Double that changes to a single yellow line

[mygive]

Hi, new on here.

I just wanted to ask if i have a chance to challenge this PCN.

I parking on what i thought was a unused old single yellow line that is aboutthree meters long.

I say unused because the council but in double yellow lines which stop about acar length from the end of the old SYL. The DYL has a end bar and the SYL whichcontinues from it also has an end bar. There is also a sign which i think meansclearway (round red circle with red diagonal with blue back ground) that says'Mon - Sat 8am - 630pm' which is positions at the end of the DYLs.

I have learns on here that you don’t need a sign for DYLs solets assume the council will say that he sign is for the SYL and so perhapsthat sign post only refers to the single yellow line, but then why is it notlocated at the end of the single yellow line or the direction of itsenforcement indicated on the sign? And if the old single yellow line was meantto be retained in force, then why does it not have a start bar?

 

Pictures available if needed.

 

All opinions welcome as I feel I should challenge them onthis one.

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

We will need to see pics before we could pass an opinion.

 

Please Note

 

 

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I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Jamberson]

The way you describe it, I can't see anything wrong. You are right, the council will say the sign applies to the SYL as it does. A single yellow line usually has a sign. The one you describe, blue circle with red bar, means no waiting (ie, no parking), and it states when. This is correct.

 

It is a little odd that it's at one end of the SYL, but it can only be placed where practical. I am not sure what you mean by the SYL not having a "start bar"?

[mygive]

Here is the images...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21291[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]21292[/ATTACH]

[mygive]

these seems to apply to my case..? take from http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/trafficsignsmanualchapter5.pdf

 

PROHIBITION OF WAITING MARKINGS

20.3 The markings consist of either a single or a

double continuous yellow line laid at approximately

250 mm from the edge of the carriageway. The

double line (diagram 1018.1) indicates that waiting

of vehicles on that side of the road is prohibited at

any time during a period of at least four consecutive

months. The sign to diagram 637.3 is used only if the

time period is at least four but less than twelve

months. The single line (diagram 1017) indicates that

the prohibition applies for some lesser time (of day,

week or year). A transverse mark must be placed at

each end of a line, where one type of line changes to

another (see figure 20-1), where it abuts a bay

marking or a zig-zag line and at a point where a

vertical sign indicates the time period changes, but

the road marking remains the same. The restriction

imposed by these markings applies from the centre of

the road to the highway boundary on the side of the

road that the marking is laid (including any lay-bys).

[mygive]

this seems to apply to my case..? take from Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 5: Road Markings (2003) http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/trafficsignsmanualchapter5.pdf

 

PROHIBITION OF WAITING MARKINGS

20.3 The markings consist of either a single or a double continuous yellow line laid at approximately 250 mm from the edge of the carriageway.

The double line (diagram 1018.1) indicates that waiting of vehicles on that side of the road is prohibited at any time during a period of at least four consecutive months. The sign to diagram 637.3 is used only if the time period is at least four but less than twelve months. The single line (diagram 1017) indicates that the prohibition applies for some lesser time (of day, week or year). A transverse mark must be placed at each end of a line, where one type of line changes to another (see figure 20-1), where it abuts a bay marking or a zig-zag line and at a point where a vertical sign indicates the time period changes, but the road marking remains the same. The restriction imposed by these markings applies from the centre of the road to the highway boundary on the side of the road that the marking is laid (including any lay-bys).

[sailor sam]

Here is the images...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21291[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]21292[/ATTACH]

 

Invalid attachents apparently.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

Please click my reputation button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Jamberson]

Hi.

 

Your photos don't seem to work. Can you try posting them again?

 

The regulations you quote say: "A transverse mark must be placed at each end of a line, [or] where one type of line changes to another"

Does the place you parked fit that description? This is what you said: "in double yellow lines which stop about a car length from the end of the old SYL. The DYL has a end bar and the SYL whichcontinues from it also has an end bar" - it is not clear if this agrees or not. We do need photos.

[mygive]

 

Second time lucky...?

[Jamberson]

"A transverse mark must be placed at each end of a line, [or] where one type of line changes to another"

 

There is a traverse mark one end, where the SYL stops, and a traverse line at the other, where it meets the DYL. So it is correct.

[mygive]

Hi

My understanding is that the SYL should have a T-Bar (transverse mark) "transverse mark must be placed at each endof a line, where one type of line changes to another".

 

 

By this I think itmeans that the SYL should start with a t-bar and then end with (its own) t-bar, and then in my case the DYL should startwith (its own) t-bar and end with its own t-bar.

 

The reason for thisis because different restrictions are enforceable “indicates that the prohibition applies for some lesser time”.

[green_and_mean]

Hi

My understanding is that the SYL should have a T-Bar (transverse mark) "transverse mark must be placed at each endof a line, where one type of line changes to another".

