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    • No you're not doomed. It's a shame you covered up the dates and times on your PCN since they can possibly help your case when they don't comply with the requirements of the rules in private car parks. Could you please therefore include the arrival and departure times as well as the date of the offence and the date on which they alleged they sent you the PCN. The PCN does not comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.since the wording should invite the keeper to pay the outstanding amount. Also I cannot see on the PCN that UKPO are the Creditor though I may have missed it since it is so unusual not to include it. The upshot is that you as keeper are no longer liable to pay the charge if the driver fails to pay within 28 days-0nly the driver is now liable. As Courts [assuming it gets that far ] do not accept that the driver and the keeper are not the same these rogues will have a hard job who was driving unless you appeal or have appealed and revealed who was driving. You did say that you weren't parked there long and had that been correct you have perhaps 15 minutes where you might have had a further. argument. As it judging by the confusing times mentioned in the wording or the PCN you were there for almost an hour? However as the light was not good and I presume the signs were not illuminated that is a reason that you could not see the sign. And did you have your blue badge showing ? Interestingly the post code quoted does not agree with the Post office one in West houghton= BL5 3JS Are there two different Tesco  car parks in Bolton. You obviously could not be in two places at the same time...............
    • Especially because you have bought the car on finance, there is probably quite a lot that you can do although it sounds as if you are maybe taking the appropriate steps anyway. However you need to give as much more information. We need to know – the name of the dealer details of the vehicle, make, model, mileage, age, price paid – 70 8K? The name of the finance company – and some dates. Date purchased, the date that you have logged this with the FOS and I'm sure there will be other questions. I suppose that you don't understand your consumer rights very well because issues like the sunroof et cetera should have been repaired by the dealership and there was no need for you to spend your own money on this. On the basis of what you have told us, I would suggest that eventually should be up to recover all of your money plus the expenses you have incurred in carrying out repairs. And in fact – you could also list out the faults which have manifested themselves so far and the money you have spent on correcting those. You are entitled to purchase a vehicle which is of satisfactory quality remains that way for a reasonable period of time. At £78,000 I wouldn't expect any serious issues to manifest themselves in this vehicle for quite a few years. Tell us also about the £2400 inspection that you have had carried out. Were you advised to do this? To do this of your own initiative? Who carried it out? That lot for a start
    • Hi Dx, I am hoping you have had an opportunity to skim through this thread. Please may I give it a humble bump for your consideration. My last date to present a WS is Wednesday the 17th. Many thanks and kind regards 🙏  
    • Hello I've got a parking ticket, see here... https://ibb.co/DfHqg9F https://ibb.co/QvqH52m https://ibb.co/pbPPdDg https://ibb.co/X2F1X25 I've been parking at a particular corner in a small Tesco car park for years. Recently they put two electric charging plugs, one where that spot is and one at the bay next door, so I stopped using them out of courtesy in case they need to be used (I use that Tesco every day and drive past every day but have yet to see anyone use them). Recently I went back to Tesco when it was reasonably dark. All the bays were full, including the three blue badge bays. I have one but none of the cars parked in the bays did, I noticed as I walked past them (nobody ever gets pulled for that because Tesco have never policed this small car park before). Since there was two free electric bay spaces, and since I wasn't going to be long (just one product), I parked into my former 'regular' spot. There was a notice on the wall but if I'm honest I didn't read it because (a) I'm thick, and (b) I honestly thought it was just telling people how to use the device (like I said, I'm thick) rather than this being a parking fine. I went back during daylight and the sign is very obvious (as you can see from the picture), although not so obvious at night, although probably still obvious enough for you to tell me "tough luck, pal". Now they want £100 or £60 if I pay quickly. Am I doomed?
    • Hi All   After a bit of advice to see where I stand. Bought a car in Sept 2022 on pcp. Been told it had a big inspection and was good to go. Had many issues with it throughout the year including trims coming off the car and sunroof not closing.   While getting the sunroof repaired at month 12, in Sept 2023, the bodyshop guy said your cars been in a bad accident. Garage said it hasn't but offered to take the car back at half of what I paid for it as long as I buy a replacement from them before inspecting it (probably damage control) (car was £78k, said they'd offer £40k "trade in value" as if doing me a favour).   Ended up getting a forensic inspection done for £2400 in Dec 2023, confirmed car was in a bad smash (write off level but unrecorded on hpi) and potentially unsafe to drive - front end is slightly bent towards 1 side, what looks like a hairline crack on the chasis, overspray, bonner with patches of filler all over it, damaged rubbers etc   Raised complaint to finance company and few weeks ago to FOS... just wondering what people's experiences have been like going through the FOS, main thing that concerns me is that it was 12-13 months after I bought the car that I realised what caused these issues and raised the issue to the garage/ finance co but the damage/ misaligned panels are actually visible in the advert photos which I saved thankfully.    Dealership has had my car for 4 weeks to let a few bodyshops look at it (without giving me a courtesy car!!!) Not giving me any updates either because I went to the FOS about it and didnt want to speak to them over the phone anymore as opposed to emails. Note: hanging trim was reported within 3 months but due to part delays it didn't come until like July 2023, within 2 months the piece came off again, claimed under repairers warranty for another replacement 6 weeks ago and within 2 weeks this time the trim is coming off AGAIN (assuming it won't stay on due to the car being actually bent out of shape slightly)   Any idea if I have a good case or if there's anything else I can do?   Thanks
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Non Payment prosecution


