NRAM got [uncontested] CCJ/CO. £6k PPI on £15k loan! [never reclaimed] now sold debt - help

[will lliw]

Hi caggers,

Just want to say thanks eveyrone here as this is a great great site with many great people!

I have been reading all day and decided I need to post this as feeling a bit dizzy with the information

I have gleaned so far and need to start the ball rolling as you do......

 

Right here goes...

 

In 2004 I took out an unsecured Loan with NR and

due to ill health and change of job I havent made any payment since middle of last year [2009]

and then that was an agreed reduced amount due to financial difficulties!

 

I have till next week to get my defence off to court

having received a claim from Northern Rock asset management a few weeks ago,

being heard in Gateshead.

 

This is not my first "fight" but it will be the biggest as its for a sum in excess of £20K,

I havent been looking forward to this but I knew it was coming so without further ado....

 

POC

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

1

 

a)

By a consumer credit agreement in writing made between Northern Rock PLC and the defendant made on or about XX XXXX 2004 the claimant agreed to advance to the defendant the sum of £xx. A copy of the loan agreement is attached to these proceedings pursuant to CPR PD16 7.3(1). The said sum was advanced to the defendant on or about xx xxxx 2004.

b)

By a registration certificate dated 31st Decemeber 2009 the name of the claimant Northern Rock PLC was changed to Northern Rock (Asset Management) PLC

2

The said loan togethor with a charge for credit calculated in accordance with the terms of the agreement, was repayable by 84 consecutive monthly instalments of £xx

3

The said agreement provided:

a)

That shoulod the defendant fail to pay any of the monthly instalments on time or in full, the claimant might reqiure the defendent to pay, inter alia, the outstanding balance of the total amount payable under the loan agreement and any other sums unoaid under the agreement and

 

b)

That the defendent agreed to pay the costs and expenses which the Claimant would incur for obtaining payment, should the Defendent fail to pay any sum on time or breach the agreement.

4

The defendent failed to pay instalments as contractually obliged under the agreement and thus, fell into arrears.

 

5

Pursuant to the consumer credit act 1974, a notice of default dated xx xxxx 2010 was sent to the defendent by first class post the next working day, which notice reqiured the Defendent to remedy the said breach by xx xxxx 2010

 

6

The defendent failed to remedy the breach within the said period. By a written demand dated xx xxxx 2010 and served upon the defendent, the Claimant demanded from the Defendent repayment of the outstanding loan balance of £xx, being the balance of the loan (which includes the sum which represented the arrears at the time of default)

7

The defendent failed to repay the balance. Therefore the Defendent remains liable to pay to the claimant the said sum of £xx, being the balance of the loan (which includes the sum which represented the arrears at the time of default)

 

8

Despite a further written demand made by the claimant solicitor dated xx xxxx 2010, the defendent has continued to fail to pay the said sum.

 

The claimant therefore claims:

 

(1)

£xx being the balance of the loan (which balance is inclusive of the arrears at the time of default and interest pursuant to the agreement)

(2)

Costs upon an indemnity basis pursuant to the agreement.

 

 

Statment of truth etc.........

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

So thats the POC and also attached is a notice from hmcs that I am not sure about, saying....

 

 

Please note that your part 7 claim is subject to an Automatic orders pilot scheme effective from 1 October 2009 to 30 September 2010 pursuant to part 51 of the civi procedure rules.

 

The following automatic orders apply:

 

1. Where any party fails to file an AQ within the time period specified, the court will automaticcaly issue a notification that the defence/claim/counterclaim/will be struck out automatically if an AQ is not filed within 7 days of service of that notification.

 

2. Where a party in a fast track case (where there is only one claimant and one defendent) and upon expiry for the date of filing a pre trial check list, the court will automatically issue a notification that the defence/claim will be struck out automatically if a pre trial checklist is not filed within 7 days service of that notification

 

3. Where all parties indicate on the AQ N150 and N151 that they request a first stay on a claim, the court will automatically issue a stay for one month.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[will lliw]

A copy of the CCA was also included,

it was a fairly decent copy with both theirs and my sigs.

