Council Ticket for Private Hire Car

[sploits]

Hi,

 

My father has a bus business and has just recieved a parking ticket from our local council (Copeland). My father was parked in the main street of our local town where there is a sign to say BUSES ONLY and there are no yellow lines (also there is a sign at the start of th road saying loading only). He quickly went to the bank to pay some money in and on his return the local traffic warden was booking the vehicle. My father has appealed against the ticket and the reponse he got today was:

"The vehicle (reg mark) was parked in a bus bay on Lowther Street. A bus means a motorvehicle constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers and for this reason your vehicle is not classed as a bus. The penalty charge has been issued correctly".

My father was in his private hire Citroen Berlingo so I can see their reason about the bus comment but would there be anyway around this? The traffic warden has been hunting my fathers buses down recently due to a private matter (jealousy on the traffic wardens behalf) but I doubt we could prove that. Any help would be great.

 

Thanks,

 

Sploits

[TheBogsDollocks]

Can you link to the location via google streetview and confirm if the bay and signage shown is current? Also upload both sides of the PCN for scrutiny.

[sploits]

Hi TBD, I havent got the PCN with me (my father has itr and I'm stuck at work).

Here is the link for the google:

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=54.548201,-3.58864&spn=0.002116,0.004823&z=18&layer=c&cbll=54.548253,-3.588756&panoid=gV0hpSqo1IbHDOD8XSa8Vg&cbp=12,271.67,,0,23.72

(my dad was parked basically where the red fiesta is)

Thanks for your input so far

[TheBogsDollocks]

May have found something to exploit.

 

Can you confirm what the sign adjacent to the bus bay says?

 

According to the traffic order (see link) the bay is listed in Schedule 26 as being "

No Waiting Except for Buses between 10.00am and 6.00pm on any day, Waiting Limited to 1 Hour, Return

Prohibited within 1 hour.

 

http://tro.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/files/CO4.pdf

 

Therefore the sign should reflect this restriction and the order under article 22(2) advises that the restriction must be indicated using a 1028.3 bay marking with a diagram 661.1 sign.

 

(2) No person shall cause or permit any vehicle, other than a bus to wait between the hours

of 10.00 am and 6.00 pm on any day in the lengths of road or sides of road specified in

 

Schedule 26

to this Order which are identified by signs conforming to Diagram Nos

661.1 VARIANT and 1028.3 of the 2002 Regulations indicating a waiting area for

buses only: -

(a) for a longer period than one hour, or

(b) if a period of less than one hour has elapsed since the termination during

the said hours of the last period of waiting (if any) by that vehicle on the

same side of road or length of road;

The sign in streetview does not look like a permitted variant of diagram 661.1 (I can not see it perfectly to be certain though) and I do not know if the sign shown is current hence why I need your confirmation. If the current sign is not a permitted variant then the council has not signed the bay in accordance with the law and the bay is not a bona fide bus bay as defined by the order. Below is a link where you can find diagram 661.1 and how it may be varied.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/2/made

[sploits]

Hi TBD, I will send my father down to see what the sign says and will post back ASAP. Thank you for everything you have done so far.

[sploits]

My dad has been down and informs me that the sign has a blue P on it, a picture of a bus and then the text 10am-6pm and that is it.

am i right in thinking the sign should look similar to this:

 

The variants doesn't say that the sign should be missing the other text (as sign above). Am I right? What can we do about this? Thank you for all your help so far, its greatly appreciated

[sailor sam]

If the PCN code is 47 I would say it is the wrong contravention as it relates to a restricted bus stop or stand and this clearly isn't. As far as I know, a bus stop is where a bus operating on a stage carriage service along a prescribed route, stops to pick up and set down passengers. Such stops covered under code 47 do not require a traffic order but must be marked correctly by having a thick yellow line along the length of the bay and supported by a yellow plate with a clearway symbol with the wording 'No stopping except buses' on it. There should also be a bus stop 'flag' present.

