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Some solicitors using Split Claims -- how does one defend

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Hi there#

 

Judging by various HFO posts it seems that a new tactic is being employed here - a tactic also much favoured by the one and only (in)famous Bryan Carter

 

(He's Mutch mentioned in "despatches" on these Forums).

 

A threat of a CCJ for the arrears / part of a debt is issued.

The DCA or their Solicitors say but you also STILL owe YYYY. I can also provide for legitigation on that too so PAY UP or else.

 

Issuing a CCJ for only Part of the claim without specifying what else is owed seems to me a TOTAL ABUSE of the legal process and surely it's actually ILLEGAL as well.

 

If XXX says you owe me money then its up to XXXX to say HOW MUCH and FOR WHAT.

 

This seems a particularly insidious way of going about Debt recovery -- it really shows there IS NO BOTTOM to the depths these people will stoop to.

 

Any decent "complaint" templates on the site regarding this practice.

 

In defending a CCJ of this type should the "split" be mentioned to the Court as well in defence.

 

Cheers

jimbo

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Surely though, if you know they have everything needed to go to court, after CCA'ing them etc, then a CCJ for a couple of hundred quid, and maybe a 5 grand debt being left completely unenforceable by law, since you cant split a debt and issue multiple CCJ's is a win situation?


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Hi there

They could possibly argue that CCJ nr ONE is for "Charges / Services" or whatever that means and CCJ nr TWO is for the actual money -- arguing that these are two separate debts and therfore should be treated as two separate entities.

 

The fact that the "Services" are associated with the first claim would appear not to matter a jot.

 

I DO hope that I am wrong on this one otherwise a whole slew of these types of claims will start emerging once these DCA's know they have another nice new shiny toy to play with.

 

Cheers

jimbo

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I don't understand how they can make a split claim, as the bit they are using to make the claim, manifests itself from the original debt. So if the debt is not enforceable, then I cannot see how they can win by doing this.

 

What precedents/law are they using to gain judgements doing this.


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Need some more help on this one as a couple of people at least have this situation.

 

I have attempted to draft a complaint letter for the CAGgers today but need more information. Some feedback is that you can pay the smaller amount and avoid a CCJ/further action and another is that you can fight the claim as it is an abuse of process.

 

I will be back tomorrow and am happy to look at it again. I am not an expert but trying to pull together the good advice available on this site.


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yep those bryan carter threads hold the info you seek

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Any links?


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sadly no

 

but if you type in bryan carter in our advanced search

 

i'm sure there are posts/threads that include split claims and how to deal with them.

 

i'll look later if ness

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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remember to include defence strategies in cases where the debt might actally be enforecable too.

 

Cheers

jimbo

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They cannot split the claim - it's unlawful.

 

See of Section 35 of the County Courts Act 1984 here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1984/cukpga_19840028_en_1

 

It's a well know trick of BC's. Usually they withdraw when you submit an AOS so your trick is to file a defence at the same time as the AOS but using separate envelopes. Then when he discontinues you can file for costs.

 

Alternatively you could pay part of the debt now & then when he comes for the rest, file for SO as an abuse of court process.

 

There is lots more info on BC in the debt forums - you are not alone!

 


Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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I have long regarded the splitting of claims as a potential winner.

 

BC has a habit of hitting initially with a small amount, ie enough to cover their own charges

they then at a later date try again for the balance of the debt, relying on the ignorance of the debtor and the inability of the courts to link accounts.

 

As foolishgirl states you then defend against the second claim as it is unlawful and destined to fail and put in a wasted costs order which is higher than the original CCJ, there are umpteen cases of this on these forums

 

the effective end result is that BC have removed a debt for you for a small percentage of its actual value and you have a potential windfall from the costs order and if you paid off the initial CCJ within 30 days it doesn't even show on your credit record,

 

Debt gone, no CCJ and maybe a nice night in/out courtesy of BC


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We have 2, possibly more, posters who have received POCs with split claims from Turnbull Rutherford solicitors

They have been advised to Acknowledge on line (done) and then wait 14 days before filing a defence as TR/OC have been asked for further information.

