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Debt in UK live in Spain please please help


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Hi I live in Spain and have done so for the past 5 years, 3 years ago my husband left me and disapeared and I had to bring up 4 children alone what was worse I lost my job. So with no money I had to keep taking money from my Natwest account to feed the children and pay rent, I had an agreed credit zone with Natwest for 10500 pounds. I own now 10489 pounds so did not break my credit agreenment with them but did write them a letter to ask them to freeze interest and agree a monthly amount, they sent it to Triton who a spoke to and tried to come to an agreement, they said they would get back to me but never did even after I called 4 times and was promised a call back, I even sent a letter by fax still no response. I then received a letter from Green and Co which I responded to recorded delivery saying that I had tried to cometo an agreement with Triton but they never got back to me, I also stated I wanted a copy of the original Credit agreement so I would be prepared if they tool me to court. Well I did not get a response from them either, the next thing I got a call from AIC Glasgow treatening me and being really nasty, I ending up sobbing down the phone to them saying I could not pay back this money in 2 weeks and they would not accept monthly payments. They said they would accept half the amount.

Can anyone help me and advise me, I asked Green & Co on the 8th Sept to send me the required original documents which are capable of being enforced by a court, by recorded delivery (the equivilent in Spain) but no reply from them, they did not even inform me that they were sending my debt to AIC.

Please anyone help me I am so alone out hear and really scared

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Are you dealing with NATWEST in the UK, Spain or Gibraltar?

 

Is this an overdraft facility or credit card?

 

If it's NATWEST UK are they aware that you now live in Spain and have you any proof that they are aware of that fact.

 

Don't despair,nothing is going to happen overnight, if at all.

 

First things first. Start a diary and note every letter and call you recieve as well as those that you send.

 

Make a chronological time line detailing what has happened so far as best as you can.

 

Then go back to Natwest. Submit a CCA request (templates available on this and many other sites) enclosing the £1 fee (use a postal order or someone else to sign a cheque). DO NOT SIGN THE REQUEST print your name. DO NOT SIGN ANY LETTERS TO A CREDITOR. Recorded Delivery (Aviso De Recibo)

 

Do not acknowledge any liability at this time and do not talk to them on the phone. Inform them at the time of the CCA request that all correspondence should be in writing so that there is an accurate record.

 

NATWEST cannot take you to court if you are living out of the UK and they are aware of that fact, that the money owed is regulated by the CCA and that you have no intersets in the UK.

 

They have 12 days to respond to your request. But wait a little longer. Unless you have recieved official notification that your debt has been transferred to a 3rd party deal only with NATWEST.

 

I am in Spain and have similar problems and so far 2 years later although still aware that I owe money I have been left alone. (for the moment)

 

Don't let it get you down its a bit like cat and mouse. You are the mouse being chased around all over but 99% of the time the mouse gets away. Its just knowing how and here as well as other sites there is a wealth of knowledge and help.

 

Smile

All advice is given through experience and research but does not substitute qualified and professional legal advice. Any opinions given is mine alone and is just that OPINION. If any reference to law is made I cannot guarantee that it has not been appealed or case law has been made since.

 

Live life to the full as you only get one chance!

 

8-)

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Thank you so much for your reply, I have sent the below letter recorded delivery and will now not talk to them on the phone. The money was an agreed overdraft which was agreed I think over the phone 10 years ago. I am dealing with Natwest in the UK (well I was until they passed it on to AIC, they didnt even tell me) and they do know I live in Spain. Can you tell me if the letter is ok and I have done the right thing and should I do anything else. Thank you again for your time it means alot to me.

 

You have contacted me regarding an amount which you claim is owed by myself.

 

I would point out that I have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to AIC.

 

I am familiar with the Office of FairTrading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

 

I would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive/and or unfair methods.

 

Furthermore ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

 

I would ask that no further contact be made concerning the above account unless you can provide evidence as to my liability for the debt in question.

 

With reference to the amount you claim I owe I request that you send me a true copy of this credit agreement before I will correspond further on this matter.

 

This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request.

