Debt in UK live in Spain please please help

[KellyMaria]

Oh was just wondering why did they want my signature, why didnt they just send the CCA ???

[cerberusalert]

s it ok to send from Spain

Yes.

Oh was just wondering why did they want my signature, why didnt they just send the CCA ???

It has been alleged that certain unscrupulous people have reconstructed documents with software such as Photoshop & lifted signatures.

[ayomi]

Hi KellyMaria

 

Sorry, but have been away. Have gone back over your posts and the replies and all seems to be going well. From what you have added recently you may want to look at the OFT's guide to Debt collection as it is clear that there are numerous breaches in your case. It will give you some more ammo for later.

 

OFT Debt Collection Practices.pdf

 

Regards

Edited October 14, 2010 by ayomi

[KellyMaria]

Thank you Ayomi and Cerberusalert, I have just received this morning my letter that I sent to AIC titled Account in Dispute, along with my postal order and the envelope, it did not have any covering letter, the only thing they wrote was on the envelope saying Dispute and send back to dtr.

Do you know why they have sent it back, does this mean they have handed the debt back to Natwest, what will happen now, I sent the letter to Natwest yesterday in response to them asking for my signature, do I just wait for them to send the CCA.

Thank you again and when this is over I will save some money to donate to you as you are helping so many people who without you guys would have given up and gone under.

[cerberusalert]

AIC will have dropped it like a hot potato and sent it back to Natwest. All you have to do is wait for the bank's response to your request.

[KellyMaria]

Hi Ayomi, Just looked at the OFT, below are a few which have been done to me.

 

1. taking or threatening to take court action in the wrong jurisdiction, for

example, taking action against a Scottish debtor in an English court unless

legally justified.

 

2.pressurising debtors to sell property, to raise funds by further

borrowing or to extend their borrowing

 

3. using more than one debt collection business at the same time

resulting in repetitive and/or frequent contact by different parties

 

4. not informing the debtor when their case has been passed on to a

different debt collector

 

5. pressurising debtors to pay in full, in unreasonably large instalments,

or to increase payments when they are unable to do so

[cerberusalert]

AIC have quite a reputation for strongarm and bullyboy tactics. Google 'AIC' and it should throw up a couple of sites discussing them.

[ayomi]

Just let them carry on hanging themselves. You just need to keep note of everything that you are sending, receiving and identifying as many incorrect procedures committed by them as you can. Then should they contiue to pursue the matter a formal letter to the OFT may not go a miss, but that's too far ahead yet, lets just wait for Natwest to respond to the CCA, if they do!

 

I thought you may find it of use, hence why I posted it. I Have been and am going through again exactly the same as you at the moment, so you are not alone.

[KellyMaria]

Thanks Ayomi, I do have proof of quite a few things they have done wrong, especially getting letters dated almost the same date from 2 different debt collectors. I do not feel so alone now I have you guys to help me, I cant thank you enough. I will keep you updatted if and when I get a response from Natwest.

[KellyMaria]

Hi Guys, I have received a letter from Natwest in response to the letter I sent saying I didnt have to sign the letter requesting the CCA, bleow is what they have said.

 

We would like to advise you the the bank is obliged to follow guidelines set out by the Data Protection Act 1998. One principle of the above act is that any data held is secure, by disclosing any information to you without being confident that you are the account holder, the bank would be in breach of the Act.

In order for us to action your request we require you to sign your letter.

 

It seems that Natwest have taken back the debt as all correspondence is from them now. What should I do, just to let you know when they gave me the Credit Zone Agreement I was not married, the name they have now is my married surmane although I have since seperated.

Thank you again

[cerberusalert]

There is nothing under CCA 1974 which makes a requirement for you to produce a signature. According to ICO guidelines if they have previously been in contact with you that is sufficient evidence that you are who you say you are. I'd send the 'In Dispute' letter to them; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?436-Failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale.

[KellyMaria]

Shall I add to the letter what you said ????.......There is nothing under CCA 1974 which makes a requirement for you to produce a

signature

. According to ICO guidelines if they have previously been in contact with you that is sufficient evidence

[cerberusalert]

Dear Sir,

 

You have stipulated that you require proof of my identity/signature before you comply with my CCA request, may I bring the following to your attention;

Data Protection Act Good Practice Notes:

 

2. Do you have enough information to be sure of the requester’s identity?

Often you will have no reason to doubt a person’s identity. For example, if a person with whom you have regular contact sends a letter from their known address it may be safe to assume that they are who they say they are.

 

Suffice to say that if the Information Commissioners Office are satisfied that if you have previously corresponded with me at this address then it is reasonable that I am the person I say I am, therefore there is no leglislation nor guidelines that you can hide behind in an attempt to avoid fullfilling my legal request.

