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CCA, charges & credit agreement

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My husband took out a loan with Welcome in Dec 07.

 

We're planning to claim back the charges (£10 for a phone call????) on the account and the PPI as it was mis-sold on the basis my husband thought he had to have it in order to get the loan as his credit rating was poor.

 

I was just looking at the agreement they sent us, along with the statement of the account, and it is not very clear how everything is calculated. The PPI amount is included in the loan calculations rather than separately - does this mean the agreement is unenforceable? I'd be grateful if someone could look at it and let me know your thoughts.

 

Also, is it still possible to claim the charges and PPI back if this is the case?

 

*I am unable to post any images or links until I have made 20 posts - is this a new thing as I've put images up here previously?

 

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This is a multiple agreement (ie.loan + ppi) the ppi should be included in the TOTAL charge for credit....BUT should have seperate details on apr,total cost of ppi and also how much each month for the ppi,this figure can then be added to the monthly repayment... need to see agreement to comment further

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Received letter from DCA last week as debt has been passed on, so now springing back into action :) (didn't realise I'd left it so long!)

 

Here's the CCA, would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

 

Welcome Credit Agreement.pdf

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OK this was a phone or online application with ppi and accident cover.Both can be reclaimed....but more importantly this agreement is unenforceable as per my last post.

Dec 07 over 24 mths.....Is it payed off or not? To answer your orig question YES you can reclaim both ppi & accident plan

Have you been Mis Sold PPI. (Some standard Conditions for PPI)

 

a) Payment Protection Insurance cannot be made a condition of obtaining a loan. (This is the most common reason for mis selling)

b) You are permantley resident within the United Kingdom

c) You are Over 18 and Under 65 at the commencement of your loan, and you will not reach the age of 70 during the insured term.

d) You are in Full time employment – Some policies define Full time employment as being working Over 16 Hours per week and that you have been in full time employment for at least 6 Months prior to the start date of the policy.

e) Pre Excisting Medical Conditions may also Invalidate your Policy

f) Some policies may cover if you are self employed.. Check your T & C first though.

 

1 You were not in work or self employed at the time of sale

2 You were told that you had to take the PPI out at the same time as the loan or not at all

3 You were not asked whether you had any other insurance which would cover the loan

4 You were not told you could buy PPI elsewhere to cover the loan

5 You were sold a policy which had age restrictions which you fell outside of

6 You were led to believe that Payment Protection Insurance was compulsory

7 You were told that you would stand more chance of getting the loan if you took the Payment Protection Insurance

8 It was not explained to you that there were certain exclusions within the policy that could affect you

9 You were pressured into buying the PPI

10 You paid upfront for the PPI but it was not explained that there were some PPI policies where you could pay monthly

11 Your PPI was an upfront premium and you repaid the loan early and received no refund

12 you increased your loan and the PPI was increased automatically

13 The Terms & Conditions of the small print were not fully explained to you

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Hi Sand Dancer, thanks for the reply!

 

I am pleased to hear it is unenforceable (I had a suspicion), and that he can reclaim the PPI and accident plan. You are correct it was a phone application.

 

The loan is not paid off, although he has paid more than the original amount! We have suffered financial difficulty since early 2009 and there is still a balance of around £1200 outstanding. Much of this of course is charges and interest on charges.

 

My husband was mis-sold because:

 

1. he was led to believe it was compulsory

2. He was not told he could buy it elsewhere

3. He doesn't believe he was asked if he had other insurance that already covered it

 

What do we do next? And what does the unenforceable agreement actually mean with regards to the loan?

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I should outline the salient provisions of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Subject to exemptions, a regulated agreement is an agreement between an individual debtor and another person by which the latter

provides the former with a cash loan or other financial accommodation not exceeding a specified amount. Currently the

amount is £25,000. Section 61(1) sets out conditions which must be satisfied if a regulated agreement is to be treated as

properly executed. One of these conditions, in paragraph (a), is that the agreement must be in a prescribed form containing all

the prescribed terms. The prescribed terms are the amount of the credit or the credit limit, rate of interest (in some cases),

how the borrower is to discharge his obligations, and any power the creditor may have to vary what is payable: Consumer

Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983, Schedule 6. The consequence of improper execution is that the agreement is not

enforceable against the debtor save by an order of the court: section 65(1). Section 127(1) provides what is to happen on an

application for an enforcement order under section 65. The court "shall dismiss" the application if, but only if, the court

considers it just to do so having regard to the prejudice caused to any person by the contravention in question and the degree

of culpability for it. The court may reduce the amount payable by the debtor so as to compensate him for prejudice suffered as a result of the contravention, or impose conditions, or suspend the operation of any term of the order or make consequential changes in the agreement or security.

 

29 The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is

where section 61(1)(a),

[2004] 1 AC 816 Page 834

regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court "shall not make" an enforcement order unless a

document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127

(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make

an enforcement order. The second type of case concerns failure to comply with the duty to supply a copy of an executed or

unexecuted agreement pursuant to sections 62 and 63, or failure to comply with the duty to give notice of cancellation rights

in accordance with section 64(1). Here again, subject to one exception regarding sections 62 and 63, section 127(4) precludes

the court from making an enforcement order.