It has been suggested that they write letters of complaint to the issuing court and the SRA, Ministry of Justice etc straight away – a suggested letter is below.

Is this the correct approach?

Do they then wait to see if the claim is discontinued or defend the claim?

Quote ‘Alternatively you could pay part of the debt now & then when he comes for the rest, file for SO as an abuse of court process’

If they wish to pay the smaller amount when is the best time to do this and how do they file for SO?:

Suggested letter is:

{Claim Reference}

{Particulars of Claim:}

With reference to this claim, I am concerned that there will be an unspecified balance left on the agreement should a CCJ be issued on it and understand that this is an abuse of the legal process. I request that this matter be investigated urgently and look forward to your prompt reply.

It is worth adding reference to Section 35 of the County Courts Act 1984?

Any input gratefully received


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All of the above would be an appropriate response.

 

don't wait for them to discontinue,

You would need to defend on the basis that they are attempting to bring a second claim on the same account.

thast they are splitting a claim

that you have no knowledge of the account stated as it is subject to a CCJ

 

Once your defence is in, they leave themselves open to the all important wasted costs order

 

Basically, you would need to let them have the first CCJ as long as it is for a low amount, then anything they do with regards to bringing the remaining balance to court would be unlawful.

 

The key here is to do what is right for you, if a CCJ is not a problem, then agree to pay the first CCJ in manageable amounts, then you would have a clear paper trail to produce before the courts if and when they attempt to bring a claim for the outstanding balance.

 

You have the option of paying off the initial CCJ within 30 days to avoid having the CCJ recorded, but in my opinion since the defaults will have effectively trashed the credit record in any way, this would be counter productive and would effectively remove the paper trail you would use to demonstrate to the court the unlawful actions of the dca

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Hope this helps

 

 

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If you feel that have been helpful please feel free to tip the scales.

 

 

The large print giveth, but the small print taketh away. ~Tom Waits, Small Change

 

 

Please note: i am not a qualified lawyer, any advice is offered in good faith and is based on my own and others experiences and a penchant for research and a desire to help others to empower themselves

 

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Paying a small amount to 'get rid of the debt' is counter productive, it would still be in your records for 6 years that a payment was made, you would effectively have reset the statute of limitations again.

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Hi there

 

Worrying about CREDIT RECORDS is itself counter productive -- if you are being chased for debts or are defending CCJ's I DOUBT if you'd really be interested in getting credit again for a VERY long time if ever. Once they can't threaten you with "credit references" then thats another whole lot of stuff you DON'T have to bother with again.

 

The first thing to do is get the debt quashed --the fact that it doesn't show up in Credit records is irrelevant --it should always be in the COURT records if you need a paper trail.

 

I tend to agree with a pevious poster -- pay a minimum amount on the CCJ just to keep them fromhaving the money as long as possible and then you've effectively got the BIGGER part of the debt written off.

 

OK it might remain on your details --who cares - the main thing is to GET OUT OF DEBT and DONT TAKE ON ANY MORE CREDIT.

 

It's not impossible to live without Credit cards or borrowing money.

 

I'm always amazed on these Forums when people have got themselves in many thousands of pounds worth of debt that they are STILL worried about Credit Files -- forget them -- move on -- because - that part of your life is OVER.

 

Just get rid of the debt - and if the CCA is unenforceable tell the DCA to go and lump it.

 

Living without Credit IS possible and not too difficult either. Just needs a slightly different approach to what you've been used to before.

 

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited by jimbo45

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Am getting the idea here thank you. Is the letter in post 12 ok as a letter of complaint? Should those in this situation be making this complaint on receiving the split claim POC or wait until they either defend or pay?

 

many thanks


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If you HAVE to have a payment card use a pre paid credit card. Lots of companies offer these and you can top it up at the post office :)


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What Carter does in splitting claims is Unlawful by virtue of s35, so why is he allowed to do it?