 

 

By this I think itmeans that the SYL should start with a t-bar and then end with (its own) t-bar, and then in my case the DYL should startwith (its own) t-bar and end with its own t-bar.

 

The reason for thisis because different restrictions are enforceable “indicates that the prohibition applies for some lesser time”.

 

Why bother asking for advice if you are just going to disagree with the advice given, which is 100% correct??

[ForestChav]

The markings look valid, if the signage is also, I don't see the problem.. Do you have pictures of the signs?

[dragonkeeper]

 

 

 

challenge this PCN. I ------>parking on what i thought was a unused old single yellow line that is about three meters long

 

 

.

 

 

.----> PROHIBITION OF WAITING MARKINGS 20.3

 

.

 

 

 

You say the PCN was for Parking, but using Prohibition of Waiting Marking 20.3 for defence.

 

green_and_mean's post #12 seems to hit a mark

 

 

 

 

dk

[ForestChav]

That infuriates me as well, if you're asking people for advice why, when it is not what you want to hear (probably because that's wrong) ignore it. It's rude.

[wheelergeezer]

 

I parking on what i thought was a unused old single yellow line

 

From the picture, the SYL looks almost new and crystal clear to me.

[green_and_mean]

Just to clarify the situation you are correct every yellow line should end in a T bar to indicate the end of the restriction. The T bar is placed at both ends of the yellow line as required and there is a T bar at the end of the double yellows as required which one do you think is missing? Even if you follow your argument that both single and double need their own T bars (which is wrong by the way) how are you going to prove it is the single line that is missing its T bar rather than the DYL missing its T bar unless you interview the painter and ask him which one he painted?

[TheBogsDollocks]

What council area is this?

[mygive]

Just to clarify the situation you are correct every yellow line should end in a T bar to indicate the end of the restriction. The T bar is placed at both ends of the yellow line as required and there is a T bar at the end of the double yellows as required which one do you think is missing? Even if you follow your argument that both single and double need their own T bars (which is wrong by the way) how are you going to prove it is the single line that is missing its T bar rather than the DYL missing its T bar unless you interview the painter and ask him which one he painted?

 

Thank you green_and_mean, you[/url] have understood what i was trying to say..! I was about to give up because of the flack i was getting from some others.

Question 1: why is it wrong to think that both SYL and DYL must terminate with t-bars?

Question 2: Could i prove the t-bar at the middle were both lines meet does not belong to the SYL because it does not comply with TSRGD (1017) Road Markings (see image)..?

[mygive]

What council area is this?

 

Lewisham, London

[green_and_mean]

Thank you green_and_mean, you have understood what i was trying to say..! I was about to give up because of the flack i was getting from some others.

Question 1: why is it wrong to think that both SYL and DYL must terminate with t-bars?

Question 2: Could i prove the t-bar at the middle were both lines meet does not belong to the SYL because it does not comply with TSRGD (1017) Road Markings (see image)..?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21318[/ATTACH]

 

 

Sorry I don't see how they fail to comply both lines do terminate with T bar? If you are saying its not 100% the same as the picture that is because the picture is of a single or double line ending where there is no other restriction, using that logic that it must match the picture it would be impossible to have yellow lines around a bend because the picture is a straight line!

[mygive]

Just for the benefit of myself, I have drawn out what I think(from reading the TSRGD) the layout of DYL and SYL were they meet (as they aretwo different parking restrictions) should look. (see image)

 

If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong. Just enlighten me and I’ll geton with paying the fine...

[green_and_mean]

Just for the benefit of myself, I have drawn out what I think(from reading the TSRGD) the layout of DYL and SYL were they meet (as they aretwo different parking restrictions) should look. (see image)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21321[/ATTACH]

 

If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong. Just enlighten me and I’ll geton with paying the fine...

 

 

Very artistic but unfortunately this is what the Department of Transport state it should look like....

 

[mygive]

Ok, i get it now. The lines joint and use the one t-bar. That means i'm busted then and will have to cough up.. Thanks for your help...

 

Do you think i could chance my luck with this?I believe this PCN has been issued incorrectly. When Ipulled into that street there was a van parked there with a space in front ofit in which I parked. The sign post had a bag over it with the word suspendedon it. I asked the builders in the van who were fixing the shop on the corner,what the suspended bag meant and they said the council place them over parkingrestriction signs that they are not using for different reasons. When Ireturned the builders and their van had gone, the bag was not over the signanymore and a parking attendant putting a ticket on the car. I explained to himwhat had happened and he said it was nothing to do with him and that I was towrite into you. I’m not sure what tomake of it but I think I have been caught up with whatever [problem] those builderswere doing to avoid the parking restrictions.

[Jamberson]

If you send that letter you have a better than zero chance that they will cancel it. Better to appeal than not, I think.