 

Your obligation also extends to providing me with a statement of account. I understand that a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days from the date of this letter.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

 

Also, since you are a Debt Collection Agency, I would also ask that you supply a signed true copy of the executed deed of assignment for the above referenced agreement. This is an obligation, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

For the sake of clarity, may I also draw your attention to the following:

Consumer Credit Act 1974 s.175

Where under this Act a person is deemed to receive a notice or payment as agent of the creditor or owner under the regulated agreement, he shall be deemed to be under a contractual duty to the creditor or owner to transmit the notice, or remit the payment, to him forthwith.

 

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

In summary, I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DEBT TO YOU AND THEREFORE REQUIRE YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS BY PROVIDING THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTATION BEFORE I CORRESPOND FURTHER :

 

1. True copy of original signed executed credit agreement

2. FULL Statement of account

3. Copy of the executed deed of assignment from the original creditor

4. A fair processing notice.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

Further to the above, please ensure that any contact by yourselves is made in writing only to the address you have on file. Telephone calls will not be accepted and viewed as harassment.

I look forward to hearing from you within the statutory time limit.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

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Its fine but did you enclose a £1 order/cheque as they will only say that they did not receive payment and that will delay matters.

 

Now, whilst you wait check out this and other sites for loads of information. Make notes on breaches of CCA so far eg. No notice of assignment, no letter of termination and Default notices? etc.

 

If the overdraft facility was taken out over 10 years ago then more than likely they have no signed agreement and if they did it is more than likely unenforceable, just have to wait.

 

Don't worry about any UK court threats as you are not in the UK and if they know that and you can prove that they know it, if they obtained any order/CCJ you can contest it later as it would be invalid.

 

Spain, as far as I am aware, will not touch this. Even if a European Order for Payment came your way just contest it and it will have to revert to a full hearing in the country it was issued (normally the UK) which of course as non-domicil you are not within the jurisdiction so that will put a stop to it. If it was Spain that they applied for a EOP the courts would be unable to deal with the matter as it would relate to the CCA which is governed by UK law and thus out of the Spanish jurisdiction.

 

Have a read of this as well which will help put your mind at rest.

 

Press releases 2010 -

 

OFT warns credit firms against legal action outside debtors' home jurisdiction

 

 

65/10 17 June 2010

The OFT has imposed requirements on a major national retail finance company and issued a warning to the credit industry that taking court action against consumers outside their home jurisdiction is unacceptable.

An OFT investigation into Creation Consumer Finance Ltd, which provides point of sale finance facilities through major retailers, home improvement suppliers and motor finance dealers, revealed that a firm of solicitors acting on behalf of the company was issuing proceedings against Scottish debtors in English courts.

The OFT regards this practice as unfair because the unfamiliar law and procedure involved in a court claim in a different jurisdiction, and any associated travel costs, may deter consumers from defending such action.

The OFT is warning all consumer credit licence holders that taking action or threatening to take action against consumers in a court outside their home jurisdiction is a breach of the OFT's Debt Collection Guidance. Where there is evidence that businesses are engaging in such behaviour, the OFT will take action to ensure compliance with its guidance so that there is no repetition of the practice.

 

 

 

The requirements imposed on Creation Consumer Finance Ltd mean that the company must:

  • ensure that businesses and/or firms acting as its agent or sub-contractor in the course of any consumer credit licensable business comply with the OFT's Debt Collection Guidance
  • not issue and shall ensure that third parties acting on its behalf do not issue proceedings against a consumer in a jurisdiction other than that in which the consumer is domiciled.

Ray Watson, OFT Director for Consumer Credit, said:

'Issuing proceedings in a different jurisdiction is clearly unacceptable and lenders should take heed that the OFT will act to prevent this practice. Lenders must also be aware that they are fully responsible for the actions of third parties acting on their behalf, and must ensure those third parties do not breach our guidance.'

'Creation Consumer Finance has taken swift action to end the practice and has implemented more stringent procedures for appointing and monitoring solicitors acting on its behalf. We have imposed these requirements in order to ensure that the practice is not repeated.'

