Car bought at Auction

[determindator]

Family friend situation. car bought at Auction for not a small amount. Driving along shortly afterwards and stopped by police. Scuse me Sir, please step out of the car. Was told the car was reported stolen. Replied I think there's a mistake Officer as I bought the car recently at Auction and here's the docs. All went back to Police station to clarify the problem. It unravels and the car was sold to the Auction house with a cloned credit card, so it looks bonafide. Thinking, well that's sorted have the car back and give me my money. No, car is impounded until matter is sorted. Auction house contacted to give money back and they won't refund as credit card company have taken money back from Auction House so no money going back to friend. As I see it, the car was bought in good faith and the Auction House should be covered by insurance for such eventualities. What's the betting this is another unregulated area but i'm convinced the Auction House should take the loss as the car was their responsibility. Any thoughts greatly appreciated, friend is chipping away at it but someone on site may know the law on this.

[wheelergeezer]

Credit card company have taken money back? Who's money? Your friends?

 

This is so unlcear. Are you saying the auction company bought the car or sold the car. As I read it, your friend bought the car at an auction. If the car turns out to be stolen, the auction company MUST refund - no options at all. If your friend paid by credit card, then all they need to do is contact the CC company and have the transactyion stopped.

 

My main concern is you talk in both the first person and third person. Is it you that bought the car? Is it you that sold the car?

 

Name the auction company. I know all the auction companies in the UK.

[determindator]

Thanks for reply Wheeler. The credit card company of the cloned card took the money back from the Auction House. The car was sold to the Auction house initially with a cloned credit card. The Auction House sold the car to the family friend. The car was bought with cash by family friend. I will get Auction House name. With great thanks.

[wheelergeezer]

That is a little clearer and a very different situation.

 

Auction or not, if the auction house owned the car (which is what you are saying) and they sold it as if they were the owner, the transaction is complete. The car turns out to be stolen, then they MUST refund the money and seek redress from wherever they bought it from. There is no movement on this.

 

Now, ALL legitimate auction companies (car austions I mean) charge buyers premium. this includes indemnity against the car being stolen, written off etc. There is no law that says they must provide this, but if they charged for it they must.

 

Bottom line is that your friend bought and paid for a car from the seller directly in this case. The seller did not have good title to sell and thus are guilty of handling stolen goods, which is a criminal offence. The ins and outs of how they got the car is neither here nor there. Your friend is an innocent victim and the auction company are on very thin ice indeed.

[Feebee_71]

What doesn't make sense to me in this case is this...........

 

The auction company buy a car from a seller and (presumably) gives them an agreed sum of money for it. They they put the car in an auction and sell it to the OP's friend who pays cash for it.

 

Where does the cloned credit card come into it?

 

Was it a case of the car was bought using the cloned credit card and then sold on to the auction house? Surely in that case the Auction house is also an innocent victim of the [EDIT] with the cloned credit card? And if so, why have the company of the cloned credit card taken money directly from the Auction house?

 

Feebee_71

Edited September 4, 2010 by Feebee_71
added extra information

[wheelergeezer]

I agree the credit card part is confusing. But innocent victim or not, the aution company sold the car to this friend and as such in the new knowledge from the police that the car is impounded as stolen, they must refund the buyer.

[determindator]

I spoke to friend tday to clarify the situation. He told me originally in between his Best Man duties at a wedding but i've got the facts now.

Firstly, the car was bought from Auction with a cloned credit card by the fraudster. The friend then saw the car advertised in Auto Trader and bought the car privately, handing over cash, to fraudster. Three months later friend is stopped by Police as car registered as stolen. It transpires the Auction house informed Police it was stolen. Did they do that when they had to give the money back to credit card company and wanted their compensation for their loss? Friend clarifying this at moment. It seems they are claiming it's their property. Friend bought in good faith from seller so car is not stolen by him, It looks like he's caught with the loss which seems unfair. I think it was the responsibility of the Auction House for which they should have insurance cover against such occurrences.

 

The Auction House name is Scottish Auction Houses in Leeds.

[BrazilianCCK]

I think your friend needs to consult a solicitor on this one as there are a number of laws and statutes that overlap here

[wheelergeezer]

VERY different situation to yesterday then. I wondered why it didn't make sense.

 

OK, the car belongs to the original seller who tried to sell it through the auction. The auction company will not lose other than their commission.

 

Your friend however, bought a stolen car and will not get the car back. His only chance of seeing his money again is if the police happen to find it all in the thiefs possession and a judge is happy for you to have it back.

 

In reality, it is highly unlikely he will ever see it again. Sorry to eb so negative, but that is the bottom line.

[determindator]

With fraud growing the way it is, always finding a new outlet, why is the consumer hit with the loss. I think companies should have to be insured against loss by fraud so it's not passed down the line. That's the reason the world had a money melt down, no social or moral responsibility. The sooner the consumer is better protected the better.

