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count orlok

1st Credit back after 18 months holiday!

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Excuse the length of this first post, but is covers a period of about 2 years, and an alleged debt that I thought had gone away.

 

Got a Citi card quite a while ago, so long ago can't remember when, but it defiantly was well before 2007. Never had a big balance on it, and never missed a payment. Towards the end of 2008 I got into financial difficulty and a short while later was forced to retire. Now live on a reduced state pension topped up with pension credits, partner on ICB with heart condition. At this point I had not heard of CAG, and had sent proof of benefits/income along with expenditure and list of money owed to all creditors.

 

Took advice from various bodies such as NDL (who where a great deal of help and reassurance that DCAs had virtually no power other than what they can get you to believe [knowledge is power]), and wrote to all creditors asking them to suspend payments, none accepted this so offered and started paying token payments to all. It was very hard to get bank details to set up standing orders, some refused to give me details and ignored all my requests for such; these were the catalogue companies to whom on the advice of NDL I sent CCA requests. I was paying all the others, even though most were still bleating on about non-payment.

 

A couple of weeks after supplying me with payments details Citi sent me a DN. I thought is was an automatic response to the reduced payments, and wrote to them confirming I had contacted the advice bodies on the enclosed OFT leaflet. The DN was dated 4 December 2008 (a Thursday, combined with the Xmas post, the letter did not have arrive until 13 December), and gave me until 19 December to pay off the 180 odd arrears. On the last day of 2008 they defaulted the account, and on 7 January 2009 they terminated the agreement and asked for the full 700 odd outstanding.

 

Around this time, although most of my creditors were getting paid, most would not accept this until backed up by letter and I&E from recognised debt advisors, so got said from PayPlan. I sent a copy of this to Citi in response to their termination letter. About a month later I got a letter I thought was from Citi saying they had assigned the my contract to 1st Credit, the account number had some extra numbers on it and the balance had changed. I was very angry about this as I had kept them fully informed at all times and was paying what I could afford. When I calmed down I realised there was something not quite right about the letter. As I had never heard of 1st Credit I did a web search and found out lots of interesting things about them. So I wrote to Citi informing them that someone was using forged letters to try and get money meant for them, inviting them to confirm or otherwise that they wished me to stop paying them. Needless to say I received no reply to this letter from Citi.

 

A little later I got a letter of introduction from 1st credit. It was this company that caused me to find and join CAG. As I did not recognise the account number or balance claimed I sent 1st a CCA. They replied saying they would ask their "client" for the document, some stuff about not needing to supply a copy of the DoA and LoP. They went past the 12 days so I cancelled the SO to Citi, and wrote back to 1st Credit saying I was unable to phone, and until they supplied the CCA I was not prepared to discuss. I mentioned I had seen their company mentioned in very bad light on the BBC programme Panorama, and the first introduction I got from them was a forged letter about an account I do not recognise, followed by demands for money I did not even realise I owed. So they could not be surprised at my asking for proof considering there are a plethora of scams aimed at the old and vulnerable to con them out of their money.

 

They relied saying they would pass this info on to their clients, and later I received copies of statements from Citi. I wrote back to 1st Credit reminding them of their obligations under the 1974 CCA. I received nothing for about 4 months, then got a letter from Citi about section 75 and clause 24.8. This did not affect me so was for info only and needed no response. A month later (half way through July) I got a letter from Citi saying as I had no account with them they did not need to supply a CCA, nor were they making any claim against me for any money (I never CCAed them it was sent to 1st Credit). They added that my right to be provided with this information ended with the assignment to 1st Credit; what assignment, I was never supplied with a NoA?

 

A couple of months later I got 2 identical letters from Citi saying they were still trying to find my agreement, but to continue to make payments otherwise my CRF could be affected (they had already defaulted me while I was making payments). I did not answer this letter. A month later I got a letter from 1st Credit offering me differing discounts if I paid in a week, month or 2 months. I did not answer this letter.

 

Now coming up to date, 11 months from last contact and well over 18 months from the original request I get another letter from 1st Credit; stapled to the letter are reams of paper they claim satisfies their obligations under section 77/78. What I have received appears to be copies of Citi agreements from 2003 and 2009. Under the title of the earlier version are added 2 heading titled Creditor: and Debtor; with Citi as the former and myself as the latter, with my name and address at the time. The later agreement has below the heading, "This agreement is between us, Citi... and you: with my present name and address. There is no signature or account number.

 

Not quite sure how to answer this. I know that under the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983, they do not have to supply any more. In fact they did not even have to supply my name and address, but without a signature or account number this means nothing. I never took out a "Loan" with 1st Credit even if they have entered one on my CRF. This doesn't bother me to much though as even if it was not trashed I have done with credit.

 

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Edited by count orlok

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Hi,

As you are aware, they cannot take you to court without a signed agreement but they can bleat and cry as much as they want as they have supplied what they think is enough.

Personally, I'd ignore the muppets and if they did try to get it through the courts you would have a defence and even if you had a dodgy judge, you could always hit them with the unlawful termination as they didn't give you enough time to rectify


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You could try the following letter:

 

Amending to suit and make sure that the followingf is included and hi-lighted:If you intend to send a reconstituted copy of the CCA you must declare the reason why it has been reconstituted and if the original exists and in what form (microfiche) etc.