 

 

 

NOTES

  1. Creation Consumer Finance is a subsidiary of the LaSer Group, one of Europe's largest loyalty and affinity companies. LaSer is equally owned by Groupe Galeries Lafayette and Cetelem (BNP Paribas Personal Finance).
  2. The fact that requirements have been imposed on Creation Consumer Finance appears on the OFT's consumer credit register. The OFT will monitor Creation Consumer Finance's compliance with the requirements.
  3. Consumers who have evidence that consumer credit licence holders or their agents are engaging in this practice are invited to send complaints to: Enquiries, Office of Fair Trading, Fleetbank House,2-6 Salisbury Square, London EC4Y 8JX
  4. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (the Act) requires businesses that offer goods or services on credit and/or are involved in activities relating to credit or hire, such as debt collection to be licensed by the OFT.
  5. In 2003 the OFT issued the Debt Collection Guidance (updated December 2006) which sets out minimum standards for all consumer credit licence holders intending to collect their own debts or the debts of others. Failure to comply with the Guidance may call into question the fitness of a business to hold a consumer credit licence.
  6. Where the OFT is dissatisfied with any matter in connection with a business, a proposal to carry on a business or any other conduct by a licensee, associate or former associate, the OFT may impose 'requirements' on the licensed business. Requirements may require a business to do or not to do (or to cease doing) anything specified for the purposes connected with addressing the OFT's dissatisfaction, or securing that matters of the same or a similar kind do not arise. Failure to comply with a requirement can lead to a fine of up to £50,000
  7. For advice on dealing with debt, see direct.gov.uk or contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau.

So now sit and wait. Smile

All advice is given through experience and research but does not substitute qualified and professional legal advice. Any opinions given is mine alone and is just that OPINION. If any reference to law is made I cannot guarantee that it has not been appealed or case law has been made since.

 

Live life to the full as you only get one chance!

 

8-)

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Thanks so much, I do feel so much better, I was feeling so scared and really upset before, the only thing is I did not sent the £1 order/cheque shall I get someone in the UK to send it for me with a short covering letter ??? If they cannot find the CCA what happens then ????

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I have just received in the post today a letter from Triton who were the original people I was talking to saying that they may now accept my proposal of 3000 pounds for full and final settlement if I fill out form of my expenses. I did not propose this I said I may be able to borrow 3000 pounds. I am so confused as its gone from Natwest to Triton, then to Green & co, then to AIC debt collectors now back to Triton and I still think AIC. Is it because I asked Green and co for the original documents that I now hear fromTriton....please advise what to do, I really appreciate the time you have given me, thank you

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I have just received in the post today a letter from Triton who were the original people I was talking to saying that they may now accept my proposal of 3000 pounds for full and final settlement if I fill out form of my expenses. I did not propose this I said I may be able to borrow 3000 pounds. I am so confused as its gone from Natwest to Triton, then to Green & co, then to AIC debt collectors now back to Triton and I still think AIC. Is it because I asked Green and co for the original documents that I now hear fromTriton....please advise what to do, I really appreciate the time you have given me, thank you

 

You need to find out from NATWEST who is dealing with this. Send the CCA to NATWEST and copy it to Triton. Triton are in house debt collectors for RBS (Natwest) so they are the same company in theory. Do not submit an expenses breakdown as they are fishing. If you want to make a F&F payment then use a letter along these lines.

 

June 28, 2006

 

 

The Loan Company

Company House,

Church Street,

Newtown,

Kent,

R1 7HG

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: 4563210025897412

 

We write with reference to the money which you are claming on the above account.

 

We can confirm that we are unable to offer to pay the money which we owe in full. However, I can raise £775 and I want to offer this as an ex−gratia payment in full and final settlement of the account. This offer is made on the clear understanding that, if accepted, neither you nor any associate company will take any other action to enforce or pursue this debt in any way whatsoever and that we will be released for any liability.

 

We also request that, if accepted, you will make an entry on a credit reference agency file relating to the above account as "satisfied" in full.

