Morgan Stanley/Goldfish/Cabot

[1411mac]

Hi Everyone,

 

21 months after sending a CCA request to Cabot, I have received the below documents, was wondering if anyone good give any advice on them. They appear copies of scans with an area blanked out below bank details. I stopped my token payments in Nov 09 but they have still charges interest during the time they have been looking for an agreement.

I would appreciate any advice as to my next move

Mac

 

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/ianmac_photos/Morgan%20Stanley/scan0016.jpg

 

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/ianmac_photos/Morgan%20Stanley/scan0017.jpg

 

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/ianmac_photos/Morgan%20Stanley/scan0018.jpg

[Deb T]

Cabot appear to add charges to anyone/everyones account regardless of whether or not they can, one might be forgiven for thinking they're perhaps attempting to add worth to their company.

 

Has your Morgan Stanley account been defaulted/terminated? Do you have copies of either?

 

Do Cabot own your debt (or have said they own it) If they have then you should have been sent an assignment notice?

 

As for interest being applied to your account, there has to be provision for that in the Original Credit agreement, often there is not and in which case Cabot have no right to add interest

to the account.

 

Makes me laugh when DCA's when buying a debt first of all buy the debt at much much lower that it's worth, probably around 10% of the debt and then go on to try and collect

the debts full amount at the same time as increasing the debt each and every month by way of unlawfully applying interest to the account..

[1411mac]

Hi Deb and thanks for your reply.

Ref default I have no default notice but one does show up on my credit file from when MS has the account.

I has an assignment notice from gold fish and a welcome to cabot letter in the same envelope in 2008.

As for terms and conditions all I can see are the 'financial and related particulars' which I posted on my forst post which I cant read!

Do you have any opinions of the 'agreement' at all??

Any help would be appreciated

Mac

[Deb T]

Well the 'agreement' is not an agreement but simply an application form, I cannot seem the interest rates applied or other such important requirements but your application jha scanned in somewhat dark which makes

reading it a little difficult.

[Bazooka Boo]

Is the response you had really as bad and illegible as what you have posted? This can be put to bed quicker...

[lord_tiger_putin]

As for terms and conditions all I can see are the 'financial and related particulars' which I posted on my forst post which I cant read!

 

It is hard to read but the layout seems to be a clear indication that it is missing many points. I attached the required layout for a credit card agreement that can be used to see whether it is enforceable or not.

Layout For Credit Card Agreements.doc

[1411mac]

Hi All,

 

Thanks for your helpful responses.

Yes, it definately says 'Application form' at the top, and yes the copy I have posted up is an accurate reflection of what I have received, i.e. it is almost impossible to read.

There are no terms and conditons as such apart from what is on the third page (can't read)

Also unless it has been extremely well blanked out I can't see that MS have signed it.

Would there be any template letters to back to cabot regarding these points?

Thanks

Mac

[lord_tiger_putin]

Hi All,

 

Thanks for your helpful responses.

Yes, it definately says 'Application form' at the top, and yes the copy I have posted up is an accurate reflection of what I have received, i.e. it is almost impossible to read.

There are no terms and conditons as such apart from what is on the third page (can't read)

Also unless it has been extremely well blanked out I can't see that MS have signed it.

Would there be any template letters to back to cabot regarding these points?

Thanks

Mac

 

This form do contain the correct heading that states that it is a Credit Agreement Regulated by the CCA 1974:

 

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/ianmac_photos/Morgan%20Stanley/scan0017.jpg

 

Whether the fact that it also has application on will make a difference could be doubtful but it is certainly missing some required parts, i.e RIGHT TO CANCEL, MISSING PAYMENTS which needs to be in a box of their own. The layout are wrong but it could mean that agreements like that have the required information somewhere but my experience is that they usually do not have it.

 

Is there anything about the charges?

 

The fact that it is of such a poor quality is most certainly an important fact but if it was me I would be slightly cautious about it. What you received is most probable a copy of a copy of a copy ... and should they try their luck with it, they could try to get an earlier version which could be clearer, but maybe that will be very difficult. This is something you have to let them know and that you believe that unless they come up with something much clearer, you will argue that this alone makes it un-enforceable. The fact that it took them that long to come up with this seems that it is very unlikely that they will get a better quality agreement.

 

I am not sure whether there are a template letter for this but you have to write to them and tell them that it is un-enforceable, and the fact that you cannot read it means they haven't comply with your section 77/78 request (off course they will deny that).

 

The fact that it seems that they haven’t signed it is also in breach of the information required but it seems that it doesn't count, I asked that in another thread and the response was that the courts do not care about that, but off course, it adds up with the other missing parts.

[1411mac]

Thanks Lord Tiger

 

It is possible that there is a right to cancel box above where there signatire should be but I am not 100%. I can't read anything about charges etc.

I will write to them as you suggest and tell them that this is unenforcable and that this matter is still in dispute.

 

Mac

[1411mac]

I will be sending them this letter - hope it is OK

Dear Sirs,

Reference:

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

Thank you for your recent correspondence.