 

If you still fail to comply to my legal request, I will have no other option than to complain to the Information Commissioners Office & if my complaint is upheld you will be liable to a fine.

 

Yours,

Print name do not sign.

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/practical_application/checklist_for_handling_requests_for_personal_information.pdf

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8861&d=1242456802

[KellyMaria]

Hi, I am quite shocked as I received today the below letter from AIC

 

Final Notice

You are advised that AIC are preparing the above account for transfer to our legal representatives in your country. The additional costs involved in this process will increase the above outstanding balance.

In order to prevent this, you need to contact us on the above telephone number immediately (which was in bold)

I cant understand this as I requested the CCA from them, they then passed it to Natwest who keep asking for signatures etc and now AIC have sent the above.

Please advise me what to do, can they do this without first providing me with the CCA, what will happen in Spain, I feel very worried again and upset.

[ayomi]

Don't worry about it. This is just as standard letter and means nothing. It's the last one in their box. Just make a note in your diary and ignore it. If you are still waiting your CCA and the account is in dispute then they should not have sent it or continue with any further action. Regardless as I have said before they cannot do anything in Spain without getting a European Enforcement Order, which you would just contest and that then puts it back in to the jurisdiction of the UK courts, which you are not within. Keep smiling, you are getting there.

[KellyMaria]

Hi Ayomi, thank you so much for replying, I am confused as to why AIC do not know I am still waiting for my CCA from Natwest as they say their client is Natwest on the letter, and also said it's the final Notice. Also I sent the second letter to Natwest as above when they asked for my signature on the 25th October so Natwest have my letter but still they have got AIC to send this letter instead of sending me my CCA or even asking for my signature yet again. Can Natwest ignor my letters and give my debt back to AIC, even AIC are aware I am requesting my CCA as I sent the request to them as well who sent it back saying I had to request it from Natwest. Maybe I should send a letter stating that I am waiting for Natwest to send my CCA, if you think I should do this can you help me word the letter as I am not very good at composing letters and I do not want to say the wrong thing.

Thank you again for your help, I really can't wait for this all to be over as it is so stressful and upsetting

[KellyMaria]

Just looking through my paper trail and I sent an Account in Dispute letter to AIC on the 2nd of October, can AIC ignor this too ??? I have not sent an Account in Dispute letter to Natwest, should I ???

[ayomi]

At #21 Cerberusalert posted a letter for you to send. Did you send this to Natwest? If so, this placed the account in Dispute.

 

Let me see if I have got this right.

 

You had an OD that you did not exceed.

The next thing is that you are getting letters threatning action and they offer a F&F option

You came to this site and since then you have sent a CCA request to AIC and Natwest.

This has now been over 2 weeks and still have not had response to that request, but have had request for signature.

You have sent a letter to AIC stating account in dispute.

 

If I am right then this is the next thing that you should do.

 

Send a letter to both Natwest and AIC along the lines of that you have not received a response from your CCA request and thus the account is in default as per the template suggested at post #21.

 

And add that you will not enter in to any further correspondence with them or any 3rd party until they have complied with their legal obligation.

 

I have recently sent a letter to a DCA, copied to Bank, relevant extracts below, for a similar thing and as explained earlier in this thread OD's don't fall fully within the CCA, unless they break S74, which in theory Natwest have done as did my bank. Have a read and get back to me.

 

You further state “Our client's original terms and conditions do state that they have the right to pass accounts across to third party agencies without further notice if there is a breach of contract. Also, there is no obligation under the CCA to provide a copy of a termination notice”. We have not been provided with any information in regards to these alleged breaches and we refer you back to our previous correspondence in which we informed you that **** have NOT notified us in writing, “S76 Notice” formally requesting the immediate repayment of any overdraft. If this immediate repayment had been required as a result of a breach of the T&C’s then the Notice should be under S87(1). These are LEGAL Requirements under the CCA 1974 and in accordance with the Banking Code. *** have not complied with this requirement and thus they have negated their right to any benefit under S87. Should you pursue this matter further; we will of course hold ****, to strict Proof of receipt of all required documents and notices required under the CCA and Banking Codes. We find it strange,that we receive mail from the UK on a regular basis without fault, yet this alleged correspondence has not been received; but previous correspondence from **** has arrived without issue.

I must also bring to your attention that failure to comply with Determination under section 74(1) (b) will result in **** losing its exemption under Part V of the CCA 74, pertaining to an overdraft facility, resulting in the overdraft being encompassed and governed, in full, by the CCA.