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My daughter was recently stopped leaving a station without a valid ticket so I appreciate that she has done something wrong. She was then taken to the platform by a guard (she thinks) and intimidated into signing a statement admitting intent after threats of arrest. The guard also refused to go into an office or private area to complete the statement, dealing with her in full view of the public. The whole incident left her very upset and distressed.

 

She has today received a letter asking her to confirm that she was the person travelling and that the incident has been authorized for prosecution. What does this mean?

 

I have read some other threads on this site and ask for help in how to proceed. She is in her final year of a degree in Social Work and would therefore be required to complete CRB checks for future jobs. Will this matter result in her receiving a Criminal conviction and what would be the effect of this for her future employment.

 

Is she able to settle this matter out of court and avoid a conviction?, if so how does she go about this.

 

Thanks for any help that you may be able to offer in the matter

Edited by shotty
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follow the advice in other threads

the best way is to grovel and offer to pay all costs now

this should will ensure there will be no markers left.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks for the quick reply dx.

 

How should the letter be worded? just apologise and offer to pay all costs or mention a fine and costs? Also do you think she should include mention of her degree and future complications this may result in.

 

If this is rejected though what would be the likely outcome regarding fines and a criminal record

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if it is her 1st offence then it will go no further and no criminal record will be made/court be used

 

have a look in a few thread here

there are suitable letters i'm sure i've seen them

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Always difficult answering with only partial facts, but:

 

If your daughter is over 18, or nearly 18, then the incident can be listed for hearing in an adult Magistrates Court, whether it is a first offence or not.

 

It could be listed as a recordable offence, if an intent to avoid the fare is 'provable', or a non-recordable offence.

 

At this stage of the process, unless there are 'aggravating features', the prosecuting authority, would probably accept payment outside of Court. If your daughter is over 18, she needs to write to them. If she is under, then either you or she should write.

 

Most prosecutors will be looking for some sort of demonstration that the alleged offender will not offend again, and some sort of payment to cover their costs so far. From your post, I don't think that they have mentioned 'money'.

 

You will see from other threads the range of 'money' that sometimes gets asked for. It would certainly include the fare that was avoided, and something close to the costs that they would get if the case went to Court.

 

Time for 'daughter' to get her pen out!

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I don't like disagreeing with DX, but, first offence or not, any offence can end up in Court. I have never fathomed out why some cases get into Court, and sometimes I cannot work out why some very deserving cases don't. All prosecuting authorities have 'policies', but I think that 'court time', practicalities and other factors often come into play.

 

I think that the 'prosecution unit' would most likley take the easiest route to close a case. They all seem to be grossly overworked by the companies that employ them, from the conversations that I have had. The individual case loads make public prosecutors shudder.

 

The point for anyone reading this thread who might be considering avoiding a fare is: don't. It can go to Court, first time or not.

  • Haha 1
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not an issue dearboy

 

you are far more knowledgable than the cag firefighter!

nothing like working on the right coalface

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

Hi Wriggler,

 

My daughter is 20 and her only involvement with the Police in her life was as a victim of an assault a few years ago. My worry is the statement she signed admitting the INTENT aspect. Do you think this means that a court case is unavoidable as I imagine this case is on the company's 'provable' pile.