If anyone has evidence that he is doing this, then I ask that this evidence be sent to the SRA. The more evidence they have that he does this (and any other unlawful behaviour by him) He should be struck off if he can't follow the law


I am a lawyer, but I am an academic lawyer. I do not practice as a barrister or solicitor. You should consult a practising Solicitor BEFORE taking any Court or other action

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I have evidence of Carter's claims shennaigans. A claim was issued for a small amount and judgement gained by default. At the bottom of the claim form Carter had written " we reserve the right to collect the remainder of the outstanding debt of £3,000). The debtor has paid the CCJ for the smaller amount - Carter then wrote to say he wanted payment of the balance and USED THE SAME JUDGEMENT NUMBER !! and now he has issued a warrant of execution for £150 when there is no balance left the pay on the judgement. He is attempting to get installments on the balance. N244 time I think?


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Hi there

 

Worrying about CREDIT RECORDS is itself counter productive -- if you are being chased for debts or are defending CCJ's I DOUBT if you'd really be interested in getting credit again for a VERY long time if ever. Once they can't threaten you with "credit references" then thats another whole lot of stuff you DON'T have to bother with again.

 

The first thing to do is get the debt quashed --the fact that it doesn't show up in Credit records is irrelevant --it should always be in the COURT records if you need a paper trail.

 

I tend to agree with a pevious poster -- pay a minimum amount on the CCJ just to keep them fromhaving the money as long as possible and then you've effectively got the BIGGER part of the debt written off.

 

OK it might remain on your details --who cares - the main thing is to GET OUT OF DEBT and DONT TAKE ON ANY MORE CREDIT.

 

It's not impossible to live without Credit cards or borrowing money.

 

I'm always amazed on these Forums when people have got themselves in many thousands of pounds worth of debt that they are STILL worried about Credit Files -- forget them -- move on -- because - that part of your life is OVER.

 

Just get rid of the debt - and if the CCA is unenforceable tell the DCA to go and lump it.

 

Living without Credit IS possible and not too difficult either. Just needs a slightly different approach to what you've been used to before.

 

 

Cheers

jimbo

 

Well said Jimbo. I'm hoping that Carter will behave this way on my Egg Credit card account that is currently with Fredericksons. I don't give two hoots about my credit record.

 

Regards.

 

Fred


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Good info all,

 

Just for clarity as Im in this situation, do I wait and pay the small amount and then fight them when they come knocking for the rest or do I send a split letter to the courts on the first claim.

 

Just a little confused and no expert.

 

TA

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Hi there

 

Opinion seems divided on this one -- Basically you could risk having the whole debt blown out of court, or pay the small amount on which a CCJ is being prepared and then you will not have to pay the rest.

 

You will need to wait for the POC from Northampton before paying otherwise you'll be slapped with a new CCJ for the WHOLE amount -- which without the CCJ threat for the first piece you wont be able to defend on the ground that this claim is split.

 

It's a bit like a poker game here -- you pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

My gut feel is that if you have a reasonable certainty that all the paperwork is NOT in order then defend the entire claim but if you are slightly more risk averse and the "first" CCJ claim is only around 5% of the total then you could pay this as you've STILL got off 95% of the debt.

 

If you go down this route DONT PAY UNTIL A CCJ CLAIM IS SENT otherwise as I said you'll get a new CCJ for the rest and you wont be able to prove that its a split claim.

 

Don't waste time worrying about Credit records -- if you've got as far as being threatened with CCJ's then the best thing to do is forget about credit again -- THAT PART OF YOUR LIFE IS NOW OVER and its time TO MOVE ON.

 

Its not so bad living without credit once you've got out of debt and its another LESS thing to have to deal with.

 

But remember you need to be very careful in dealing with slippery snakes like Bryan Carter and their ilk.

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited by jimbo45
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Am bumping this again as we have another 2 HFO CAGers with split claims now.

 

Any advice on what action to take and particularly the Complaints letter suggested would be appreciated.


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You could ask for the thread to be moved to legal issues folder.

 

Community legal might be able to advise those concerned.

 

http://www.communitylegaladvice.org.uk/


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How do I get it moved?


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