Will scan and post as could do with an expert eye to look over it.

 

I think my next step is to send a cpr 31.14 to get hold of the DN and Registration certificate,

as my CCA is with Northern Rock PLC not Northern Rock asset management PLC.

Then file my embarrased defence as I wait to recieve the docs from the cpr 31.

But thats all I have to go on at the minute,

 

I also have PPI issues as I was misold and will head over to the PPI forum shortly to post there,

right now my neck is sore as I been sat here all day working on this.......

 

Is it correct that mis sold PPI does not render the CCA un enforcable???

There seems to be lots of debate about this issue, I only hope so as I dont have much of a defence yet!

 

Thanks in advance

 

W

Edited September 7, 2010 by will lliw

[will lliw]

I could really use some help with this one guys please,

 

have drafted a CPR 31 letter and psoted below but not sure if its ok.

 

Its the one I used last year fro another case.

could somebody please have alook and let me know what you think......

 

The main issues for me to understand with this are should I be asking for the CCA copy again

as it was served with POC and the buisness of NR name change is a mystery to me to.

 

Im thinking it may be similiar to a notice of asignment issue,

but can a party to a CCA change there name like this and if they can do they have to inform all parties involved??

 

CPR 31 draft......

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re: Northern Rock (asset management) PLC –v- will lliw

 

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On 19 August 2010 I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Gateshead County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following documents mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 The default notices.

 

3 A registration certificate dated 31st of December 2009 showing the name change of the claimant.

 

4 The written demands

 

Your client should ensure compliance with its CPR 31 duties and ensure that the documents I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

[will lliw]

My heads spinning today,

spent all morning trying to figure out if my CCA is correct but im having a really bad day!!

 

no responce to my thread here so far leads me to start thinking im doomed!

Cant find very many other northern rock threads to go by, not looking good at all

 

If anybody can help in anyway I would apreciate it very much,

 

I have to file my defence by next tue and so far I have nothing!

 

Heres the CCA with personal stuff cut out hopefully somebody with a wise eye can exam it

 

Edited September 9, 2010 by will lliw

[will lliw]

Hi guys,

im currently trying to put a defence togethor for a claim from NR for an unsecured loan i took out.

Ive had quiet a journey this week trying to catch up on all of this stuff

and as my head is spinning at present I would appreciate some help figuring this out.

 

When I took out the NR loan in 2004 I was told on the phone that I had to take the PPI or there could be no loan.

I didnt want the PPI as wanted to keep the monthly costs down

but the lady on the phone insisted and so I had no choice aparently.

 

I am now in possesion of a copy of the alleged CCA as it was served with the POC

and it shows the PPI is added to the amount of credit and thus interest is charged on it!

 

I think this is mad and it does increas the loan by a huge amount.

This is the bit I am not sure and if anybody can help as i dont have alot of time left to tackle this!

 

Heres the CCA if theres anybody who could looke at the financial figures and see if the PPI cost is correct....

[will lliw]

67 views and not one reply, starting to fear the worst here!!

 

Does anybody have anykind of answer for me or perhaps have a link were I can find more resources, thanks....

[will lliw]

Can somebody please help, even if its to say your doomed I would appreciate a reply!

 

I have posted in the PPI forum to but no responce there ethier.

 

As I sit here and think about all this I realise I am struggling to frame the very question I need to be asking,

 

given that NR have already started a claim against me for thhis loan,

should my PPI claim now come as part of my defence to this claim

or should I send off the FOS consumer questionnaire to NR and persue the PPI this way,

possibly getitng NR to rewrite the loan minus PPI.

 

Any replys welcome, even if to just prove my ramblings make any sort of sence at all..

 

 

Thankyou

[dx100uk]

get reclaiming !

 

you say POC...is this in a court case already?

 

dx

[MandM]

Hi Will,

 

Did you ever claim against the PPI?

I noticed that you said that one of the reasons for payments ceasing was due to ill health.

 

Did they ever terminate the agreement (apologies if i've missed it)?

If not, and we assume date of termination as being the issuing of proceedings then,

according to my quick calculation, you could be entitled to your PPI back plus about £3,800 in interest.