 

Dear Sirs,

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

This account is in dispute .

On xx/xx/2009 I wrote to xxxxxxxxx requesting that xxxxxxx supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account.

In response to this request I was supplied a mere Application Form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The document sent purporting to be a Credit Agreement does not contain any of the Prescribed Terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the Prescribed Terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required. Suffice to say none of the Terms are present in the document suplied.

Since this document does not contain the required Prescribed Terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states:

127(3) The Court shall not make an Enforcement Order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of Agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with Regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the Prescribed Terms of the Agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection.

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I refer to page 5 of the guidance which states;

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit Agreement to confirm I am liable to you or any organisation, which you represent for this alleged debt, if you cannot do so I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

Since the supplied Agreement is unenforceable it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for your client to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days

 

I trust this out lines the situation

Print name do not sign


Every journey begins with a single step :):)

 

Please note: I have no qualifications in this area - my advice is learned from the wonderful members of this Forum. Thanks to you all for your help.

 

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The only person entitled to your Personal Finance details is a Judge not a DCA

 

Move all banking activity to another banking group if you have a dispute - your funds can be used to offset debts within the same group.

Be careful with Banking details (card/account numbers) as these can be used to take unauthorised payments.

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ignore the fools until you get a copy of the credit agreement, next letter they sent will no doubt mention hsbc and the court case

 

I have 2 accounts with these numpties and they refused my offer so told them to take me to court, that was 6 months ago, I am expecting my next raft of letters in January as they go on a yearly cycle, where I will re-offer my original offer, minus inflation and we will wait another year - you cant reason with morons


PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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This is what the letter said:

 

"Dear Mr Orlok

Re: Copy of agreement/Contract

Ref: XXXXXXX

We attach a 'True Copy' {the use of grammar in this form indicates the writer of this letter knows it is not a True Copy. I doubt it was intentional but nevertheless is a bit of an "own goal"} of the relevant agreement which fulfils our obligations under Section 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act. {the agreement they have sent me is for a credit card, on my CFR they show a defaulted loan.}

a) We invite your proposals for settling this outstanding debt. {they have yet to prove a debt, and without a NoA and incorrect DN they’ll have trouble)

b) If you are claiming that you did not complete and sign this document then we would ask you to confirm this in writing to us. Please be assured that the matter will be investigated immediately. {the document they have provided has no signature or anything to complete. This is obvious without an investigation.}

c) Where an address is detailed that you do not reside in we would ask you to comment on whether you ever resided at the address and, if so, the period of your occupation. {if they had the correct documentation they would already know this, I am not going to do their job for them}

d) If we believe that a fraud has taken place against you w will advise you. In these circumstances we would recommend that the matter is reported to the local Police and 1st Credit Ltd will of course co-operate fully to ensure the matter is thoroughly investigated. {this looks like a threat of the police to me, or do they mean for me to report them for fraud, such as forged documents. In my experience the Police do not investigate and just give you a crime number}

Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Scanned squiggle

 

1st Credit Ltd"

 

I have left off the addresses and footer but there was no date on this letter which combined to the phraseology used leads me to think this is a generic. I have added my comments in red. Further comments are invited. I am still formulating my reply but i will defiantly be using input form your answer to this thread.

 

Cheers folks :-)

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Definitely a generic letter. Its a rehash of a letter they regularly sent out .My OH got one of these 18 months ago. It used to say A. they had sent an edited agreeement and if you confirmed it was your signature they'd send the full document and invite payment proposals.. B. if it wasn't your signature then provide them with evidence of your signature from a passport etc. C and D are identical.

 

They've reworked it to let them send it out where they have got diddly squat for an agreeement. Its true purpose is to trap unsuspecting people into acknowledging the debt somehow in their response.

 

My OH ignored it 18 months ago. Apart from some letters here and there asking OH to contact some debt support team not even a phone call.

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Hi there

In another post I'm trying to find out if we can throw CRIMINAL charges against these Barstewards. (No offence to some of my great Bar Tending colleagues ).

 

If they've attempted to forge your signature or tampered with documents in any way whatsover for the purposes of getting money then I think we can Nab them.

 

In any case demanding money without due authority is tantamount to EXTORTION which carries SEVERE penalties including SERIOUS JAIL TIME too.

 

Ensure that every piece of paper you get from them is CAREFULLY retained so if there are any court cases STING THEM FOR AS MUCH AS YOU CAN GET.

 

NEVER deal on the phone with this lot (or any DCA), Never set up DD's --SO's only and if they don't accept SO's because they refuse to give their Bank details then a Court wont penalize you --you've attempted to pay.

 

Send any letters RECORDED DELIVERY.

 

Shows what miserable low lifes these people are hounding Pensioners on Pension Income support.

 

There's no limit to the depths these people will sink to.

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited by jimbo45

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I do not use recorded delivery for all letters to DCAs because of the cost. If I send a few letters a month, by the time you add the cost of getting to the Post Office to the cost of registering the letter and postage, it works out that I am paying more money to the PO than my creditors.