 

Thanks guys for your replies. Know what you mean by overlapping statutes but I have hope the case will be successful, after all the Auction House accepted the cloned card, their problem.

[wheelergeezer]

What company????

 

Your friend bought a car privately, not from any company. The car was stolen. It has nothing to do with any company at all.Where did your friend meet with the seller? Was the car registered to the seller at his home address? Did your friend checkj their ID matched that of the V5c?

 

It is all too easy to blame someone else, but the bottom line is that your friend donated a large amount of cash to a criminal.

[determindator]

I will check with friend if car registered at address where sold and what ID checked. I can appreciate where you're coming from Wheeler but this is where the statutes overlap. When the car was bought by friend from fraudster it was not reported stolen which he checked. It was reported stolen three months after he purchased car. The car was reported 'stolen' by the Auction House so they could get it back. You can say it's not stolen, but sold irresponsibly by the Auction House to a fraudster with a cloned credit card. The fraudster could not have sold it on if the Auction House had not sold it to him. At this point I don't know if the Auction House did the proper security checks which is another avenue to explore. I would expect them to ring the credit card company who would in turn contact the customer with the details they have in their records. When they speak to their customer they would find someone else is using the card. The onus has to stop with someone in credit card transactions and I hope it shows the Auction House or Credit card company were at fault. Car or money is then given back to friend. Happy Days!

[shining Light]

I have to agree with Wheeler. The credit card obviously passed the usual checks (the auction house wouldn't have let the car go otherwise) because it was a "cloned card" not a stolen card. I am sure this matter would have been reported to the police as soon as the fraud came to light.

 

If I am reading this correctly, the "refunded" money will have gone back to the original owner of the car who put it into the auction.

 

The auction house will have to sell the car again.

 

I might be wrong but I suspect your friend didn't carry out an HPI check. I'm assuming he went to an address to buy it (and didn't meet in a Pub car park) so he can tell the Police where the fraudster lives. If not, then your friend has almost no chance of ever seeing his money again and as has been said already, he will not get the vehicle back either.

[Bookworm]

I will check with friend if car registered at address where sold and what ID checked. I can appreciate where you're coming from Wheeler but this is where the statutes overlap. When the car was bought by friend from fraudster it was not reported stolen which he checked. It was reported stolen three months after he purchased car. The car was reported 'stolen' by the Auction House so they could get it back. You can say it's not stolen, but sold irresponsibly by the Auction House to a fraudster with a cloned credit card. The fraudster could not have sold it on if the Auction House had not sold it to him. At this point I don't know if the Auction House did the proper security checks which is another avenue to explore. I would expect them to ring the credit card company who would in turn contact the customer with the details they have in their records. When they speak to their customer they would find someone else is using the card. The onus has to stop with someone in credit card transactions and I hope it shows the Auction House or Credit card company were at fault. Car or money is then given back to friend. Happy Days!

Hmmm, not so sure, Termi my love.

 

The way I understand it, it goes like this:

 

Original Owner puts the car for auction -> auction house auctions car -> man buys car -> auction house pays monies to OO, minus their commission -> man sells car to your friend.

At some point over the last few weeks, CC owner discovers large transaction on his card, reports it to his bank, they investigate, bla-bla, transaction turns out to have been fraudulent, CC supplier makes a chargeback to CC owner, which leaves AH out of pocket and without car. AH then reports the car stolen, police stops your friend, takes the car back, which now belongs to the AH, since they have "paid" for the car (however reluctantly in this instance!), stolen goods are returned to AH (rightful owner) and your mate has been had.

 

I have to say that in this instance, I doubt very much that your mate will ever see a penny or the car again. Nobody's fault but the crook's, he's the only one against whom your mate would have a valid claim, IMO.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Bookworm, thanks for that. I had totally failed to get what was going on here but that makes sense.

Agree with your final paragraph!

[determindator]

Thanks for feedback guys, but I'm more optimistic on this one. So, to up date then. The Auction Hse has offered a settlement of half the amount. This means they know they are in a very precarious position. Half the amount is not doing it for the friend, and in this scenario with it being a substantial amount of money, I don't blame him as I wouldn't accept either. My optimism come from knowing the procedures of security checks on card transactions over a certain amount, having been in banking for 20yrs (not now though Lol!) Thoughts are to instruct the Barrister to say very loudly to Auction Hse 'You will have to explain in Court how this amount was authorised to accept, do you want to do that?' Also, it transpires companies should be insured for fraud and not in their interest not to be covered, as in situations like this.

 

There are three police forces on the case of finding Mr Fraudster, see how that progresses. They are checking how the add was place in Auto Trader.

[determindator]

The car has been returned to family friend by Auction House. It did help family friend kept ownership papers of car so Auction house could not rail road a sale. The case was settled before going to Court.