 

If the code is a 23 'Parked in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle' then this would possibly be correct. however, i'm not sure the sign is positioned correctly.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[sploits]

Thanks Sailor Sam, my father is out of town at the minute but I will get him to either drop the PCN off tonight and I will get i loaded up or I will get as much info as I can over the phone (finding out what pcn code was issued).

 

Cheers

[buzby]

Berlingo is a Bus? C'mon! It's a taxi if anything, and it wasn;t even being used for those purposes when he went into the bank. He might have got away with it on a Taxi stance, but as a bus stance/parking - he'll not get anywhere unless he can fault the TRO as being inapplicable to non-PSV.

[sploits]

Apologies bubzy, I meant to change the title but it slipped my mind!

TRO = traffic regulation order? (at a guess)

PSV = Public Service Vehicle?

[sailor sam]

Apologies bubzy, I meant to change the title but it slipped my mind!

TRO = traffic regulation order? (at a guess)

PSV = Public Service Vehicle?

 

Your dad operates a 'bus business' and you don't know what a PSV is? Public Service Vehicle although it is now PCV; Passenger Carrying Vehicle.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Edited August 31, 2010 by sailor sam

[sploits]

Your dad operates a 'bus business' and you don't know what a PSV is? Public Service Vehicle although it is now PCV; Passenger Carrying Vehicle.

 

Well as I have no ties with the business then NO I didn't know what PSV stood for. I am a Q.S. not a bus driver. I deal with EV's but I wouldn't expect my dad to know what that stood for. Same as PCV, I wouldn't know what that meant unless you had put the meaning afterwards. But this isnt about my knowledge of what certain things stand for, its about if anything can be done about the ticket. If he has to pay it then he has to pay it but if there is something that gives him the slight chance of not having to pay it due to any reason then like everybody who comes on these forums looking for advice then I would like to know about it.

 

Thanks

[sailor sam]

You obviously changed your mind somewhere as you asked Buzby to clarify what PSV meant and now you seem to have it.

 

As I previously indicated, if it's a code 47 then I would say it's the wrong contravention.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Edited August 31, 2010 by sailor sam
OP edited post from the original one I read and responed accordingly (post 11)

[sploits]

Obviously changed my mind???? Nope Google is a powerful friend when people are not sure what things mean. But I could have been well off with that.

Never mind you obviously have more knowledge on this sort of thing than I obvioulsy do!

Edited September 1, 2010 by sploits
Post 13 was changed after original posting

[buzby]

Sorry, brain-fade - PCV. To have anby hope of challenging, he'd need to assert the viehicle in the bay was compliant, and as the PA stated the '8 or more passengers' that first the bill. It may be better to take the discounted hit, than try to appeal. If the vehicle was on a larger vehicle base it might be worth arguing, but not a Berlingo. As this was on-street, I's wager the Regulation Orders are compliant (because of the creation of the Bus Stop, unless it has been this for a very long time). I could see the possibility of a claim in mitigation, but not the core issue - the wrong vehicle being in the wrong place!

[sploits]

Ok thanks for that buzby, I think its going to be best if he begrudgingly pays it. Also don't worry about brain-fade, I didn't even know what PCV meant

[TheBogsDollocks]

My dad has been down and informs me that the sign has a blue P on it, a picture of a bus and then the text 10am-6pm and that is it.

am i right in thinking the sign should look similar to this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21380[/ATTACH]

 

The variants doesn't say that the sign should be missing the other text (as sign above). Am I right? What can we do about this? Thank you for all your help so far, its greatly appreciated

 

What your dad describes does not appear to be a variant of diagram 661.1. see link to the DfT working drawings.

 

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/workingdrawings/regulatoryp600series/611timelimitedparking3sheets.pdf

 

I suggest that you should appeal, if the appeal is submitted within the discount period then the discount is usually re-offered should the appeal fail.

 

We still need to see both sides of the PCN as often they are not lawfully correct and this is a strong appeal point. So if time hold the appeal until we give our comments on the PCN.

