Barclays offer LESS than 50% back. Advice please

[Rebel UK]

amul

 

read my thread here : http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1346

 

The defence they offered was almost identical, I'm a little further down the line but it should help you.

 

Rebel

[baconbuttyman]

i am expecting an exact copy of that in the next few days......just pure paper shreading material, stick with it, they will pay up, hang in there

[amulrooney]

By the way, fees for allocation questionnaires should be settled by the defendant. I have noticed that some people forget to ask for this.

 

So you're telling me that the £100 the court is asking for should be paid by Barclays? Amazing. I didn't know that.

[amulrooney]

No idea about the signature thing sorry; but I wanted to make sure that you're aware; you cannot show the judge anything headed "Without Prejudice" without his/her permission. This includes their admission that they know the amount of charges and their offer. This is just to beef up BF's post above - I wasn't clear/certain that you knew this from your posts.

 

StoneLaughter, could you go into this in a bit more detail please? Not sure what this means.

 

Thanks.

[BankFodder]

If you don't understand the significance of "without prejudice" then search on it using the forum search function and you will find the answer - several times over.

 

As far as allocation fees, yes, if they settle your claim then it includes all costs and you should not witdraw the claim until you are completely reimbursed

[Si1973]

"Without prejudice" means exactly what the term suggests, i.e. that an offer is being made without prejudicing the party's legal position - ie as claimant to pursue the full amount of the claim or as defendant to defend the claim.

 

It is often used on correspondence in an attempt to settle a claim out of court and means that parties can be open in making offers without prejudicing their case should the matter ultimately end up in court.

 

Without prejudice correspondence cannot form part of a party's case in court - in other words you can't say to the judge "they offered to settle so they must accept liability" etc.

 

Sometimes correspondence is marked "without prejudice save as to costs" and this means that the terms of the offer cannot be disclosed in court but that the correspondence can be taken into account by the judge when deciding who must pay whose costs. For example a party who refused to accept, say, a 95% offer of settlement and forced a full trial may find that even if ultimately successful, the "wasted costs" of the hearing are awarded to the losing party.

[Si1973]

"Without prejudice" means exactly what the term suggests, i.e. that an offer is being made without prejudicing the party's legal position - ie as claimant to pursue the full amount of the claim or as defendant to defend the claim.

 

It is often used on correspondence in an attempt to settle a claim out of court and means that parties can be open in making offers without prejudicing their case should the matter ultimately end up in court.

 

Without prejudice correspondence cannot form part of a party's case in court - in other words you can't say to the judge "they offered to settle so they must accept liability" etc.

 

Sometimes correspondence is marked "without prejudice save as to costs" and this means that the terms of the offer cannot be disclosed in court but that the correspondence can be taken into account by the judge when deciding who must pay whose costs. For example a party who refused to accept, say, a 95% offer of settlement and forced a full trial may find that even if ultimately successful, the "wasted costs" of the hearing are awarded to the losing party.

[andybburn]

Hello everyone,

 

Stonelaughter says "In which case the fees should be "Reasonable" under the Sale of Goods and Services Act. They are not - £30 for exceeding an overdraft by 35p?!"

 

Whats the amount you go over by got to do woth it? Is this relevent?

 

I've often exceeded mine by shed loads. Will this go against me?

[Si1973]

I don't think the amount you exceed your overdraft by is relevant. The charge should be a "reasonable pre-estimate" of the administrative costs of dealing with you as a creditor. If in fact all that happened was a standard computer-generated letter was sent to you then you can argue that £30 (or £60 or £90!) was not a "reasonable pre-estimate" of those costs.

 

This is particularly the case if the same thing happened month after month (as it has done with me!) and the bank never did anything different. If the bank has actually been proactive and rung you up to talk about your account and difficulties then that would be a different matter - this has never happened to me though.

 

Don't forget also that the bank charges a penal rate of interest once you exceed your overdraft limit so it is not as if you are getting the credit for free. The bank still makes money out of you by charging interest.

[andybburn]

Actually the bank has rang once or twice (no more than twice) when i have gone particularly for over my limit. Do you think this would have a bearing?

[Si1973]

It would certainly form part of their defence to justify the fee they charge. How much of an impact it is likely to have would depend upon what sort of sums of penalty charges you are talking about and over what period.

[andybburn]

Plenty more over the six years than they have ever called about.

 

Thinking about it. If they do use that as a defence, shouldn't the charges have gone up on those occasions? If not then maybe that would be admitting all the other times they were charging too much.

[Movingon]

Plenty more over the six years than they have ever called about.

 

Thinking about it. If they do use that as a defence, shouldn't the charges have gone up on those occasions?

 

You're beginning to get there...

[Si1973]

I think that's the point. Maybe £30 was reasonable on the two occasions they called but not on any of the others

[amulrooney]

UPDATE- After waiting 10 days for Sheffield Crown Court to get Barclays to resend their COMPLETED defence, I called them to find out what was happening.

 

I spoke to a lady there who check my file and discovered that the person dealing with my case has not sent off the request to Barclays. Hmm. Probably forgotten.

 

However, good news. She contacted Barclays and they faxed it straight through. Should have a copy of it by Thursday.