1. The documents supplied are illegible. This contravenes the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557).

Regulation 2 states:

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

2. The ‘agreement’ supplied is, in fact, a copy of a pre-contractual application form.

3. The ‘agreement’ is not an executed agreement in accordance with section 61 of Consumer Credit Act 1974 namely:

61 Signing of agreement

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed

terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the

prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the

creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than

implied terms, and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for

signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

4. The full terms and conditions relating to the ‘agreement’ have not been supplied.

5. Statements of account for the period have not been supplied.

Therefore until you satisfy my requirements of my request dated , the account remains in dispute.

[1411mac]

Dear all, I have sent letter off to cabot today. Looking through my old MS paperwork I can't find any default notice however I have a letter called final demand which includes:

"You have not complied with the terms of the default notice and as a result your account has now been closed."

Does this have any relevance at all?

Mac

[Deb T]

It sounds like a default notice has been issued but one can never quite be sure unless you can obtain a copy of it? . Cabot are slimy toads, they often steam ahead without much consideration given to legal enforceable documentation which is something they seem to have very little of.

[1411mac]

I have received a reply from Cabot, and wondered if anyone can give me any advice as to my next step.

I have the following observations, I never entered into an agreement with Barclaycard or Goldfish, so how can the original agreement be countesigned by GB, in any case the 'true copy' they have sent me is not countersigned nor is the 'date of agreement' completed. The Terms & Conditoons are generic - as shown by the lines at the edges - bit like a printers proof - the last page has a figure 07/00 which I suppose is July 2000 and the date of signature of the 'application' is April 2000 also amounts on their statements are different to those on the 't&cs'.

Would anyone agree with this or have any further pointers to add. I think the reply about legibility is a bit strange??? Sorry to ramble on

Regards

mac

 

[Fred Bassett]

"Please be advised due to the age of your account copies of statements are not longer available". That's an interesting statement. How can they prove, therefore, that the balance they claim you owe is correct?

[1411mac]

That is a good point. Thanks presumably they would have to provide these if I sent them SAR?

I think the point about the legibility of the so called 'agreement' isn't right as well. If anyone can advise I would be grateful

[Bazooka Boo]

In your first post you scanned and posted up copies of what they had initially sent you purporting to be your agreement.

The fact that I could not read it and posed the question as to whether it was "as illegible to you", as it "was to me", 'would' have been enough to dispute the account, as what they had sent was illegible.

However, they have now sent documents which are legible, if they are the same as the first three attachments you posted, with a little bit extra, (T&C's) and what I deem illegible, has now been sent in a legible form then, I will remain on the sidelines for more experienced CAGgers to advise you.

[1411mac]

Thanks, Bazooka, for your response. The 'application form' they sent me originally is illegible, the t&cs they have since sent are more legible, however something doesn't liik right to me. I have not seen these T&Cs before, they appear to be a 'printers proof copy that has been coped then faxed etc, the 07/00 would indicate that was when they were produced and the 'application form' was completed prior to this date, also charges on the statements do not tally with the charges shown on these T&Cs - indeed a page that I didn't post appears to be a copver page with the printers details attached showing it is a proof??? (will post this in a bit).

Any other assistance to help me go forward with this would be appreciated.

regards

[1411mac]

Here is the page that came with the T&Cs which show that this is a proof copy by WWAV Rapp Collins North Studio.

Are they saying that the proof copy of the T&Cs they have on file is really mine?

 

[Fred Bassett]

Surely what they sent in response to your original CCA request was it? This is the relevant section of the CCA that I am referring to:

 

Section 172 states:

 

172 Statements by creditor or owner to be binding (1) A statement by a creditor or owner is binding on him if given under— section 77(1), section 78(1), section 79(1), section 97(1), section 107(1)©, section 108(1)©, or section 109(1)©.

 

As far as I can see, what they have sent you originally is now binding on them.

 

Have I misunderstood this?

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[1411mac]

Fred, Thanks for your reply. I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say, is it that - in response to my CCA section 77-78 request what they have supplied they are now bound by and they cannot, for example, send something else i.e. reconsitiuted agreement and/or t&cs??

If so do I respond to them with this or just tell them I consider the matter still in dispute, or ignore them???

regards

mac

[1411mac]

Bump anyone?

[1411mac]

Dear All,

I have received another letter and wondered if anyone could take a look to offer any advice on a response.

My observations are:

The copy sent to me is the only one they have

No explaination regarding the blanked out area

it is unreadble

it is not signed by the OC

 

I would appreciate any advice

regards

Mac

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/ianmac_photos/Scan000002.jpg

[1411mac]

Sorry to BUMP, but can anyone offer any advice??

[Fred Bassett]

This looks like a bog-standard letter - I've got one almost identical. Essentially it is Cabot trying to tell you that what is black is actually white. They are trying to blind you with science.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[1411mac]

Thanks Fred, I think that I will do the same.

The comment about the 'agreement' being the only copy held on file says a lot too!

 

Mac