 

You also mention aggrevating factors - what are these.

 

About writing to the Prosecuting authority. Is this the company themselves or does she wait until a court date is given and then write to the CPS/Court. The letter received does not mention anything about money at all, in fact it states do not send any payments to ths office, it purely gives the date and time of the incident and asks her to confirm that she was the person stopped.

 

This has caused big arguments in the house over the last couple of days as I'm upset that she has done it worried that it will have an impact on her career as mentioned above. What would be the worst case scenario?

 

Thanks

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Hi Wriggler,

 

My daughter is 20 and her only involvement with the Police in her life was as a victim of an assault a few years ago. My worry is the statement she signed admitting the INTENT aspect. Do you think this means that a court case is unavoidable as I imagine this case is on the company's 'provable' pile.

Hi,

 

The staff concerned, quite rightly so, didn't want to interview your daughter in a quiet room, probably for safety reasons. You say your daughter was intimidated? In what way? Some staff can come across as intimidating, but this isn't intentional...Others on the other hand...

 

Your daughter admitted her intent, so I'm assuming no matter how intimidated she felt, she would have pleaded her case to the Inspector/Officer if she felt she wasn't guilty of an offence, or hadn't knowingly committed one. All said and done, if it's her first offence, then she may well be able to avoid court, although it's ever easier to take somebody to court once intent has been established, for obvious reasons. It would help having some more info to be honest. What was the nature of the offence? I would personally mention the implications this could have on my future employment, along with how sorry I am etc etc, in a letter. And the prosecuting body is the Train Company or organisation making the report, eg; South West Trains or Transport for London (solely as an example). This will be instantly noticeable from any correspondence.

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Curiosity, who is the CAG firefighter? Sounds like a fireman who didn't know how to use a hose??!! :!:

 

me! see under my avatar

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Stigy,

 

I've tried to avoid making this an issue about how she was dealt with, if she has doen something wrong she needs to face up to this. She said that she didn't have time to buy a ticket before getting on the train and travelled 2/3 stops. She was then stopped by someone as she was leaving her destination station.

 

I do however have to disagree with your comment about the room. Surely things like this could be dealt with out of the public view, the company could have a room/area to go to. Even somewhere where other staff are to cover the safety/allegations aspect would surely be better than a platform. Police interviews aren't conducted in the street are they. Also if this is a document to be used in court should she have been offered the chance to speak to a solicitor before going ahead.

 

I believe Police interviews if not done on tape still have to ask if they want a solicitor present before going ahead.

 

Regarding the intimidation matter she tells me that she was asked for her version, gave it and was then repeatedly badgered and told that this was a lie and that if she didn't sign to admit the offence she would be arrested.

 

The company in the letter is Southeastern so I assume that is who will be dealing with the matter. Thanks for your comments regarding info to put in the letter

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Yes, Southeastern Trains are the people you need to write to, and the Prosecutions address will be at the top of the letter.

 

Interviews are usually done reletively discretely, but it's often not convenient to conduct one in a room anyway, for example, interviews often take place either on board trains or at un-staffed stations. Also, the staff dealing with the interview might not be based at the station he or she is questioning at, and as such won't have access to any of its buildings etc. In answer to your question, no, there's won't have been the offer to have a Solicitor present, as your daughter was not under arrest and the Police weren't involved.

 

If what you say is correct about the intimidation, then it does seem rather harsh, and refusal to sign the notes certainly won't lead to arrest.

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If she was LEAVING the station then how would her fare have been paid if she'd not been stopped? Unfortunately the answer is peobably "it wouldn't", therefore the intent is proven.

 

As for taking someone into a room or out of view of the public to interview, I certainly wouldn't do this, particularly with a lone female as it could leave the inspector wide open to all kinds of accusations.

Views expressed in this forum by me are my own personal opinion and you take it on face value! I make any comments to the best of my knowledge but you take my advice at your own risk.

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The other guys have covered most of the points about location of interview. If a 'big burly Inspector' had taken her into a private office, the debate would have been about how intimidating that would have been.