30 These restrictions on enforcement of a regulated agreement cannot be sidestepped by recourse to a pledge or other form of

security furnished in support of the debtor's obligations under the agreement. The security is not enforceable to a greater

extent than the loan: section 113. Where an application for an enforcement order is dismissed, except on technical grounds

only, or the court makes a declaration under section 142 that the agreement is not enforceable, any security provided in

relation to a regulated agreement "shall be treated as never having effect": section 106(a). Property lodged with the creditor

by way of security has to be returned by him "forthwith".

 

XXXXXXXXXXX

You have a choice now.....Don't pay..Go to court..have it declared unenforceable

OR reclaim the ppi / accident plan and the charges with interest from 2007...which should be a hefty payout even with the outstanding ammount taken out..debt cleared

  • Confused 1

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Wow thanks for that :)

 

I think we'd rather try and claim back the ppi/accident plan/charges and interest and see where that gets us. I don't really like the idea of going to court, and neither does my husband!

 

I have an SAR request ready to be sent off tomorrow, is this the best approach? I am sorry for all the questions but since this website has been changed around I haven't been able to readily find guides of what to do.

 

If they make us an offer which doesn't cover the remainder of the loan, can we use the CCA as a bargaining tool at that point for a full and final settlement? I appreciate it is probably best to see how things play out but I would like to have an idea of what to do!

 

Really appreciate the help :thumb:

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The abouve quote was from lord nichols in the wilson/first county case in the supreme court.

The option you have chosen is the one I would have gone for......IT WILL take time but it will be worth it in the end.

Act now...and good luck

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I realise it may take some time, but we are happy in the knowledge that ultimately the debt will be substantially reduced, and may even be settled, much quicker than it would do otherwise.

 

Really appreciate the support! I'll keep this thread updated with my progress.

 

For now though we play the waiting game - SAR sent today.

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A few questions:

 

1. The DCA are hassling us at the moment. I have sent them a letter demanding proof they can collect the amount, otherwise I will not deal with them. As the agreement is unenforceable, how should I be dealing with them?

 

2. the amount they are asking for is different to the amount Welcome have stated, I have told them this. What do I do about that?

 

3. I sent an SAR to Welcome, they have sent some stuff but not everything I requested. Do I let them know or wait until the time is up and then let them know?

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Wow I've just found something interesting. The credit agreement my husband signed has the PPI and Accident plan boxes pre ticked (they are computer ticks, only noticed this after looking closely...) and his signature looks different to the box above.

 

In the SAR stuff they sent, was a comments sheet to do with the credit agreement - which gives the go ahead or not to release the money - they have ticked the box that says 'Insurance box not signed', and then authorised the release of the money anyway. They have just sent proof that the PPI and accident plan was never authorised! It looks like they have taken the liberty of filling in the insurance tick boxes and signature box themselves. I'll post a copy of the comments sheet in a while.

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work out what % of the total cash price was PPI [1441.54]

then that % of the monthly payment was what you paid each month for the PPI.

then for EVERY payment fron EACH Date it was paid

hit them with 8% int

to the date of your claim

using the above calc

 

rest = 12

 

days 360

 

std calc as with any other agreement from welcome .

 

just look at other threads of welcome & PPI in the welcome or PPI forums

 

dx

 

 

 

http://www.egalegal.com/compoundWindow.html


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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thanks dx, I did wonder if it was something like that but couldn't find any confirmation, and wasn't sure if they did something weird like pay off the PPI before the loan...

 

Ok I can work it out now, thanks again :)

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As they havn't sent ALL info requested send a letter to welcome putting account in dispute.

Ignore DCA while welcome are dealing with the claim.

Total and claim all charges as DX has said plus the ppi etc

 

HOLD this back as your ace...file it away nice and safe

""They have just sent proof that the PPI and accident plan was never authorised! It looks like they have taken the liberty of filling in the insurance tick boxes and signature box themselves."":whoo::cheer2::whoo:

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:whoo::clap2:

I am just writing a letter about PPI and charges, I have worked out the interest on the PPI etc, can I claim interest on charges too?

 

Is it ok to ask in one letter?

 

thanks in advance :-)

ETA:

 

I sent welcome a letter this letter to request the additional stuff they didn't send (letter attached). They replied today (they still have until tuesday):

 

"I write to confirm that the information requested was issued to the above address by recorded delivery on 26th January 2011.

 

 

I can also confirm that we have issued all correspondence that we hold on account nos xxxxx.

 

In your recent letter you have requested further information such as transcripts and insurance details. Unfortunately we do not hold this information, and so cannot send any additional documents to you."

 

Are they just being difficult? I have asked for details of which branches dealt with the account amongst other things, and they have provided no evidence of correspondence with a DCA, when obviously there must be something!

 

Do I put the account in dispute now? Can I add this into the PPI/charges letter, or should it be separate? Does the account in dispute letter have to be a letter before action, or can it just be a dispute letter?

 

 

2011-02-18 Welcome SAR2.pdf

Edited by Ace of Spades
additional question

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no.