1. THE DETERMINATION

 

 

2. This Determination is made subject to the following conditions:-

 

 

(a) that the creditor shall have informed my Office in writing of his general intention to enter into agreements to which the Determination will apply;

(b) that where there is an agreement between a creditor and a debtor for the granting of credit in the form of an advance on a current account, the debtor shall be informed at the time or before the agreement is concluded:

- of the credit limit, if any,

- of the annual rate of interest and the charges applicable from the time the agreement is concluded and the conditions under which these may be amended,

of the procedure for terminating the agreement;

and this information shall be confirmed in writing.

© that where a debtor overdraws his current account with the tacit agreement of the creditor and that account remains overdrawn for more than 3 months, the creditor must inform the debtor in writing not later than 7 days after the end of that 3 month period of the annual rate of interest and charges applicable.

3. In this Determination the terms 'creditor' and 'debtor' shall have the meanings assigned to them respectively by Section 189 of [the Act]. The term 'bank' includes the Bank of England and banks within the meaning of the Bankers' Books Evidence Act 1879 as amended."

We also informed you that we disputed the account thus; whilst the account is in dispute no further recovery action maybe taken. We shall be submitting a SAR in due course, in order to obtain all documents held by you and **** Bank; as you felt unable to disclose the documents requested in our previous letter or acknowledge the fact that they had been requested.

We have explained both yours and Banks legal obligations, quoting the relevant legislation. Should you believe that you have a legal argument, please reply quoting your argument and cross reference it with the appropriate legislation/case law. Otherwise, until we receive a response from our SAR request we will not enter in to any further correspondence as this account, as previously stated is in DISPUTE.

At the end of the day they have failed to comply with a CCA request, tried to stall by asking for signature, causing confussion by both bank and DCA corresponding at same time, failed to withdraw OD facility correctly, failed to give notice of termination allowing 14 days to repay or other agreement, did they send notices every 3 months whilst OD? NO oh another breach then,stating that they will take legal action in the UK when they can't, the list goes on. They are grasping at straws. LET THEM STEW.

[ayomi]

You may also want to add that should they continue to harrass a Spanish Resident that you will report to your local court and submit a "Denuncio" for harrassment against them.

[KellyMaria]

Hi Ayomi,

 

I sent the Account in Dispute (#21) letter only to AIC, so as they have got this letter should they not send any threatening letters to me??

 

Shall I send the Account in Dispute letter to Natwest now or wait for a reply to my last letter to them sent on the 25th October (see last letter that Cerb told me to send re signature)

 

Also should I send a letter to AIC saying the following and enclosing the Account in Dispute letter that I sent on the 2nd October to them.

 

Dear Mr Iqbal,

I have still not received a response from my CCA request which Natwest have failed to send me within the 12 working days required by law, thus the account is now in default

May I remind you that by sending me a Final Notice, threatening to add charges and passing the account to a third party is unlawful, please see below.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interst or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

If you continue to harrass a Spanish Resident I will report you to my local court and submit a "Denuncio" for harrassment against you. I have a complete paper trail which proves many laws and guidelines you and Natwest have broken.

I will not enter in to any further correspondence with you or any 3rd party until Natwest have complied with their legal obligation.

 

Yours Faithfully

[ayomi]

Hi Kelly Maria

 

In theory if you sent the letter #21 to AIC and they are only acting for Natwest, then they should have passed the letter to Natwest, which is probabley why Natwest then sent a letter to you asking for a signature. This is just a delaying technique and really they should have just turned around and said OD's are not covered by S77/78 of the CCA and a signed agreement is not req'd, which is correct as long as they comply with determination. BUT the rest of the CCA does over OD's.

 

The letter that you sent to Natwest telling them to poke their signature, does not give them any extra time. They are in breach of a CCA request regardless and thus are in default. AIC are not suppose to send any further correspondence to you until NATWEST comply with the CCA and considering AIC were served with the request, you can only assume that they believe NATWEST have responded, as it has been so long since the request was submitted. But then they are not suppose to presume and are required to take instructions from their client and not act on their own.

 

Yes I would send the letter to AIC saying just that: the account is not only in dispute but now default as Natwest have not responded within the time limit prescribed by law. I would also copy it to Natwest stating that they should instruct their DCA accordingly and that both are in breach of Law and OFT's guidelines of Debt collection. They can't argue then that 1 got it but the other didn't as you are now telling them both to get lost until they comply, so tell them both.

 

 

The Spanish Resident part, I would word it like this:

 

" If you continue in your course of action, which is clearly in breach of UK legislation and the OFT's Guidelines, I will have no other option than to report your conduct, which ammounts to "harrassment" to my local court by submitting a "Denuncio". You may also wish to take note that I have and contiunue to maintain a contemperanous record of events and will hold you to "strict proof" in any legal proceedings that either you or I may initiate.