[amulrooney]

Right, I'm ready to send a copy of the spreadsheet together with my note, which is detailed below. Is this ok to send? Do I need to say "with the judge's permission"?

 

Help appreciated.

I dispute that I have filed a “summary” of my claim and also that I failed to list the particulars of the claim. I refer to the letter sent to me on the 27 March 2006 by David Chapman (Customer Relations Manager) stating that the defendant actually does know the exact dates, amounts and reasons for the charges, as they have actually admitted to them and offered me a part refund on the same communication. I therefore claim that point 1 of this statement is untrue. If this is to become an issue then I will readily show this offer to the court (with the judge’s permission) as I consider that in these circumstances it would not be correct for the defendant to rely on any without prejudice action.

 

The defendant calls for me provide strict proof of each charge which is enclosed with this document. I compiled this information in conjunction with another communication from the defendant in which they provided me with the past 6 years worth of my bank statements. I therefore call that point 2 of their defence is untrue as it was the defendant who sent me the evidence I needed to collate my claim against them, therefore they readily had access to this information and are merely delaying my claim.

 

With regards to Barclays’ statement on liquidated damages, the sum specified for the breach of the contract is not a genuine pre-estimate of the loss that they will incur but is excessive and is inserted in torrem. Therefore the defendant has imposed a penalty on my account for each breach rather than an accurate approximation for the bank to send an automated, computer generated letter, generally without any human intervention.

[MISSIE]

Hi

 

I Returned My Questionaire To The Court Today, And They Confirmed That You Only Pay The £100 If The Amount Your Are Asking For From The Bank Is Over £1500. If It Is Less Then You Need Not Pay Any More Money.

 

Missie

[Robertxc]

Right, I'm ready to send a copy of the spreadsheet together with my note, which is detailed below. Is this ok to send? Do I need to say "with the judge's permission"?

 

Help appreciated.

I dispute that I have filed a “summary” of my claim and also that I failed to list the particulars of the claim. I refer to the letter sent to me on the 27 March 2006 by David Chapman (Customer Relations Manager) stating that the defendant actually does know the exact dates, amounts and reasons for the charges, as they have actually admitted to them and offered me a part refund on the same communication. I therefore claim that point 1 of this statement is untrue. If this is to become an issue then I will readily show this offer to the court (with the judge’s permission) as I consider that in these circumstances it would not be correct for the defendant to rely on any without prejudice action.

 

The defendant calls for me provide strict proof of each charge which is enclosed with this document. I compiled this information in conjunction with another communication from the defendant in which they provided me with the past 6 years worth of my bank statements. I therefore call that point 2 of their defence is untrue as it was the defendant who sent me the evidence I needed to collate my claim against them, therefore they readily had access to this information and are merely delaying my claim.

 

With regards to Barclays’ statement on liquidated damages, the sum specified for the breach of the contract is not a genuine pre-estimate of the loss that they will incur but is excessive and is inserted in torrem. Therefore the defendant has imposed a penalty on my account for each breach rather than an accurate approximation for the bank to send an automated, computer generated letter, generally without any human intervention.

Looks fine to me. Go for it.

[amulrooney]

Right, it's going.

 

Thanks for the advice peeps. Donation will be made on completion.

[amulrooney]

OOoo it's all gone quiet. How can I find out what's happening?

[CrispDust]

Me too. My AQ sent back on 24 June!

[bjhug71]

Hi,

I received an almost identical defence from Barclays, so I sent them a copy of the schedule of charges. Barclays have also just recently sent me a copy of the AQ that they have sent in which states that they have 1 witness. Just waiting for a court date now. Considering emailing Mr. Jeremiah, offering them 1 last chance for a full refund. Have already received a full refund from HSBC.

[amulrooney]

Right, we have more info.

 

I have a letter from Sheffield County Court stating upon reading both allocation questionnaires, the District Judge Directs that:-

 

The court proposes to stay these proceedings pending the outcome of Elliot -v- TSB. Any representations to be made by 1st August 2006. The court awaits your response.

 

Now, does this mean that I can still ask for my case to be heard individually? Do I have to say whay I think my case differs? I presume this Elliot case is the one that's being spoke about on other threads (which I've only briefly looked at so far).

 

Next steps advice appreciated.

[Alleycat]

Thanks for the link Karnevil!!

 

Basically, the reason the judge has ordered a stay is no longer valid as the Elliot v Lloyds case has been settled prior to a court hearing. I would suggest ringing the court to advise them of this, though be prepared to put it in writing as well.

 

Bankfodder has done a draft letter to the courts regarding this, though you may have alter it a bit to make it relevant as it was drafted in case any other cases are set up as 'test cases'.

 

Sounds like our judges 'oop north' are a bit slow on the uptake, either that or the courts are relying on donkey mail to get the message up here!

[amulrooney]

Will I ever get there?

 

I've just opened a letter from the court asking for me to explain WHY the charges are unlawful, which I thought I did in my original letter.

 

The letter says "The claimant still needs to say the legal basis he claims the charges were unlawful". I called them and explained that the charges were not an accurate estimate of what it costs them, that they are added in torrem, etc. but they're not accepting it.

 

Anybody else been asked this?

 

Advice on what to send back would be helpful.