 

Payment can be made within 2 weeks of receiving your written agreement of this offer and method of payment.

 

We look forward to receiving your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

Mr A N Other

 

Or just wait for them to respond to the CCA to see if they have an enforecable agreement because without one they don't have a chance of getting a £1 so why give them £3,000. To an extent by sending a F&F letter you are admitting liability of the debt. When a debt is getting passed around like this it's because normally they can't do much with it.

 

Regards

All advice is given through experience and research but does not substitute qualified and professional legal advice. Any opinions given is mine alone and is just that OPINION. If any reference to law is made I cannot guarantee that it has not been appealed or case law has been made since.

 

Live life to the full as you only get one chance!

 

8-)

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I really can't afford to borrow any money although I did state in a fax to Triton that I would try to borrow 3000 pounds from my family, would me saying this give them proof I have acknowledged a debt with them. The actual word were I said to Vejay I could try to borrow 3000 pounds to clear my debt with you, as my family know this debt is making me ill, I am not sure I can even borrow this but I could try, but I know I would not be able to borrow anymore than 3000 pounds..

I have sent the letter requesting the originañ credit agreement to AIC Debt Collectors but I also sent the below to Green & Co in response to their letter that they sent to me, whom I beleive are an in house team at Natwest.

Can you send me the required original documents which are capable of being enforced by a court, as I see no other option but to defend any such action,

Shall I send the request to Natwest (Triton) or would the above which was sent to Green & Co suffice.

It's strange that Tritton sent this letter on the 8th September asking me to reply within 14 days and AIC said the account was handed to them on the 13th September which would be within those 14 days.

Thank you in advance for replying, I owe you such a lot for helping me.

 

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I really can't afford to borrow any money although I did state in a fax to Triton that I would try to borrow 3000 pounds from my family, would me saying this give them proof I have acknowledged a debt with them. The actual word were I said to Vejay I could try to borrow 3000 pounds to clear my debt with you, as my family know this debt is making me ill, I am not sure I can even borrow this but I could try, but I know I would not be able to borrow anymore than 3000 pounds..

I have sent the letter requesting the originañ credit agreement to AIC Debt Collectors but I also sent the below to Green & Co in response to their letter that they sent to me, whom I beleive are an in house team at Natwest.

Can you send me the required original documents which are capable of being enforced by a court, as I see no other option but to defend any such action,

 

Shall I send the request to Natwest (Triton) or would the above which was sent to Green & Co suffice.

It's strange that Tritton sent this letter on the 8th September asking me to reply within 14 days and AIC said the account was handed to them on the 13th September which would be within those 14 days.

Thank you in advance for replying, I owe you such a lot for helping me.

 

 

As I said at the beginning of the thread if you have not received any notice of assignement then the only people you should deal with are NATWEST,the branch where the account is held should be your first point of contact, unless you have a reference number and central point of contact at their head office.

If the others (Triton, AIC and Green & Co) pursue you any further then state, as you have done before, that you do not acknowledge any account with them and that they should provide a copy of the agreement, notice of assignement etc.

As regards to the telephone call and fax we will just have to wait and see if they refer to it, or you could pay £10 and ask for a subject access request SAR, where NATWEST will have to provide everything they have on you (other than Legal Privelage).This may also turn up other things like PPI etc.

 

Any admission of ownership of the debt (Fax/Telephone call) could probabley be ruled as inadmissable if it was obtained by them when they did not have any assignment notice as in theory they were operating illegally as they had no authority to converse with you in the first place. We would need to cross that bridge later.

 

AIC are a debt collection and purchasing company so you really need to establish who has control of this matter and the only way is by sending the CCA request to Natwest, who as the original owners will comply or inform you that they no longer have it and to who they have sold it to.

 

If you can't afford to give them anything then don't borrow from someone to pay someone else as this is how we all get in to this mess.

 

Just send a CCA or SAR to NATWEST and wait their reply.

All advice is given through experience and research but does not substitute qualified and professional legal advice. Any opinions given is mine alone and is just that OPINION. If any reference to law is made I cannot guarantee that it has not been appealed or case law has been made since.

