Debt over 15 years old; OC says they don't need to supply a CCA?

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi all,

 

I have a credit card that I owe £10k to and cannot make any payments to at the moment. I have sent I/E forms and every time they come back and ignore my proportional offer and demand more than anyone else.

 

I have no money at the moment (a long moment) and am not paying anyone. Last payment was May 2010 I think.

 

I asked this credit card company for the CCA and they sent current terms and a statement and a letter attached saying they don't need to supply a CCA as it was before 1985.

 

They haven't written since July. Calm before the storm, or are they stumped?

 

I haven't sent a dispute letter yet as I don't know whether I have got a case or not.

 

 

Any suggestions please?

 

many thanks,

 

RR

NatWest Mastercard - anon - 15-07-10.pdf

[postggj]

Was the agreement sent by natwest or a dca (trident for example)

[postggj]

Was the request for the agreement a formal request under s77 to s79 of the cca 1974

[coledog]

God, I hate NatWest! I don't know about the legal claptrap, someone else will have to look at that but it looks very suspicious to me.

 

If they were unable to supply an agreement, they should have returned your £1 or accepted it as a fee - they should not have applied it to your account.

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi,

Thanks for the quick response.

 

All communications have been with Natwest rather than a DCA.

 

My request was as follows:

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

Based on a CAG template.

 

RR

[Rocky Roadster]

Should have been section 78 I suppose. Sent this letter in June when I was just getting into the fight.

 

Hope that won't affect my position.

 

RR

[Bazooka Boo]

Just a passing observation which would make me extremely suspicious, they clearly state that ;

So in doing so, they will have restarted the limitation period.

The £1 stat fee is for them to supply the agreement, therfore they have stated that they cannot do so due to the age of the account, so should return the stat fee ASAP and not ally it to the 'alleged' account. Ruddy chancers....!!!!

[huggys boss]

Just a passing observation which would make me extremely suspicious, they clearly state that ;

So in doing so, they will have restarted the limitation period.

The £1 stat fee is for them to supply the agreement, therfore they have stated that they cannot do so due to the age of the account, so should return the stat fee ASAP and not ally it to the 'alleged' account. Ruddy chancers....!!!!

 

My 1st observation. What can Rocky do to rectify this???? Anybody know????

[Jasper1965]

Consumer Credit Act 1974 (c. 39)

 

SCHEDULE 3 Transitional and Commencement Provisions

 

Duty to give information

17. — (1) Sections 77 to 80 come into operation on [F3 19th May 1985].

 

(2) Sections 77 to 79 apply to an agreement made before [F3 19th May 1985]where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement if made on that day.Annotations:

 

 

Although they are correct in stating 19th May 1985 to be the day that secs 77-80 come into force, they accidentally omit the rather pertinent 2nd part of section 17 (Schedule 3) ie. :

(2) Sections 77 to 79 apply to an agreement made before 19th May 1985 where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement if made on that day.

 

I'm guessing your a/c would have been a regulated agreement if "made on that day"......

 

Now the current terms thing deals with instances whereby:

 

(Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983)

 

9

Any copy of an executed agreement made before 19th May 1985 or of a security instrument relating to security provided before that date which is given to the debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act on or after that date may

comprise an easily legible statement of the current terms of the agreement or security as the case may be insofar as they are known to the creditor or owner where, due to an accident or some other cause beyond his control, the creditor or owner does not have in his possession the executed agreement or security instrument or any copy thereof.

 

 

So maybe you should be asking the OC exactly what accident has befallen the original, remembering that a statement made by the creditor under sec 78 is deemed binding.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Jasper1965

[coledog]

RR

 

You must reply to them and say: Re your letter... I do not accept the enclosed as a true copy of the credit agreement requested. As you have failed to supply a copy of an agreement the 'account is in dispute' see the 'Account in Dispute letter' and therefore tell them that they must return your £1 payment as this was provided for the sole purpose of supplying an agreement and no other reason. They must also inform you in writing that they don't have a copy of the agreement.

 

Add - Although you are correct in stating 19th May 1985 to be the day that secs 77-80 Consumer Credit Act 1974 (add correct ref from letter) come into force, I would like to refer you to the 2nd part of section 17 (Schedule 3) ie. :

(2) Sections 77 to 79 apply to an agreement made before 19th May 1985 where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement if made on that day.

Also I would like to draw your attention to regulation 9 of the Copy regulations which states.

Any copy of an executed agreement made before 19th May 1985 or of a security instrument relating to security provided before that date which is given to the debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act on or after that date may comprise an easily legible statement of the current terms of the agreement or security as the case may be insofar as they are known to the creditor or owner where, due to an accident or some other cause beyond his control, the creditor or owner does not have in his possession the executed agreement or security instrument or any copy thereof.

Please can you inform me by which means my original agreement was lost.

 

 

 

 

[Rocky Roadster]

So basically, the agreement should be covered by the act and they are lying by omission, and trying to keep the agreement going by crediting my account with the £1 fee.

 

I'm getting cross. Time for a dispute letter perhaps.

 

Fantastic link Jasper. That helps a lot. As you say, they have deliberately missed out the pertinent bit.

 

The application of the £1 fee only restarts the limitation period by 1 month, so perhaps I should hold that for future ammunition.

 

As I haven't heard from them since July, should I ignore them for now, or write to them and ask "what accident" as you suggest. If they make one up I could send them a SAR which would be interesting.

 

Thanks,

 

RR

[rebel11]

Hi Rocky

 

The other thing to bear in mind is if the Agreement has been 'varied' i.e. that the interest rate has increased, then they need to provide a copy of the original agreement with the latest terms and conditions. Carey v HSBC (2009).

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi,

All they have sent is the letter, copy statement from June, a letter saying "here's your replacement card" (undated) and a standard credit card agreement printout. No original agreement.

 

RR

 

 

 

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