 

In addition to any PCN points I think it worthwhile appealing by saying that the sign used in conjunction with the bus bay is not a variant of diagram 661.1 and therefore the council has not satisfied article 22(2) in the council's traffic order. As such the alleged bus bay is not a bus bay as defined by the order and cannot be enforced as one.

 

I would also mention that even if the sign placed was a variant, it fails to fully satisfy the requirement of regulation 18 of the Traffic Order Procedures 1996.

 

(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road.

 

The order advises that the bay is limited waiting with no return and this is not reflected in the sign and as such it can be argued that the council has failed to comply with reg 18 above.

 

Once I see the PCN I can piece the points all together to give your dad a reasonable chance and at least make the council work for his money.

[TheBogsDollocks]

On reading the wording of the order I'm not yet convinced your dad even contravened the order. This is what is says;

 

(2) No person shall cause or permit any vehicle, other than a bus to wait between the hours

of 10.00 am and 6.00 pm on any day in the lengths of road or sides of road specified in

Schedule 26 to this Order which are identified by signs conforming to Diagram Nos

661.1 VARIANT and 1028.3 of the 2002 Regulations indicating a waiting area for

buses only: -

(a) for a longer period than one hour, or

(b) if a period of less than one hour has elapsed since the termination during

the said hours of the last period of waiting (if any) by that vehicle on the

same side of road or length of road;

 

I interpret this as being no vehicle other than a bus can wait between the hours of 10.00am to 6pm on any day in Lowther Street for a longer period than 1 hour.

When you look at schedule 26 it is clear the intention was to limit buses to only one hour with no return within one hour. However, due to the wording of article 22(2) I'd say the council has inadvertently allowed any class of vehicle to wait in the bay for a period not exceeding 1 hour. If my interpretation is correct then your dad did not contravene the order but did what it permits.

Other views would be welcome.

[wheelergeezer]

Just my tuppanec worth, but I totally agree with my dear friend (choking as he speaks) Buzby. There is no way on God's earth that a berlingo would ever be classed as a bus. As also mentioned, he was not even using it as a bus. Just popping off for some chores.

[TheBogsDollocks]

It would seem, according to the order, that between the hours of 10am and 6pm the bay is available for any class of vehicle for a limited period of an hour and therefore Berlingo, tractor, horse and carriage, or HGV no contavention occurred.

[sailor sam]

I think this all hinges on the pcn code. Has the OP said what it is yet?

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[TheBogsDollocks]

I think this all hinges on the pcn code. Has the OP said what it is yet?

 

My father has appealed against the ticket and the reponse he got today was:

"The vehicle (reg mark) was parked in a bus bay"

 

This is all we have to go on at the moment.

[sploits]

Morning,

Havent had chance to get the PCN or find out what code it was (my dad as out of the county on business). I will speak to him this morning and get the code and then will drive round to his house tonight and get the PCN so I can get it scanned up.

 

I would like to take this opportunity to thank TBD, your info and knowledge on this matter is fantastic and very helpful.

 

I will post back my findings ASAP to let you know.

 

Thanks again

[sploits]

Hi just me again,

 

I have spoken to my dad and he has told me that the PCN contains code 23. He is on his way into our local town on business (not the bank this time ) and I have told him to get a quick picture of the sign in question. I am also going to nip round tonight to get the PCN so I can scan it up.

 

Thank you again for all your help so far

[sploits]

Hi again,

 

My dad has been down and he now tells me that the sign is different to that on Google Streetview and to what he told me yesterday (I think he was just agreeing to what I was telling him yesterday. I apologise about that).

 

The sign has the blue 'P' in the top left hand corner, a picture of a bus in the top right hand corner and has the following text

 

10am - 6pm

1 hour

No return within 1 hour

 

So it looks like the sign does come under a variant of 661.1

 

Is there anything else that can be done or is it now best to just pay the ticket?

TBD I tried to read through one of your posts ( Post No 18 ) and I can't figure it out to see where there may be some chance of getting off with the ticket (but as stated before I'm not fully clued up with the laws and bylaws of the council and their parking regulations).

 

Thanks