 

two sep claims.

 

now please slow down

 

you need to get this right

else it'll make you look silly.

 

READ some other threads here and in the PPI forum

ABOUT WHAT TO DO.

 

you dont add any int to the PPI other than 8% stat int.

 

so what have you worked out as you portion of your monthly payment THAT YOUR ACTUALLY paid ...was PPI?

 

to that you add 8% stat fromEACH payment date to the date of your claim [make a spreadsheet get it checked]

 

as for charges YOU CAN add the int rat quoted on your agreement, use the same process as the PPI but use THEIR int rate NOT the 8%.

 

IF AND WHEN it goes to the FOS THEN you can add the 8% to to each unlawful fee but only then.

 

 

get everything checked before you do anything

dx

  • Confused 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Oh I just edited my post above and you'd replied in that time :roll:

 

OK let's clear this up.

 

I have worked out the proportion of each payment made that went towards PPI (441/1441) then I calculated the 8% interest from the date of payment using that calculator you linked to. ( I put it in a spreadsheet already).

 

I haven't done anything with the charges yet as I wasn't sure what interest rate to use. Is it the APR or rate of interest per annum? or is there another one?!

 

I assure you I have read lots of posts about PPI, I know it seems like I haven't, I just keep getting myself very confused, sorry! :sad: I wasn't sure, which is why I asked, and I'll definitely get someone to check it all out, I really don't want to get this wrong!

 

thanks dx, you're a real help :-)

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no bother thats great

charges..hit them with the highest of the two!

 

i doubt they'll cough so the fos wil check everything anyhow

they might do

but i bet they wont.

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Here's the letter I have written, what do you think? I am hoping to send this tomorrow so any advice this evening would be great, if not it can be sent in the next few days. I have also attached the calculations of the amount to be refunded, I'd be grateful for a check of those too. I used the calculator linked above just as dx instructed.

 

 

 

Welcome Financial Services Limited

Complaints Centre

Mere Way

Ruddington Fields Business Prk

Ruddington

Nottingham

NG11 6NZ

 

 

1st March 2011

 

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Ref:

 

I took out a £1000 loan on 31st December 2007 and also bought a payment protection policy and accident plan which would cost me an extra £441.54 over the life of the loan. The total amount of the premiums plus interest is £642.45.

 

I now realise following OFT and FSA investigations, that you mis-sold me this insurance policy, which I did not want and did not need. I believe I signed up for the insurance under economic duress and that your actions were unconscionable.

 

I request cancellation of the policies with immediate effect, as well as a refund of all premiums paid to the policies, plus any additional penalties charged to me because of the insurances, under the accepted principle of mutuality and reciprocity. I would also like to claim statutory compensation in view of the fact that I have been deprived of the use of this money (I have enclosed a spreadsheet showing the amounts to be refunded).

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I was pressured into buying this policy from you; it was implied to me that my loan application would be unsuccessful if I did not purchase the insurances. As my credit rating was not great, I needed to do everything in my power to increase my chances of a successful loan application.

 

I was not asked if I had any pre-existing medical conditions; it was not explained to me that there were certain exclusions within the policy that could affect you me or that I could purchase payment protection insurance elsewhere and the terms & conditions of the small print were not fully explained to me.

 

I believe you manifestly failed in your fiduciary responsibilities, your duty of care.

 

In January 2009 I was made redundant and contacted you to claim on the insurance. However the insurance only covered me if I was unemployed for more than 30 days, and I had to keep making payments in the interim. As I was employed again within a couple of weeks the payment protection insurance proved useless to me and by the time I was back in work I had already missed a payment. Due to the type of work I do (I am a roofer) and my reputation in the industry throughout the local area, I have never been out of work for more than three weeks throughout my entire working life.

 

The credit agreement I signed did not give financial details of these insurance policies separately from the loan details, therefore it wasn’t clear at the time as to the actual cost of these policies. I recently requested from you, under the Data Protection Act 1998, information relating to these policies such as the contract, terms and conditions (including financial terms), interest payable, the policy documents, details of the insurer/underwriter, details of any commission/payments to or from a third party in relation to the policies. I was not provided with any information or documents relating to these insurance policies and was told you “Unfortunately we do not hold this information, and so cannot send any additional documents to you." This certainly raises questions as to whether or not these policies have ever existed.

 

Your concealment of the act of mis-selling has prevented me from asserting my right until now. I believe that there are strong grounds for action against you under common law, statute and consumer regulations. I am requesting a full refund of all my insurance payments, plus interest, which total to date £465.98. Please note I will continue to add statutory interest until this matter is settled.

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

If I do not receive a favourable response from you I will pursue this claim through the Financial Ombudsman.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

Edited by dx100uk
att removed as shows pers info

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Could someone please check my letter and ppi calculations :) I'd like to get this going asap!

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the letter you posted had pers info showing and cant see a SOC

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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oops I must have uploaded the wrong file, it's been up here for over a week!

 

thanks for the catch. Correct file uploaded now, how does it look?

 

thanks,

 

Ace

 

welcome PPI calc.pdf

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