Reduces the liability somewhat .

 

You can introduce the PPI as a counter claim at any time I believe

- I'm sure someone can correct me if i'm wrong.

 

I'm assuming you have already submitted a defence so at worst

I think you may have to pay a fee to introduce a counter claim now.

 

Out of interest what made you take the PPI? Was this their suggestion or your wish?

 

You may have to go this alone due to time constraints.

FOS seem to be taking about 5 months to investigate at the moment on a couple of mine so that might not help you.

 

M

[will lliw]

Hi dx100uk, thanks for looking in.

 

In answer to your question,

Northern Rock have already started a claim against me for this unsecured loan and I am at AQ stage.

 

I want to reclaim the PPI as it was miss sold,

when i tool out the loan I was told I had to take the PPI

or could not have the loan!

 

Im not sure how I should proceed to claim back the PPI, now that a claim is already in progress against me!

 

That little vioce in my head is saying you probably have to counterclaim in the current case

but ive never had to do that before.

 

ive also read some threads that suggest adding PPI costs to the loan amount is against CPR

and so renders the CCA invalid but then I cant find a definitive anser on this issue at all!

[dx100uk]

i'd ping dj1971

see if he will knock you up a shedule of PPI PDQ

 

not sure if to leave this thread here or move it to the legal section as its underway in court.

 

dx

[will lliw]

Hi MandM, big thankyou for your reply

 

To answer your questions,

I have not claimed on the PPI but I did request a claim form,

and then threw it away due to its complexity.

 

When i took out the loan I was told I had to have the PPI if I wanted the loan,

I recall being quiet miffed at the time and this was nearly 6 years ago so I must have been mad to remeber that!!

 

I agree with you about the liability,

it almost reduces by half what NR claime I owe, so thats all good its just figrung out how I go about claiming that back,

ether by counterclaiming or going the consumer Q route but as you say I dont have the luxury of time here!

 

Im currently at AQ stage and need to get that posted by end of week,

I have submitted an embarrased defence as I didnt have the docs on the POC.

I have recieved the docs now following a CPR 31.14 and need to go through them

with a fine comb to put a proper defence togethor!

 

Do you happen to know what timescales are involved from AQ stage to hearing

and if its possible to submit a new defence in this phase?

[will lliw]

Already got a thread in Legal section about this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?275936-Northern-rock-asset-management-v-little-old-me&highlight=

 

Sorry but whats PDQ??

[MandM]

i'd ping dj1971

see if he will knock you up a shedule of PPI PDQ

 

not sure if to leave this thread here or move it to the legal section as its underway in court.

 

dx

I'd asy "yes" if it's reached AQ stage!!

 

Already got a thread in Legal section about this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?275936-Northern-rock-asset-management-v-little-old-me&highlight=

 

Sorry but whats PDQ??

pretty damn quick.

 

Hi Will,

 

Have posted on your other thread. You seem to have answered some of the questions I asked on your other thread. You certainly seem to have grounds for them mis-selling.

 

Whereabouts are you at AQ stage? Are they submitted yet?

 

What did you put in as a defence?

 

M

[082stewie]

Hi Will,

 

The PPI element can normally be claimed without going through any courts. Should just be a standard template letter to them asking for a refund of the payments.

 

You may have left this pretty late in the day to get an outcome before your court appearance. Perhaps give Northern Rock a call and see if something can be arranged to have the PPI element off-set on the arrears. Could keep them away for a bit. They can move swiftly if motivated.

 

In court Northern Rock will state you were sent the documents to claim on the PPI but never returned the documents and push back to you.

 

Wishing you luck with this one.

 

PS: Are Northern Rock going to Judgement or trying to secure the loan against property? Or both?

[MandM]

Pop the wording up of the defence you used or link to it if it's on another thread. Was there scope or wording in that defence asking for a full defence to be issued following the claimant doing X, Y and Z?

 

Have a good read of your CPR responses - see what they have failed to answer. That can be drawn out now using some carefully worded directions within your AQs.

 

Keep bumping this up - could do with someone looking in and advising on the counterclaim situation!!! Seems a good direction to go at the moment.