 

If I am near a PO I get proof of postage; unless registered mail is specified by law such as for a NoA, a judge will accept if a letter was posted it arrived. As i can't allway get to the Post office I allways send a backup by e-mail, which can be poved to have been sent/received.

 

As to the criminal aspect; in the past where there has been diffinate fraud commited with my cards/accounts, the Police do not have the resorces to invstigate and just give you a crime number.

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[

 

Hi, I am being taken to court by Ist credit/LCS and I strongly believe that they have faked a letter from the bank. The court case is for an overdraft.

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1st have answered my reply to the above letter, by sending a load of statements. It seems their position is while the CCA has no signature, the fact that while with Citi payments were being made proves the debt.

 

Aparently as fraudsters do not repay debts I am liable, so could I start repaying them.

 

At no time have I ever mentioned fraud; they keep going on about it. Not sure whether they are threatening me with the police or they are accusing me of fraud?

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Evening all:lol:

 

Of course the ruddy debt exists! You are just asking if Worst Credit have the right to be chasing this and without an agreement, they can't.

I would be writing back and asking them, as they have supplied a "reconstruction", whether they actually have a SIGNED agreement in their possession.

You could alsp mention (if you wish) about the DN. 4th -19th= 15 days. Take away postage and you either had only 13 or 11 days to rectify.


If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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I've asked them about the signed agreement, they refuse to answer or even aknowledge the question. Their view is as the debt exists, and there is no fraud they do not need a signed agreement; I'll just have to remind them they do. As for the DN, it was posted late in the week so with sunday took even longer to arive. I'll not mention it, but if they come up with a valid agreement I'll set up a standing order to pay off the arrears at a rate "I" can afford.

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They sent the same letter and agreement in answer to my last letter, to which I answered by refering them to my previous letters. In the meantime they sent another template letter stating as the sum remains outstanding they now intend (not may) to take legal proceedings against me. They further add that should I still fail to pay they will get an attachment of earnings and a charging order on my house; I am retired on a state pension and have been for many years, and live in social housing, so that aint gonna happen.

 

Not quite sure how to answer their ignorance (or is it just lack of knowledge, low intelegance, or poor schooling) and rudeness in failing to give me answeres to my questions. So just sent them a 31.16, which they will no doubt also ignore.

 

They also now are refering to Citi as their clients, where they ealier claimed to have purchased the debt. Is there any chance they will take me to court without a signed agreement, and can they if Citi are their clients?

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No need to worry about LCS Solicitors they ceased to ''practice'' on 02/06/2010 but have still been sending out letters

bearing the name of R D Marr as principal solicitor he is no practicing I have this confirmed in writing by The Solicitors

Regulation Authority and they and 1st Crud are being investigated.

I f you have any letters from LCS after 02/06 send a complaint to The OFT as soon as possible.


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As yet I have had no solicitors letters, just from 1st cretins

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you repond to their threats and stupidity by not reponding, the more you encourage these fools by responding the more carp they send you.

 

I have 2 on the go with these muppets and the last letter I send to their pet inhouse no longer practising solictior was simply

 

"You have had my response, if you are not happy I will See you in court", that was 10 months ago


PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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I doubt you will get much more from 1St . from now on,


Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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Just had another letter. It says it will be passed to the approprisate desk, from which it will be answered later.

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Oh dear...

 

CPR them and watch them squirm :) If they wan't to use threats of legal action as a debt collection tool they are in deep **** :)

 

Report them to TS, the OFT, the CSA and the SRA :)


"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

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I sent them a registered letter containing a CPR 13.16 request pointing out it was not CCA section 78 so a real copy is needed. This obviously crossed with their last letter as in that they said that under Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 they do not need a signature. The fact that they are using CC (CNaCoD) reg '83 more or less proves they have no signed agreement. Plus the OC have said they don't have to supply one as they offloaded the aleged debt to 1st.

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Many DCAs and OCs make up the act to suit, alledgedly...


"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

If you do PM, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private ;)

BB 13 - DCAs/banks and solicitors 0.

 

I get a fresh start to get on with learning to live with severe disabilities when they could have had something if they'd been understanding...

 

<--- If you feel I've helped, please twinkle my star :)

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They're still sending letters. Aparently an agreement does not need a signature or account number to be legally enforacble!

 

I guess I'll just have to go to court then and accept I'll have to pay 1st cretins a £1 month out of my pension credits, although I'll have to go back to court to get it reduced when my partner has their Incapacity Benefit stopped.

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If they were to take it to court..then they would need to produce an agreement with your signature on it..They hav complied with the cca request ..they can omit sigs..But to enforce THE

Y would need the original for court

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If they were to take it to court..then they would need to produce an agreement with your signature on it..They hav complied with the cca request ..they can omit sigs..But to enforce THEY would need the original for court

 

Exactly what I have been trying to tell them. They are the ones who are saying otherwise, I was trying to be ironic by suggesting even if they were right, they'd be lucky to get a £1 a month. They'd make more in savings on postage etc. if they just forgot about it.

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