain records for a period of six years (section 222(5)(b).

 

As a loan agreement is active until the agreement is terminated, I would suggest that all the payment records (and other documents making up the file - including the agreement/application etc) would be "live" until the account is paid, or terminated - thus, the full file should be retained for at least six years after that.

 

This interpretation fits in with Inland Revenue legislation that requires prime documents to be retained for a period of six years - AFTER THE END OF THE RELEVANT ACCOUNTING PERIOD. That would mean some files need to be retained for up to seven years. The relevant legislation is found in Schedule 18 of the Finance Act 1998 (paragraph 21) - of particular significance is sub-paragraph (6) which states:

 

"The duty to preserve records under this paragraph includes a duty to preserve all supporting documents relating to the items mentioned in sub-paragraph (5)(a) and (b)."

 

Finally, key documents/application forms etc must be kept until 5 years after that business relationship has ended. This is a requirement of The Money Laundering Regulations 1993, 2003 and 2007.

Just to throw my 2peneth in.

Regards

Andy

[Docman]

Hi andy and thanks for the twopenniworth.

 

I hadn't thought of the tax man's requirements. So a four way lock on HSBC having to keep documents.

 

I've also been looking at a number of other threads in the DCAs and the HSBC fora. Same pattern, no agreements apart from ordinary typed sheets (not very professional) from 2004. What would happen if several defendants were all able to show the same, that HSBC didn't have an agreement and that their individual case wasn't a one off. If several individuals all say the same, could it be alledged that HSBC has either breached several statutory and/or regulatory requirments by not keeping documents safe OR that HSBC NEVER had credit card agreements in place in the first place.It may sound a daft idea but where is the evidence of ANY pre 2003 agreement?

[AndyOrch]

Excellent Idea Doc perhaps a word in the ear of Cag if the info can be collated or a thread dedicated (this one)?

 

 

Andy

[TWW]

I have been doing quite a lot of research on our friends at HSBC over the last year (in court with them in 2 weeks) and I have NEVER come across anyone who has had an HSBC CCA sent to them from this period. They do protest too much methinks!

[jon888999]

I have it on good authority that HSBC sub contracted the scanning and archiving of credit agreements to a company, whose employees decided to skip them instead of scanning them. Apparently this has happened on at least two occasions. Like you i've never managed to find anybody who has obtained a copy of an older credit agreement from HSBC.