 

Then finish it off as you have.

Edited November 14, 2010 by ayomi

[KellyMaria]

Hi Ayomi,

The Account in Dispute letter I sent to AIC, they returned to me with no covering letter, the only thing they wrote was on the envelope that contained the letter I sent to them (not sure why they sent the envelope back to me) saying "send back to dtr" and in another colour ink "Dispute"

Below are the 2 letters, can you read through and let me know if they are ok and I will send them tomorrow. Dear Sirs,

 

RE Account NO xxxxxxx

Please find enclosed a copy of a letter sent to AIC debt collectors in response to their Final Notice which they sent to me on the 8th November. Please can you Instruct your DCA accordingly and to make you aware that you are both in breach of the Law and OFT's guidelines of debt collection.

Yours Faithfully

Dear Mr

I have still not received a response from my CCA request, the account is not only in dispute but now in default as Natwest have not responded within the time limit prescribed by law

May I remind you that by sending me a Final Notice, threatening to add charges and passing the account to a third party is unlawful, please see below.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interst or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

If you continue in your course of action, which is clearly in breach of UK legislation and the OFT's Guidelines, I will have no other option than to report your conduct, which amounts to "harassment" to my local court by submitting a "Denuncio". You may also wish to take note that I have and continue to maintain a contemporaneous record of events and will hold you to "strict proof" in any legal proceedings that either you or I may initiate.

I will not enter in to any further correspondence with you or any 3rd party until Natwest have complied with their legal obligation.

 

Yours Faithfully

[ayomi]

Your Letter that AIC returned, which was a CCA request, must have been submitted by them to Natwest otherwise why would Natwest write asking for your signature?

 

Send this letter to AIC:

 

Dear *******

 

Account No: ***********

 

I must inform you that, as of writing, Natwest have failed to comply with the CCA Request that was submitted to you on the *****, which you were under a leagal obligation to forward to them if you are not the owner of the alleged debt. As they have not complied with the request within the staturatory time limit not only is the account in dispute but now also in default.

 

As such:

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interst or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

Therefore your recent letter dated *** entitled "Final Notice", threatening to add charges and passing the account to a third party is unlawful.

 

If you continue in your course of action, which is clearly in breach of UK legislation and the OFT's Guidelines, I will have no other option than to report your conduct, which ammounts to "harrassment" to my local court by submitting a "Denuncio". You may also wish to take note that I have and contiunue to maintain a contemperanous record of events and will hold you to "strict proof" in any legal proceedings that either you or I may initiate.

 

Finally I would also like to state that I will not enter in to any further correspondence with you or any 3rd party until Natwest have complied with their legal obligation.

 

Yours faithfully

 

ZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

 

And this one to Natwest:

 

 

 

Dear *******

 

Account No: ***********

 

I must inform you that, as of writing, you have failed to comply with my CCA Request. As you have not complied with the request within the staturatory time limit not only is the account in dispute but now also in default.

 

As such:

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interst or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

Therefore the recent correspondence I received from AIC, who state they are acting on your behalf, dated *** entitled "Final Notice", threatening to add charges and passing the account to a third party is unlawful. You should instruct AIC to cease all further action until you have complied with your legal obligations.

 

 

If you continue in your course of action, which is clearly in breach of UK legislation and the OFT's Guidelines, I will have no other option than to report your conduct, which ammounts to "harrassment" to my local court by submitting a "Denuncio". You may also wish to take note that I have and contiunue to maintain a contemperanous record of events and will hold you to "strict proof" in any legal proceedings that either you or I may initiate.

 

Finally I would also like to state that I will not enter in to any further correspondence with you or any 3rd party until you have complied with your legal obligation to provide me with the documents, previously requested.

 

Yours faithfully

 

ZZZZZZZZZZZ

Edited November 15, 2010 by ayomi

[KellyMaria]

Hi Ayomi, Thank you for your help I have sent them today recorded delivery and I will let you know as soon as I get a response. Do you have any idea what they will do now, only asking to stop me worrying so much.

p,s I sent a request for my CCA to AIC and Natwest so I know that they both received it, then I sent a Account in dispute letter only to AIC as they did not reply, they then sent it back with no covering letter. Natwest have responded by sending 2 letters asking for my signature.

[KellyMaria]

I have just re read my complete thread and the only thing I have not done is send a Account in Dispute letter to Natwest, should I do this ??? as I said above I sent the Account in Dispute letter to AIC which they just returned to me.