 

As far as timing goes, assuming this is heading for fast track it's unlikely to reach court until the Spring. However (there's always a 'however' lol), there may be other applications in the meantime - they may go for having your defence struck out, charging order hearing etc. Depends what they try and do next to worry you.

 

The last big one I had AQs on was last October and it didn't reach court until March so time is still on your side.

 

M

[will lliw]

In the XXXXX County Court

Claim number XXXXXXX

 

 

 

Between

Northern rock (asset management) PLC

 

and

 

XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX

 

 

Defence

 

1. Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.

 

2. The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -

 

3. The claimants’ Particulars of Claim disclose no legal cause of action and they are embarrassing to the defendant as the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;

 

a) The Particulars of Claim are vague and insufficient and do not disclose an adequate statement of facts relating to or preceding the alleged cause of action. No particulars are offered in relation to the method the claimant calculated any outstanding sums due, or any default notices issued or any other matters necessary to substantiate the claimant’s claim.

 

 

b) A copy of any evidence of both the scope and nature of any default, and proof of any amount outstanding on the alleged accounts, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

4. Consequently, I deny all allegations on the particulars of claim and do not know what case I have to answer

 

 

5. Further to the case, on xx xx 2010 I requested the disclosure of information pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules Part 31.14, copies of the documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely the Credit Agreement, the Notice of Default, the written demands and the Registration certificate.

 

6. Despite the fact that the Civil Procedure Rules 31.15 demand a response within seven days, my request for information under the Civil Procedure Rules 31.14 has been ignored. Since the claimant has refused to disclose the requested information it is submitted that I do not hold sufficient information to compile a full defence to the claimants allegations at this stage

 

7. It is my opinion that the claimant is trying to frustrate matters in refusing to disclose the documents requested and the claimant is ignoring the overriding objective and the courts attention is drawn to the fact that the claimant has refused to respond to my legitimate request. It is submitted that the claimant taking this course of action places me at a clear disadvantage and there is no apparent reason why the claimant would seek to withhold this documentation from me.

 

8. The courts attention is drawn to the fact that the without disclosure of the requested documentation pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules I have not yet had the opportunity to assess if the documentation the claimant claims to be relying upon to bring this action even contains the prescribed terms required in Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) which was amended by Consumer Credit (Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI2004/1482). The prescribed terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following--

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

9. The courts attention is drawn to the fact that where an agreement does not have the prescribed terms as stated in point 8 it is not compliant with section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and therefore not enforceable by s127 (3). The courts attention is also drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and Consumer Credit (Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI2004/1482) the agreement cannot be enforced

 

10. Notwithstanding points 8 and 9, both debtor and creditor must sign any such agreements in the prescribed manner. If such a document is not signed by the debtor the document cannot be enforced by way of section 127(3) Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

11. The claimant is therefore put to strict proof that such a compliant document exists

 

12. It is neither admitted or denied that any Default Notice in the prescribed format was ever received and the Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof that said document in the prescribed format was delivered to the defendant. I note that without service of a default notice under s87 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 the claimant would not have a right to demand repayment of any sums under an agreement or to terminate an agreement

 

13. Notwithstanding point 12, I put the claimant to strict proof that any default notice sent to me was valid. I note that to be valid, a default notice needs to be accurate in terms of both the scope and nature of breach and include an accurate figure required to remedy any such breach. The prescribed format for such document is laid down in Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) and Amendment regulations the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3237)

 

14. Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but would also give rise to a potential counterclaim for damages where damage occurs to my credit rating (Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society - [1996] 4 All ER 119)

 

15. Without Disclosure of the relevant requested documentation I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable to the claimant, nor am I able to assess if the alleged agreement is properly executed, contain the required prescribed terms, or correct figures to make such an agreement enforceable by virtue of s127 Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

16. In view of the matters pleaded above, I respectfully request that the court gives consideration to whether the claimant’s statement of case should be struck out as disclosing no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim, and/or that it fails to comply with CPR Part 16.