 

Live life to the full as you only get one chance!

 

8-)

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Thank you so much, I am getting so confused with the whole situation as I keep getting letters from different named companies on different dates etc.

I will now sent the CCA letter to Triton as I have no name or address at Natwest to send it to and the letter that cam this morning was from Triton that had a Natwest headed form attached to it. I won't forget the £1 order/cheque and I will keep my fingers crossed and just wait. I will let you know what happens, thank you so much again.

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PS

I did receive a DEFAULTNOTICE saying they had refered my case to their colleagues in the Credit Management Service department asking for full payment in 7 days otherwise they will take me to court, this was in June. Then I received from Green &Co A Notice of intention to commence leagal proceedings received end of August but then then next thing I got a call from AIC on the 16th Sept. Thought the above may help to figure all this out and find out what they are up to.

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The default notice is defective for starters they have to allow 14 days to remedy not 7.

 

Thank you for your reply, they definitely stated 7 days, it seems that it is a big mess on their part, nobody seems to know who has replied, what they have said or when it's been passed on and they keep saying they are going to take me to court but then I receive letters for 2 different sources not mentioning court action.

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Hi there.

 

I have a lot of experience with overdrafts and this is my take on it.

 

Forget the credit agreement request as there probably isn't one, and this is really for a loan or a credit card.

 

This overdraft falls under the consumer Credit Act 1974, and a full 14 days to rectify the default should have been given from the date of the default letter plus postage time.

 

If they have not given you 14 days to rectify the issue, and have demanded the full balance, then firstly the default notice is defective, and secondly your overdraft agreement has been unlawfully rescinded.

 

What this means is they have withdrawn improperly the facility to pay the overdraft back and are therefore in breach of the agreement themselves.

This effectively stuffs them good and proper, but whatever you do, don't let them know you know this at this stage.

 

They have to stick to the law and do things right, but they think they can do what they want and get away with it.

 

If this is what they have done, I personally would not pay them a penny.

 

This has worked for me, and in fact I wrote to the debt collector and pointed out the banks mistake with the default notice. Result? dropped it like the hottest of hot tater's.

 

Regards,

 

3tea

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Hi 3tea,

Thank you for your post, sorry for delay in post, no access to internet. The letter was from Green & Co who I think are part of Natwest, as it stated at the bottom they were employed by the royal bank of scotland. Its title was "Notice of Intention to Commence legal proceedings" the last sentence said "Should our client not receive payment or acceptable proposals within seven days it can only be assumed that you will not settle this matter on amicable and reasonable terms We are likely to be intructed to commence legal proceedings against you"

 

Also I did not break the credit agreement with Natwest as I wrote to them asking them to freeze the interest as it was such a lot and I could see no way of repaying the overdraft as the interest would swallow any monthly payment. As it stands now the amount I owe is still under the agreed overdraft amount.

 

Thanks for any help

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Hi Cerberusalert, I have just received a letter fro AIC whom I sent the request for the CCA and they have replied saying that they cannot as they are currently acting on behalf of Natwest and that I should write to Natwest requesting the CCA and they have given me an address of Natwest. They also said I should call them on receipt of their letter to prevent further recovery action being taken.

 

Do I send the request to this address with the 1 pound PO ???

Do I call them ???

 

Please help again, I really appreciate your time

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Send them this;

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Date:

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. This was signed for as delivered on the **DATE**

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE** (12+2 days after you made the initial request).

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you/your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8

 

(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'

 

(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 21 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 21 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

If you intend to send a reconstituted copy of the CCA you must declare the reason why it has been reconstituted and if the original exists and in what form (microfiche) etc.

 

Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully Print name do not sign

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Cerberusalert,

 

I sent the first letter to Triton aswell as AIC, I have since sent the second letter above to AIC. I have just had a reply from Triton saying that For Data Protection purposes we require your signature on your correspondence. They sent my letter requesting the CCA and also my postal order and a stamped addresses enevelope.

 

I have not had a response from AIC as yet, what should I do, thanks again for your help

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