 

The biggest influence in my 'advocacy' used to make a great practice of simply ignoring most of the story, and cutting straight to the points germaine to the offence. If I understand the case (always a big if, creeping senility) the evidence comes from the observed actions of your daughter, the 'interview' doesn't really add much to the 'evidence'.

 

Moving on, what you as a mum want is for your daughter to get the best outcome of the situation that is possible. Understandable.

 

Just because the prosecuting authority probably can prove an offence doesn't mean that they will put it into Court. Court time is precious, and most will have cases that really need to be 'done', and therefore for practical reasons may well deal with this case 'out of Court'. The people who will decide are the Southeastern guys whose address will be on the letter.

 

Your daughter is 20. Sorry Mum, she needs to deal with this, you cannot.

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She needs to write to them. Ignoring their letter guarantees prosecution.

 

I suggest that she doesn't give away any more evidence, but does show contrition. Apologise!

 

She may want to give away some hints about the disproportionate effect a recordable conviction would have on her career. Incidentally, in some circumstances that might cause a duty solicitor to speak for her at Court.

 

I think she should offer to pay the outstanding fare, and reasonable costs. (Not 'anything you ask for' as some writers state, and I have read such letters.)

 

I expect that Southeastern will write back informing what their decision is.

 

Take it one step at a time, lets see what their response is.

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All,

 

Thanks for your help and advice. As I have mentioned a couple of times in my posts I'm not condoning what she has done and have said that she must face up to her actions. My reason for asking for help on here was to try and find out the procedure for dealing with this matter and whether it would definetly result in a court case and criminal record that could affect her future.

 

Believe me words have been said and a lesson has very much been learned. She will write a letter as suggested and hope that the company are willing to settle out of court.

 

I will let you know of their decision and possible further advice

 

Thanks again

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Hi Wriggler,

 

My daughter is 20 and her only involvement with the Police in her life was as a victim of an assault a few years ago. My worry is the statement she signed admitting the INTENT aspect. Do you think this means that a court case is unavoidable as I imagine this case is on the company's 'provable' pile.

 

You also mention aggrevating factors - what are these.

 

About writing to the Prosecuting authority. Is this the company themselves or does she wait until a court date is given and then write to the CPS/Court. The letter received does not mention anything about money at all, in fact it states do not send any payments to ths office, it purely gives the date and time of the incident and asks her to confirm that she was the person stopped.

 

This has caused big arguments in the house over the last couple of days as I'm upset that she has done it worried that it will have an impact on her career as mentioned above. What would be the worst case scenario?

 

Thanks

 

Unless a serious offence was reported by British Transport Police (or other Police force) this will not be a matter prosecuted by CPS (although they do have a right to see any case file), the matter will be prosecuted by the TOC own prosecutor or, an agency engaged by the rail company.

 

It seems from your post that your daughter has not yet received a Summons, but has had a letter, which outlines the allegation and may be asking for her version of events

 

Where allegations of intimidation are concerned, it is advisable to tread carefully.

 

I hope that you will take this in the spirit it is intended, it is not meant to suggest infallibility of rail staff:

 

Firstly, neither you or I were present, so whatever you may say happened or what I may believe happened on the basis of your say-so, it is only hearsay.

 

If your daughter does not agree with the content of the letter, it has to be recognised that she is over 18 and SHE should write explaining her objection and putting her signed version of what happened in writing to the rail company.

 

As has already been pointed out, any such alleged offence may be Summonsed to a Court hearing, but if your daughter believes that the charge is erroneous, or that she was under duress and coerced into signing an admission of guilt, though genuiniely does not believe that she is guilty of any offence, then she must say so.

 

There is no automatic 'option to pay' where any summary offence is alleged and the case may proceed, although the prosecutor may be persuaded to permit an administrative settlement in some circumstances.

 

As for worst case scenario, if the matter went to Court and your daughter pleaded 'not guilty', but was convicted, she would face a fine (to a maximum of Level 3) and allowing for the average across the Courts in my experience, this would normally fall between £100 - £350. Additionally, it is likely that she would be ordered to pay the prosecution costs of anywhere between £70 - £150, would be ordered to pay compensation of the fare avoided and a 'Victim Surcharge' of £15.00.

 

The average total across most of England would be somewhere around £300, but this can only be offered as a very loose guideline.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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