 

17. Alternatively, I respectfully request the court orders full disclosure of the documentation requested in point 5. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and respectfully request the courts permission to amend my defence accordingly.

 

 

 

 

Statement of Truth

 

 

I xxxxx xxxxxx, believe the above statement to be true and factual

 

 

Signed …………………

 

Date

[will lliw]

Thats the embarrased defence I have used, it has served me well once before just hope it holds up still.

 

Glad to hear I will proberbly have some time then before this goes to trial as I am now in possesion of the docs requested in the CPR31.14, but need to look through them properly at some point.

 

The AQ is sat hear waiting to be posted, I have untill this friday. I have filled it out following the guide here but havent posted yet just incase I need to change anything following any advice here.

[mysticpols06]

Am subscribing to your thread hun & seriously wishing you good luck. I will add the link to my thread regarding almost identical problem which might help you in your case? If nothing else then to let you see just how quick and sly they can be. Don't forget to update & take care, Mpols x

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?184665-Northern-Rock-Q-Whats-wrong-here

Edited September 29, 2010 by mysticpols06
adding link x

[MandM]

I am now in possesion of the docs requested in the CPR31.14, but need to look through them properly at some point.

 

Hi will. Any progress? What was/wasn't in your CPR responses?

[will lliw]

Hi will. Any progress? What was/wasn't in your CPR responses?

 

Hi Mand, sorry it took me so long to reply.

 

I have received all docs requested and they all seem in order

 

The only defence I have left is the PPI being mis sold and added to the loan amount so ive paid interest on it

 

Trouble is I cant find a definitive answer on whether this invalidates the CCA or not so im chasing my own tail.

 

In addition to this ive been allocated a hearing at Gateshead on 1st Nov,

theres no way im going all the way up there so need to somehow get it moved to a more local court.

 

As things stand I think I may get my first CCJ,

[will lliw]

Hi Will,

 

The PPI element can normally be claimed without going through any courts. Should just be a standard template letter to them asking for a refund of the payments.

 

You may have left this pretty late in the day to get an outcome before your court appearance. Perhaps give Northern Rock a call and see if something can be arranged to have the PPI element off-set on the arrears. Could keep them away for a bit. They can move swiftly if motivated.

 

In court Northern Rock will state you were sent the documents to claim on the PPI but never returned the documents and push back to you.

 

Wishing you luck with this one.

 

PS: Are Northern Rock going to Judgement or trying to secure the loan against property? Or both?

 

Hi, thanks for posting and apologies it took so long to reply.

 

They are going for judgement and the date is set at Nov 1st!

 

I am going to write to NR and ask them to remove the PPI cost and redo the loan without it,

although as you say my time scale is really short!

 

I really could do with finding out if the adding of the ppi to the loan amount invalidates the cca,

any idea?

[MandM]

Hi Mand, sorry it took me so long to reply. I have recieevd all docs requested and they all seem in order The only defence I have left is the PPI being mis sold and added to the loan amount so ive paid interest on it Trouble is I cant find a definitive answer on wether this invalidates the CCA or not so im basicly chasing my own tail.

 

In addition to this ive been allocated a hearing at Gateshead on 1st Nov, theres no way im going all the way up there so need to somehow get it moved to a more local court. As things stand I think I may get my first CCJ, ucking banks.....

 

Hi will,

 

What is the hearing for in November? And how has it ended up at Gateshead??? Were the AQs not sent out from your local court?

 

Start looking at PPI threads NOW. You need to get this c/claim underway, if only to limit the damage.

 

M

[dx100uk]

get it restructured dont let them do a new agreement.

 

dx

[will lliw]

get it restructured dont let them do a new agreement.

 

dx

 

Do you think writing to NR somthing like:

 

"Dear Nr, it has come to my attention that you are guilty of mis selling the PPI .

You informed me verbally that in order to have the loan I also had to take the PPI.

 

In view of this I request that you restructure the loan,

removing the PPI element that was mis sold, not forgeting to recalculate the amount

charged for credit as you also charged interest on the amount for PPI

which is against CPR somthing or other."

 

 

I have to get moving on this now as I am running out of time, the court hearing is 1st of Nov!